Cave of gold bars

[HappyTrails55]

Tom, I would take issue with some of your thoughts and research. Not everything as you say it was, was. There are Records OnLine of the De la Guerra Papers and in Santa Barbara, California (of which I have personally reviewed and read) in both Spanish and English of which gives a different Historical Perspective of what apparently you believe. There are many accounts from the Historical Archives that don't jive to some of your statements on this #27 Post. Read up about Father Martinez of San Luis Obispo Mission and the Assentcia of Santa Margarita and the end of his career. Yes, there are examples that are relative to the subject. Not mere legend nor myth, but facts. And yes there were many very early exploration parties of conquistadores and mining expeditions that explored and mined in the interior of California long before 1770 and the Spanish as well as the Mexicans carried on these operations well into and just prior to the Hildago Treaty. But I'm happy that most people believe of what you believe, that leaves more for people like me. Hee,hee, sincerely........that's my 2 cents

 

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[sdcfia]

Let's put it this way, suppose you had enormous booty and had just received word from home that you were very likely going to get the heave-ho, where would you stash your booty? In your backyard where there are too many witnesses, or would you use your very competent and sophisticated trade system and truck it way up to where the map says datos insuficientes?

I can give you a lengthy answer to that question, and I will if pushed. I've done it a few times earlier at length in other threads and am tired of repeating the same stuff. Here's an outline:

1. Enormous logistics problems requiring either numerous forays or an expedition rivaling the Coronado Expedition.
2. No oral histories, rumors, campfire tales, traditions from any of the many humans en route.
3. The Apaches. Long history of violence against all things Mexican.
4. The Franciscans. New Mexico was theirs.
5. The Spanish. If they were bribable, why move the treasure at all - just hide it somewhere in Mexico.
6. The bullion. All Caballo rumors are of gold bars. Tayopa and most Mexican mines were silver mines.

I generally don't give much credence to newspaper articles, other than for their adventure content. This one is odd. It infers that the Jesuits knew what they were looking for and where, and curiously, these brothers were not apparently trying to hide their intentions. If all said in the clipping is true, one might wonder if these guys found what they were seeking and removed it later.

 

[EarnieP]

From Kessell's 'Kiva, Cross & Crown'

Page 75, describing the appointment of six Franciscans to join the Onate expedition into 'New Mexico', as provided by the 1573 ordinance.

"Just as the chosen six were about to set out "in keeping with Your Majesty's instruction that for the present only friars of this Order (Franciscans) be sent, the bishop of Guadalajara hurled an unsuccessful challenge at them. Brandishing his episcopal dignity, he avowed that churches established in New Mexico "must belong to his diocese."

 

[Real of Tayopa]

SDC, you are correct, Tayopa is a Silver Mine, but there was Gold a plenty also in the complex, also a useless netal in those days,
Pt.. The bars in the Caballo mostly were dore' bars. They did not have the facilities to refine the metal .Remember that the bars stored at Tayopa included the where-with-all to finance the revolution against Spain for which they were actually expelled.in 1767

Here s a stylized nap of the deposits, the original, which was found with other dosuments buried in a trunk in the ruins of a church, had become worn out trough handling, and it is a stylized drawing.

 

[sdcfia]

From Kessell's 'Kiva, Cross & Crown'

Page 75, describing the appointment of six Franciscans to join the Onate expedition into 'New Mexico', as provided by the 1573 ordinance.

"Just as the chosen six were about to set out "in keeping with Your Majesty's instruction that for the present only friars of this Order (Franciscans) be sent, the bishop of Guadalajara hurled an unsuccessful challenge at them. Brandishing his episcopal dignity, he avowed that churches established in New Mexico "must belong to his diocese."

Some have said that the Jesuits may have operated clandestinely in New Mexico despite a Papal Bull that gave the territory exclusively to the Franciscans, at least up to about the 1760s. I agree that Kino himself may have snuck into southern New Mexico on a spying mission searching for something specific, but as far as the Mexicans sending huge expeditions to cache bullion in New Mexico is concerned, I don't see it happening. Here's a map of select Spanish military activity in the probable period in question. Other earlier activities dating to ca 1715 to Todos Santos (not on this map) establish that the Crown had strong intel in the region, leaving bribery as the only way the Jesuits may have been active on the Rio Grande.


Campaigning on the Upper Gila, 1756
Kessell, 1971, NM Historical Review

 

[somehiker]

Hi Somehiker. The Jesuits could have had a jump start with their commercial enterprises. I'll keep it short so you don't doze off.

