Both sides of Stone Maps Argument

[JohnWhite]

There is also an encrypted text that describes the treasure site which is depicted in the museum stone maps. And this text is written in a letter which a woman by name Rosalee sent it to the writer R.G. Babcock. You can read the letter at https://hubpages.com/education/The-Lost-Aztec-Treasure , but I will post it here for easy reading:

" Lord Theodora Fleming and Lord John Henry Hinkle May 20, 1816

Dear sis, here it is as we go down with the Indian Chief Coatl, Having reached a gorge with almost vertical walls. Coatl led the way down, pointing out footings and hand-holds, opposite them on the other side of the chasm, you could see a bleak range of hills and you could hear a roar of cascades.
I was glad at last to be on the cañon floor, at this level of the gorge was lined with trees in blossoming. The roar was waterfall and trees with strange golden bark with twisted snakelike roots that made walking difficult. Coatl pointed at the opposite wall an enormous portal yawned perhaps 7 feet high and 150 feet wide, this arch looked as if it was built by hand, ?(Aserpo-de-Dios) house of God's Sacred, it is forbidden, I Chief Coatl have right to enter without fear. I do not fear to go in with you Theodora Fleming, John Henry Hinkle.
As I look in the giants castle behind vast doorway we crossing the stream on a series of rocks to vast doorway, by the light of the torches we could see that a tunnel like a corridor slanting down, you could feel the slope beneath my feets; Then suddenly at the foot of the decline my heart leaped to my throat a gigantic hall, one so vast that a cathedral would be lost in it. It was wonderful, but God knows whether mortal men have the right to look at such things;?
An enormous white goat stood before us, as big as a horse, when you get to it you turn left to a gigantic halls'. Stopped to light another torch as we was stop before a natural archway; Here we entering into another huge cavern; in it was high white pyramid step's going all the way to the top; The pyramid look like a robe as I look at it. I(t) was rusty coloring on the step's; I asked Coatl what it was he said it was blood; he pointed at a small dark mound some distance off has bones of many men;? Coatl led the way to a hollow space under the pyramid; a tunnel going down 25 ft long; The contents was gold in piles of grains and nuggets and ornaments; What a treasure if I live long en(ough) to get back to it; We was in the cavern 8 hours, you have to walk a long way back into the caverns; as I (don't) no any 1 white man to see it; as the Indians no were it is; to my sis Mrs Emley Fleming Hinkle "

If you can decrypt this letter, then you will find out where the Horse and the treasure of Santa Fe church lie.

That is an interesting letter Marius...It seems to be heavily coded...Some people were so secretive back in the day...

Ed T

 

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[somehiker]

Chief Coatl (nahua ..."snake").
There IS a giant snake out there.....with a large cavern below. When the sun is directly above, it looks like it has feathers along it's body...long ellipses, rather than what would resemble scales. A very narrow and dangerous trail goes first to an upper entrance, and then further downward to a lower one at the back of the cavern. Those who created the paintings, on both rock and paper, as well as other artistic works above and below, had been there more than once. After all, it was a shrine....and the temple the Priest is depicted as standing upon.....but that was centuries before the Chief and his companions.

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy, Phil wasn't Travis's contemporary. Phil was Travis's uncle. Everything Phil did, Travis imitated, be it carving or exploring the same places in the Superstitions.

Why?



Tayopa hasn't been found or uncovered. Does that mean everything related to it is a hoax?

The LDM hasn't been found. Does that mean Jacob Waltz is a complete fiction? Are all his clues a giant hoax?

There are 16 sub forums on this forums (excluding Superstition legends and Jesuit treasure) , all dealing with various treasures, none of which have been found (yet).

Does that mean they're all hoaxes?

Let's get the first point first.

I never said "Phil" might have carved the Peralta stones, the chimney or the Galleon stone. I said perhaps one of his boyhood pals - referring to what Matthew had posted earlier, trying to muddy the waters further and ignoring that Tumlinson family members informed Garry Cundiff that Travis had carved the stones. Here was the statement from Matthew I was referring to - not anything concerning Phil. quote

There are numerous initials carved on the chimney that were done by persons NOT related to the Tumlinson's or Leasman's. No one knows if any of those carving their initials also carved pictures.
The roads out to this old cabin are lined with numerous rocks that were carved on by local kids over many decades. Initials and pictures and notes by numerous unidentified artists.

