Both sides of Stone Maps Argument

[azdave35]

You posted this earlier, quote



Since I am one of the guys arguing against the Peralta Stones authenticity, this is an accusation that I am among those whom are deceptively trying to glean information from the 'true believers' by demanding to see their proof. It is an accusation - but no worries, I wasn't taking it as an insult as I don't think it was intended as an insult. Of course if it was intended as an insult, please enlighten me.

roy..if you want to see them go nuts just ask them to provide one instance where those doorstops have ever led to a recovery of any kind...they will stammer and stutter...then about 3 or 4 of them will gang up on you and start hurling accusations...calling you names...lol....its great entertainment...better than television and with no commercials...they have provided my family with countless hours of laughter and entertainment.....

 

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[coazon de oro]

Howdy Roy,

I would love to see you prove how it is flawed when Travis' ignorance of the Spanish language prove's he was in no way capable of creating the PSM's. Up until he found the PSM's, he had only carved on the chimney, not some stones, and I would love to see you prove how his carvings on the chimney had anything to do with treasure maps. Travis had his wife when he found the P/H stone, and his uncle when he found the rest of them. So there are three persons who were there when the PSM's were found. None of the rest naysayers were there, were they? When he took them to a gas station in Arizona, not Texas, to get them hosed down, there were others there who saw roots in some of the groves. I could present more evidence to prove that they are real, but all it takes is one fact to disprove all the he said, she said, and I have done that already.

If I were to find a lost composure of Mozart, who ever he or she may be, I would throw it in the trash, not knowing what I had found since I know nothing about music. Some other composer would be more likely to make such a find. He or she would be looking in the right place, and able to recognize what they were looking at.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

You posted this earlier, quote



Since I am one of the guys arguing against the Peralta Stones authenticity, this is an accusation that I am among those whom are deceptively trying to glean information from the 'true believers' by demanding to see their proof. It is an accusation - but no worries, I wasn't taking it as an insult as I don't think it was intended as an insult. Of course if it was intended as an insult, please enlighten me.

better yet roy...let it slip that you have some inside info that they cant have.....then sit back and wait for the tantrums

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Roy,

I would love to see you prove how it is flawed when Travis' ignorance of the Spanish language prove's he was in no way capable of creating the PSM's. Up until he found the PSM's, he had only carved on the chimney, not some stones, and I would love to see you prove how his carvings on the chimney had anything to do with treasure maps. Travis had his wife when he found the P/H stone, and his uncle when he found the rest of them. So there are three persons who were there when the PSM's were found. None of the rest naysayers were there, were they? When he took them to a gas station in Arizona, not Texas, to get them hosed down, there were others there who saw roots in some of the groves. I could present more evidence to prove that they are real, but all it takes is one fact to disprove all the he said, she said, and I have done that already.

If I were to find a lost composure of Mozart, who ever he or she may be, I would throw it in the trash, not knowing what I had found since I know nothing about music. Some other composer would be more likely to make such a find. He or she would be looking in the right place, and able to recognize what they were looking at.

Homar

homar..let's see if you can answer this...how come hundreds of guys have figured the doorstops out ..but they all lead to different spots in arizona?....some even out of state...and none of them have recovered anything...you got an intelligent answer for that?

 

[deducer]

Hi Roy,

Answers below:

That is making a huge assumption. We do NOT know what reason(s) Travis made said trips into the Superstitions, or really if he went there at all since none of us where there. He might have been searching for meteorites or arrowheads for all we know.

No it’s not an assumption at all. He talks about his trips into the Superstitions, in his manuscript “Challenge for Superstition Gold.” They all had to do with the Stone Maps one way or another.

How do we KNOW that he NEVER attempted to sell them? Maybe he didn't want to risk prison for selling frauds?
How can anyone attempt to get inside of his head or anyone else's, unless he was keeping a daily diary/journal. Even then, something written in a diary might not truly reflect all that is going on inside the head.

Because no one has come forward to say that Travis tried to sell the Stone Maps to any of them. In the Brower and Love letters, it is stated that Travis Tumlinson discussed the Stone Maps with several people in an attempt to figure them out. Never once did he discuss selling them, or solicit funds to aid his search.

Again this question is built on another ASSUMPTION premise, that indeed Travis presented the stones to his uncle Robert for the purpose of finding the treasure(s) they allegedly lead to. Can we prove that Robert actually was using the stone maps to guide his searching?

No it’s not an assumption. This was established by the Peck investigation, that Robert Tumlinson approached Dr. Gene Davis in 1956, with the express purpose of soliciting funds for a treasure search, and that thereafter, Dr. Gene Davis funded several of Robert’s expeditions into the Superstitions for a few years, but stopped after nothing was found. Dr. Gene Davis had the Stone Maps in his possession during that time as collateral.

We can not KNOW the answer to this either, since we don't know what motivates anyone really. There are some obvious reasons though, like fraud. Or lying on the part of Clarence is also possible, perhaps he DID know that Travis was the engraver of the stones? Quien sabe?
This is yet another exercise in trying to GUESS what some people whom are not alive today to answer. We simply can not know the answers to this since none of us were present, pro or con.