Some of the greatest traders in history were the Phoenicians. They were often spared the pillage of ancient conquerors so they could continue to trade for there new masters. When the Phoenician city, Carthage, was destroyed by the Romans, the Phoenicians could no longer practice their religion so they turned to the Jewish religion because they were familiar with this religion of their neighbors in the Middle East. Over the centuries, the Jews built expansive trade networks all over the world. They not only had commercial interests, in places they were interested in, but they had family connections as well as intelligence gathering networks. Their big problem was, they were at the mercy of the authorities in whatever land they lived in. They didn't have a country or a military to protect their interests, so they had to look for others to defend them. At one time, the Templars protected them and benefited from the Jew's trading skills.

If you look into it, you will find that the Jesuits were accepting of the Jews and of others with Jewish ancestry. You might also find that some of the early Spanish explorers, in the New World, had Jewish ancestry or secretly practiced the Jewish religion. Some of these ended up in New Mexico, far away from the Inquisitors in Mexico City. It could be that the Jesuits might have also benefited from the commercial skills of the Jews.

That's it in a nutshell, but it's a real interesting subject to study.

I'm familiar with some of that history, mdog.
The Jesuits were more tolerant toward the Jewish faith, unlike some of the other factions within the Roman Catholic church. Could be one of the reasons they made so many enemies.
The crypto Jews, so named because they kept their religion mostly to themselves, were also more accepting of those outside their own circles. Kinda the "don't ask/don't tell" of it's day.

 

[gollum]

I'm familiar with some of that history, mdog.
The Jesuits were more tolerant toward the Jewish faith, unlike some of the other factions within the Roman Catholic church. Could be one of the reasons they made so many enemies.
The crypto Jews, so named because they kept their religion mostly to themselves, were also more accepting of those outside their own circles. Kinda the "don't ask/don't tell" of it's day.

Are you certain about the Jesuits being more accepting towards Jews? I ask because the Jesuit Order supported the Inquisitions against Charles III and the Reformation. They looked at the Reformation as a "watered down" version of Catholicism. The Order had trash-talked Charles III since his Coronation because of that specifically. They spread rumors that he wasn't a true Catholic King, and was the reason they got caught paying rioters to keep the Esquilache Riots going in Spain in 1766. It was the final straw for Charles III, which caused him to order their suppression from all Spanish Lands Worldwide.

I don't say you are wrong, because I haven't researched or asked my Jesuit sources about that subject. I just don't think it likely because of their position on the Inquisitions (support).

Mike

 

[somehiker]

Not all Mike, and of course the society could officially NOT take a stand against non-believers or Jews in particular. The reformation was a bigger issue anyway.
I believe one of the reasons for what tolerance WAS practiced by many Jesuits, was that even though it was members of the Jewish hierarchy in general, and Judas in particular who betrayed Christ (the foundation of and justification for Roman Catholic hatred toward the Jews), the fact that Christ himself was a Jew was predominantly on their minds.

 

[EarnieP]

For those interested, also from Kessell's 'Kiva, Cross & Crown' on page 158,
---------

"At the Franciscans' custodial chapter that year (1638), Father Custos Juan de Salas named Fray Domingo guardian of the Santa Fe convento."

"At the same time, he reassigned from Santa Fe to Picuris the controversial Fray Juan de Vidania, a transfer from the Franciscan province of Michoacan who had earlier been expelled from the Society of Jesus (Jesuits)... "

"(shortly) ..."To keep the peace" (with the governor) " he (Custos Salas) sent Vidania (the expelled Jesuit) a patent as guardian of Santa Fe (withdrawing Domingo del Espiritu Santo.) ...."
--------

Interesting stuff about one of those 'inside' Jesuits in New Mexico...

 

[sdcfia]

For those interested, also from Kessell's 'Kiva, Cross & Crown' on page 158,
---------

"At the Franciscans' custodial chapter that year (1638), Father Custos Juan de Salas named Fray Domingo guardian of the Santa Fe convento."

"At the same time, he reassigned from Santa Fe to Picuris the controversial Fray Juan de Vidania, a transfer from the Franciscan province of Michoacan who had earlier been expelled from the Society of Jesus (Jesuits)... "

"(shortly) ..."To keep the peace" (with the governor) " he (Custos Salas) sent Vidania (the expelled Jesuit) a patent as guardian of Santa Fe (withdrawing Domingo del Espiritu Santo.) ...."
--------

Interesting stuff about one of those 'inside' Jesuits in New Mexico...

Yeah, Vidania was nothing but trouble for the Spanish, the Franciscans and the natives. He was the only church ally that the madman NM governor Luis de Rosas - a man of consummate evil and avarice - had in Santa Fe. They esteemed each other. Vidania ended up behind bars eventually. Interestingly, Picuris pueblo is only a few miles from Truchas Peak, site of one of NM's most interesting treasure tales - the lost gold mine of Juan Mondragon.