I would disagree that Tayopa hasn't been found, in fact it has been found by several - the Dos Padre mine being one example, another being the one found by our mutual amigo Don Jose, Real de Tayopa, as I have seen the assays from the samples he had tested.

Now you wish to lump the Peralta stones with other lost mine and treasure stories, as if it were similar in many ways. It is not similar. The LDM legend relates to a rich gold mine linked to Jacob Waltz; we can see the gold matchbox made from the ore. Of course everyone is free and welcome to deny that, and pretty much every single lost mine and lost treasure story is related to an actual mine or lost treasure. The lost treasure of San Xavier for example, is referring to an actual lost treasure, the silver church items which were estimated to be worth $40,000 when silver was a dollar an ounce.

This brings up a major issue with the Peralta stones.

What exactly are these stone maps alleged to lead to? A treasure, a mine, multiple mines? What treasure is it referring to? There is no mention of any "treasure of Santa Fe" despite our mutual amigo Marius tagging it that way. The inscription mentioning Santa Fe only states in effect, I am the horse of Santa Fe, or holy faith. No mention of any treasure there.

So what treasure(s) and/or mine(s) do these Peralta stones supposedly lead to? Thanks in advance.

 

[JohnWhite]

Let's get the first point first.

I never said "Phil" might have carved the Peralta stones, the chimney or the Galleon stone. I said perhaps one of his boyhood pals - referring to what Matthew had posted earlier, trying to muddy the waters further and ignoring that Tumlinson family members informed Garry Cundiff that Travis had carved the stones. Here was the statement from Matthew I was referring to - not anything concerning Phil. quote



I would disagree that Tayopa hasn't been found, in fact it has been found by several - the Dos Padre mine being one example, another being the one found by our mutual amigo Don Jose, Real de Tayopa, as I have seen the assays from the samples he had tested.

Now you wish to lump the Peralta stones with other lost mine and treasure stories, as if it were similar in many ways. It is not similar. The LDM legend relates to a rich gold mine linked to Jacob Waltz; we can see the gold matchbox made from the ore. Of course everyone is free and welcome to deny that, and pretty much every single lost mine and lost treasure story is related to an actual mine or lost treasure. The lost treasure of San Xavier for example, is referring to an actual lost treasure, the silver church items which were estimated to be worth $40,000 when silver was a dollar an ounce.

This brings up a major issue with the Peralta stones.

What exactly are these stone maps alleged to lead to? A treasure, a mine, multiple mines? What treasure is it referring to? There is no mention of any "treasure of Santa Fe" despite our mutual amigo Marius tagging it that way. The inscription mentioning Santa Fe only states in effect, I am the horse of Santa Fe, or holy faith. No mention of any treasure there.

So what treasure(s) and/or mine(s) do these Peralta stones supposedly lead to? Thanks in advance.

So much for the "So " I do not want to let the cat out of the bag nor open Pandora's Box...But I will say that they definitely lead to something...hehehe

Ed T

 

[azdave35]

Let's get the first point first.

I never said "Phil" might have carved the Peralta stones, the chimney or the Galleon stone. I said perhaps one of his boyhood pals - referring to what Matthew had posted earlier, trying to muddy the waters further and ignoring that Tumlinson family members informed Garry Cundiff that Travis had carved the stones. Here was the statement from Matthew I was referring to - not anything concerning Phil. quote



I would disagree that Tayopa hasn't been found, in fact it has been found by several - the Dos Padre mine being one example, another being the one found by our mutual amigo Don Jose, Real de Tayopa, as I have seen the assays from the samples he had tested.