Travis Tumlinson, despite being front and center of a dubious mystery, was never described by any of his closest friend as being other than honest and straightforward. Travis was never said to have misled or tried to con anyone. There is then no reason to assume he would do such a thing to Clarence Mitchell since he and his wife were good friends with Clarence and Clarence’s wife. Such familial congeniality would tend to rule something like that out.

Another question relating to personal motivations which we can not possibly answer since none of us were there and none of us could speak for the motivations, reasons or logic of Mitchell. I would offer an alternative question here, and invite anyone to answer it - if Mitchell believed those stone maps were the genuine article, WHY on Earth would he agree to allow the photos to be published in a national magazine? He wanted competitors, maybe? If you had possession of maps to treasure(s) and you believed the maps to be genuine, would you allow a national magazine to publish photos of the maps? I sure wouldn't, at least not until AFTER I had found the treasure!

Very simple: he covered up what he believed to be vital information, or directions, with black tape. See example below:

 

[coazon de oro]

homar..let's see if you can answer this...how come hundreds of guys have figured the doorstops out ..but they all lead to different spots in arizona?....some even out of state...and none of them have recovered anything...you got an intelligent answer for that?

Howdy Dave,

You don't have to be intelligent to figure out that none of those understand the doorstops any better than you do. All those "solves", are not solves at all.

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Dave,

You don't have to be intelligent to figure out that none of those understand the doorstops any better than you do. All those "solves", are not solves at all.

homar..you still haven't answered my question

are you telling us that you alone have figured out the doorstops after hundreds of professional treasure hunters have failed?

 

[markmar]

homar..you still haven't answered my question

are you telling us that you alone have figured out the doorstops after hundreds of professional treasure hunters have failed?

Dave, who were the professional treasure hunters you are talking about?

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Several years ago I wrote an article for the SMHS Journal and the Arizona History project about Clarence O. Mitchell (Travis Marlowe) and his involvement with the "Peralta Stone Maps".

I compiled the information almost entirely from talks over the years with Mitchell's daughter Carol who lived at Rialto, California and with Richard Stolley who wrote the Life Magazine article about Marlowe and the Stone Maps.

Carol Mitchell accompanied her father into the Superstition Mountains on numerous trips searching for the Stone Map treasure and trying to understand the maps markings so she was a First Person source to Mitchell's involvement with Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps.

Carol Mitchell stated her father believed the Stone Maps to be authentic and even moved the family from Hawthorne, California to Queen Creek, Arizona to search for the maps treasure. Mitchell’s Queen Creek home was not far from where the Stone Maps were discovered along Queen Creek.

Carol Mitchell knew Travis Tumlinson and stated she felt Tumlinson also believed the Stone Maps to be completely authentic.

Carol told the real story of how her father received the Stone Maps and how Aileen Tumlinson had her father sign a paper and promise that if he found any treasure using those maps, she (Aileen) and her daughter would be entitled to a share.

At the 9th? Dutchman Rendezvous, Ryan Gordon pulled me aside and questioned me about Clarence Mitchell’s involvement. I told him very little because I knew he had already been trying to discredit Mitchell with misleading accounts and false statements. When I told him flat out the Travis Tumlinson story was really the Phillip Leaseman story, he turned a little pale and said, …..yes, ….. it is,….. but nobody wants to hear that story,…. they all want to hear about Travis Tumlinson.

 

[JohnWhite]

Many years ago, when I was working for American Home Foods a division of American Home Products, I was in the spirit...And at said time I was prophesying about the future and events to come...Someone I was talking with over the phone asked me about the lost Dutchman mine and the PSM's...Well...One thing led to another and I told them all about in the future I would solve them and that the Stones really do have nothing to do with the LDM...I also told them about a lot of other things...And even unto this day I wonder what happened to all of the pennies that were to be my commission...Of course all of this was dependent upon certain events...As is all of the things that happen in life being intertwined with one another...I doubt I will ever see all of those pennies and I doubt that I will ever continue prospecting...But I do believe the PSM's to be authentic and I also believe that I have solved them...I don't have any treasure nor do I believe there to be any treasure related with them...Or at least physical treasures I do know that there is a group of mines related with them...Or possibly even two mining reals...Oh well...Maybe one day I may write about them in further detail...Though I would not hold my breath on such a thing happening...Just like I will not hold my breath on all of those misplaced pennies from commissions being given unto me...lol...As IF I am the mastermind behind a lot of things we see in everyday life...

Then again...All of this could be part of my delusions of grandeur...And the PSM's could just be some useless doorstops...That is enough of these silly rantings...As IF I could be the one who told those involved not to reveal my identity...rofl...I wonder how many bright ideas came out of that prophesying session at American Home FoodsAnd I wonder how many bright ideas came from American Home Products...As IF an 18% return on investments could be topped...lmao

Ed T

 

[deducer]

Several years ago I wrote an article for the SMHS Journal and the Arizona History project about Clarence O. Mitchell (Travis Marlowe) and his involvement with the "Peralta Stone Maps".

I compiled the information almost entirely from talks over the years with Mitchell's daughter Carol who lived at Rialto, California and with Richard Stolley who wrote the Life Magazine article about Marlowe and the Stone Maps.