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Incidentally Tayopa lies on the border between Sonora and Chihuahua. In the accompanying picture Sonora lies on the ridge in the background.

Incidentally I live that Naranjal also lies on the back of the ridge in the second picture, despite Oro's beliefs.

 

[Ryano]

Knowledge of mine and cache locations must have been dangerous in the days of the Jesuit expulsion from N. America. What happened to the native populations that worked these mines and transported bullion after the clerics went home ?
Were there Jesuits who decided to stay in America and continue working behind Spain's back ? Are they whom these maps are from ?

 

[gollum]

Knowledge of mine and cache locations must have been dangerous in the days of the Jesuit expulsion from N. America. What happened to the native populations that worked these mines and transported bullion after the clerics went home ?
Were there Jesuits who decided to stay in America and continue working behind Spain's back ? Are they whom these maps are from ?

The only Jesuits that stayed Jesuits after the worldwide suppression of the Order in 1773 were in Russia, Prussia, and Maryland (hence Georgetown University).

Mike

 

[Backwoodsbob]

Thanks Mike, you just answered a question about the order in new England part. I knew the Russian part. With that being said. Did the order communicate with each other?

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[somehiker]

Knowledge of mine and cache locations must have been dangerous in the days of the Jesuit expulsion from N. America. What happened to the native populations that worked these mines and transported bullion after the clerics went home ?
Were there Jesuits who decided to stay in America and continue working behind Spain's back ? Are they whom these maps are from ?

In researching the possibility of a well hidden, substantial cache of Jesuit valuables somewhere still out there, I've considered that, Ryano.
That if someone were left behind, and in charge of such a "warehouse", perhaps from it's establishment well before the expulsion, that person may very well have been Fr. Ignacio Xavier Keller. Details of his reported demise are very sketchy IMO, but his name obviously wouldn't have been on whatever list the Spanish relied upon during the roundup.

"The seemingly indestructible Keller of Suamca, after enduring the hardships of service on the New Spain frontier for nearly three decades, died some time after mid-August of 1759. Ailing, he had hastened to the side of a Pima of the north who was in danger of dying without confession. In doing so, the zealous Padre, evidently aware that he himself was near death, forsook the comfort of spending his last moments in the company of Europeans. Instead, by this final act, Father Keller demonstrated one of the noblest justifications for spending one’s life as a missionary: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

https://www.nps.gov/tuma/learn/historyculture/ignacio-xavier-keller.htm

 

[H-2 CHARLIE]

Ok the Jesuit's had serve GOLD FEVER .

 

[gollum]

In researching the possibility of a well hidden, substantial cache of Jesuit valuables somewhere still out there, I've considered that, Ryano.
That if someone were left behind, and in charge of such a "warehouse", perhaps from it's establishment well before the expulsion, that person may very well have been Fr. Ignacio Xavier Keller. Details of his reported demise are very sketchy IMO, but his name obviously wouldn't have been on whatever list the Spanish relied upon during the roundup.

"The seemingly indestructible Keller of Suamca, after enduring the hardships of service on the New Spain frontier for nearly three decades, died some time after mid-August of 1759. Ailing, he had hastened to the side of a Pima of the north who was in danger of dying without confession. In doing so, the zealous Padre, evidently aware that he himself was near death, forsook the comfort of spending his last moments in the company of Europeans. Instead, by this final act, Father Keller demonstrated one of the noblest justifications for spending one’s life as a missionary: “It is more blessed to give than to receive.”

https://www.nps.gov/tuma/learn/historyculture/ignacio-xavier-keller.htm

I always liked Rojas/Roxas from Arizpe (who was Visitor General in 1765 when I think they started hiding stuff). At least for Pimeria Alta anyway.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

I always liked Rojas/Roxas from Arizpe (who was Visitor General in 1765 when I think they started hiding stuff). At least for Pimeria Alta anyway.

Mike

So, you're saying that the Jesuits began caching valuables in Arizona two years prior to the expulsion?

 

[somehiker]

I've been meaning to go through my notes for the sources, dates and other circumstances for this, but wasn't it Roxas who went awol for a time ?
Also, one of the Fathers whose journals we do have, had noted when he first arrived at Casa Grande (post Kino), that excavations had been made within one of the other compounds...."B" perhaps, by the description. Was it dug by Kino or one of the other Jesuits, and did they find something worth hiding elsewhere ? A GPR done by Richard Robinson and his group also showed a large anomaly outside the doorway to the Main Building of compound "A", but the NPS refused them permission to dig......no surprise there.

 

[EarnieP]

I always liked Rojas/Roxas from Arizpe (who was Visitor General in 1765 when I think they started hiding stuff). At least for Pimeria Alta anyway.

Mike

I read your (2010) Rojas' Silver Bell comments on the 'other site'. Good stuff!