Now you wish to lump the Peralta stones with other lost mine and treasure stories, as if it were similar in many ways. It is not similar. The LDM legend relates to a rich gold mine linked to Jacob Waltz; we can see the gold matchbox made from the ore. Of course everyone is free and welcome to deny that, and pretty much every single lost mine and lost treasure story is related to an actual mine or lost treasure. The lost treasure of San Xavier for example, is referring to an actual lost treasure, the silver church items which were estimated to be worth $40,000 when silver was a dollar an ounce.

This brings up a major issue with the Peralta stones.

What exactly are these stone maps alleged to lead to? A treasure, a mine, multiple mines? What treasure is it referring to? There is no mention of any "treasure of Santa Fe" despite our mutual amigo Marius tagging it that way. The inscription mentioning Santa Fe only states in effect, I am the horse of Santa Fe, or holy faith. No mention of any treasure there.

So what treasure(s) and/or mine(s) do these Peralta stones supposedly lead to? Thanks in advance.

they lead to divorce and financial ruin..and in some cases the nut house

matter of fact i think a couple of guys here are posting from the nut house

 

[JohnWhite]

they lead to divorce and financial ruin..and in some cases the nut house

matter of fact i think a couple of guys here are posting from the nut house

All of the people in my circle believe I belong in the nut house dave...Hell...Even I am beginning to think that I belong there...After all of the claims that I have been making...As IF I could have solved the PSM's...And as IF I have platinum bearing ore from the little coyote hole in the hills...Or is it a real de minasWho knows dave...IT is what IT is and IT is from wherever IT is from...lol...

Who would believe such a crockIF I were ya'll...I would not believe me...

Ed T

 

[deducer]

ignoring that Tumlinson family members informed Garry Cundiff that Travis had carved the stones.

May I ask how this became the gospel? How many times do I have to point out what Garry said about being told by the family? Garry knows that hearsay is not evidence, and has said as such! You keep ignoring the Garry quotes.

This brings up a major issue with the Peralta stones.

What is your proof that these stones have anything to do with the Peraltas or with Mexicans in general?

What exactly are these stone maps alleged to lead to? A treasure, a mine, multiple mines? What treasure is it referring to? There is no mention of any "treasure of Santa Fe" despite our mutual amigo Marius tagging it that way. The inscription mentioning Santa Fe only states in effect, I am the horse of Santa Fe, or holy faith. No mention of any treasure there.

So what treasure(s) and/or mine(s) do these Peralta stones supposedly lead to? Thanks in advance.

I think we're getting sidetracked here. This thread is about the authenticity, not the provenance of the Stone Maps.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

deducer,

You are correct. Gary simply stated he was told by Tumlinson family that they saw Travis carving the Stone Maps. That is hearsay, not evidence as Gary pointed out.
There would have only been two people alive to tell Gary that story that had been alive when Travis allegedly carved the Stones and both of them would have been under 10 years old.

"family remembrances" are often not reliable evidence. Take the case of a most recent Dutchman book written by a dutchman author/researcher who interviewed the family of Brownie Holmes who told him they saw Brownie typing the Holmes Manuscript at the kitchen table.

Nice story but totally untrue.

The Holmes manuscript was written in 1944, that is the date on the Holmes Manuscript at the Arizona Archives. Nothing written in that manuscript occurred after the year 1944.

Brownie is on three (3) separate taped interviews clearly stating the last time he saw the Holmes Manuscript was at the 1947 Barkley ranch spring roundup.

In 1949 Brownie met and married Thelma Neff. She had four children from a previous marriage. Brownie and Thelma's family moved into a home at 21st Place and Roosevelt in Phoenix in late 1949.
This is where Thelma's children said they saw Brownie typing the Holmes Manuscript.

But unless those children had perfected time travel and were able to go backward in time, they never witnessed Brownie typing the Manuscript because they did not meet Brownie until 1949 and the manuscript was written and had disappeared 2-5 years earlier.

The children probably watched Brownie typing something but it definitely wasn't the Holmes manuscript, just like some Tumlinson family members may have seen Travis doing something with stone but it surely wasn't the stone maps.

What the Neff children probably saw was Brownie typing reports for his work at the Arizona Fish and Game Department which he routinely had to do. Often family when questioned will tell an author what they think the author wants to hear, not exactly what transpired.

 

[Oroblanco]

I see more attempts to divert attention.

What treasure and/or mines do the Peralta stones supposedly lead to?

Thanks in advance.

 

[markmar]

I see more attempts to divert attention.

What treasure and/or mines do the Peralta stones supposedly lead to?

Thanks in advance.

Roy, is the treasure written on the cross stone map. Like I wrote, the H/P stone map, the Trail stone maps and the Crosses stone maps, were made by the same artist and have the same treasure code.
Have you tried to see what similarities have the Cross stone map with the landmarks and the Trail stone map? What is similar is not in the landmarks, but in one letter, the one missing in the Priest's heart.

 

[somehiker]

We all need to remember that the stones almost everyone has been trying to study and solve/verify or debunk, are the four stones which can be directly traced through documentation back to Clarence Mitchell. Also that that the family members shown in some video interviews, as well as E-Mails published by "Azmula" with his Superstition Mountain Museum Newsletter articles clearly stated the stones that they had seen him carving, or in his possession were not only smaller....all the same color as the H/P stone....but also "different" than the ones we all most frequently debate.

Matthew:
"There would have only been two people alive to tell Gary that story that had been alive when Travis allegedly carved the Stones and both of them would have been under 10 years old."

There was a third....the Feltner's daughter....who, when I spoke with her on the telephone, gave me a completely different story about the genesis and manufacture of the H/P stone that she and other family members and friends had seen and remembered. I later heard exactly the same story independently from two other individuals.
Are you familiar with this story ?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Some hiker,

Yes I have heard that story and it would be good if you could tell the story here giving the individuals involved and time frame. That would go far in deciding what exactly Travis may have carved if anything.

Matthew

 

[JohnWhite]

I see more attempts to divert attention.

What treasure and/or mines do the Peralta stones supposedly lead to?

Thanks in advance.

They lead to the pot of platinum at the end of the rainbow Oro...hehehe...Maybe one day I may divulge the information...But at this current time I choose to keep said information top secret...Well...It is not really all that much of a secret...I have shared said information with several people in my close circle...And wouldn't you know...They think I am off of my rocker...lol

Ed T

 

[somehiker]

Some hiker,

Yes I have heard that story and it would be good if you could tell the story here giving the individuals involved and time frame. That would go far in deciding what exactly Travis may have carved if anything.

Matthew

Will do so as soon as I have time, since it will be a lengthy post....more than I usually make.

 

[Al D]

Will do so as soon as I have time, since it will be a lengthy post....more than I usually make.

Looking forward to reading it Wayne,

 

[deducer]

I see more attempts to divert attention.

What treasure and/or mines do the Peralta stones supposedly lead to?

Thanks in advance.

And again, I ask- what do the Stone Maps have to do with the Peraltas?

And I don't think that authentication necessarily requires establishing provenance.

 

[azdave35]

And again, I ask- what do the Stone Maps have to do with the Peraltas?

And I don't think that authentication necessarily requires establishing provenance.

the main question is not what the doorstops have to do with the peraltas it has never even been proven they have anything to do with the superstitions

 

[Idahodutch]

the main question is not what the doorstops have to do with the peraltas it has never even been proven they have anything to do with the superstitions

Dave, with all respect, but just because it hasn't been proven to you, is not evidence that it has not been proven to someone else.
Idahodutch

 

[azdave35]

Dave, with all respect, but just because it hasn't been proven to you, is not evidence that it has not been proven to someone else.
Idahodutch

it would be fairly easy to prove it to me or anyone else....JUST SHOW US WHERE THOSE DOORSTOPS HAVE LED TO A TREASURE OR ANYTHING OF VALUE...every time i say that the forum goes silent...lol

 

[Idahodutch]

it would be fairly easy to prove it to me or anyone else....JUST SHOW US WHERE THOSE DOORSTOPS HAVE LED TO A TREASURE OR ANYTHING OF VALUE...every time i say that the forum goes silent...lol

That's funny Dave, but perhaps they're not ready, who knows. Point is we really don't know what has been proven on any private level, without some disclosure. . . .