Carol Mitchell accompanied her father into the Superstition Mountains on numerous trips searching for the Stone Map treasure and trying to understand the maps markings so she was a First Person source to Mitchell's involvement with Travis Tumlinson and the Stone Maps.

Carol Mitchell stated her father believed the Stone Maps to be authentic and even moved the family from Hawthorne, California to Queen Creek, Arizona to search for the maps treasure. Mitchell’s Queen Creek home was not far from where the Stone Maps were discovered along Queen Creek.

Carol Mitchell knew Travis Tumlinson and stated she felt Tumlinson also believed the Stone Maps to be completely authentic.

Carol told the real story of how her father received the Stone Maps and how Aileen Tumlinson had her father sign a paper and promise that if he found any treasure using those maps, she (Aileen) and her daughter would be entitled to a share.

At the 9th? Dutchman Rendezvous, Ryan Gordon pulled me aside and questioned me about Clarence Mitchell’s involvement. I told him very little because I knew he had already been trying to discredit Mitchell with misleading accounts and false statements. When I told him flat out the Travis Tumlinson story was really the Phillip Leaseman story, he turned a little pale and said, …..yes, ….. it is,….. but nobody wants to hear that story,…. they all want to hear about Travis Tumlinson.

Matthew, thanks for sharing.

 

[starman 1]

Stone maps

Gentlemen:

Consider the Stone Maps as both revealing and concealing at the same time. First the maps data is not something that was created in one instance in time. It is an accumulation of information that has been handed down for generations and each remembering of the data included is both a step forward and a gaze backward in time.

Remove the data on the map and say put it on a blank sheet of paper and rotate the paper till other possibilities of its presentation appear. The Stone Maps were created to deceive, the data was created to reveal. A completely different set of trails and landmarks appear if the maps data is understood as a stand along separate from the Stone Maps. Just start by reversing the maps sequence and go from there.

Once you have a clear view of the data then begin to look at the astronomical locations that will present themselves on the new trail. There are other maps but these two maps will get you where you are going if understood correctly.

What can be maddening is the Stone Maps do reflect a trail system, that is on purpose, it is just not the fundamental trail system. Very smart folks have figured out what is right in front of them but what is right in front of them is an illusion.

Anyway just dropping in. My interests are different now that what is important to us is safe, and the best of luck in your efforts.

Starman 1

 

[azdave35]

Dave, who were the professional treasure hunters you are talking about?

marius....alot of them are still living..or existing should i say...i don't like to post their names unless they are gone....those i can post...chuck crawford...bob ward..johnathan burbridge...john wayne..(yes john wayne)...andy sinbad...warren koneman,...and a host of others

 

[markmar]

marius....alot of them are still living..or existing should i say...i don't like to post their names unless they are gone....those i can post...chuck crawford...bob ward..johnathan burbridge...john wayne..(yes john wayne)...andy sinbad...warren koneman,...and a host of others

And what made them professional?

 

[azdave35]

And what made them professional?

marius...when you do something every day for a living that makes you a professional....when you treasure hunt from home you are an amateur

 

[azdave35]

Matthew, thanks for sharing.

matthew just opened up another can of worms for you stoners to obsess over

 

[Matthew Roberts]

matthew just opened up another can of worms for you stoners to obsess over

dave,

You know I'm not a Stone Map searcher so I have no money on the table one way or the other. I search for the LDM using geology, clues from old timers and LOTS of shovel, pick and leg work in the mountains.
I've never been any good at deciphering maps, codes or symbols and I've never tried to.
That doesn't mean I've never looked at the Stone Maps or tried to learn something about them.
The one thing I have learned from talking directly with Mitchell and member of the Tumlinson family is, Phil Leasman is the real story.
Learn that story and a lot of things will fall in place.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

dave,

You know I'm not a Stone Map searcher so I have no money on the table one way or the other. I search for the LDM using geology, clues from old timers and LOTS of shovel, pick and leg work in the mountains.
I've never been any good at deciphering maps, codes or symbols and I've never tried to.
That doesn't mean I've never looked at the Stone Maps or tried to learn something about them.
The one thing I have learned from talking directly with Mitchell and member of the Tumlinson family is, Phil Leasman is the real story.
Learn that story and a lot of things will fall in place.

Matthew

i already know it

 

[coazon de oro]

homar..you still haven't answered my question

are you telling us that you alone have figured out the doorstops after hundreds of professional treasure hunters have failed?

Howdy Dave,

Settle down, this is no place for tantrums, no need to put words in my mouth. I gave you a simple answer, do you really believe hundreds of professional treasure hunters solved the PSM's? They would all have something to show for it, but not one of them does. In my opinion they can only lead to one place as most maps do. They may lead you to the nut house, but that doesn't mean you had real solve. I am just an amateur searching with Google Earth, don't mind me.

Homar

 

[azdave35]

Howdy Dave,

Settle down, this is no place for tantrums, no need to put words in my mouth. I gave you a simple answer, do you really believe hundreds of professional treasure hunters solved the PSM's? They would all have something to show for it, but not one of them does. In my opinion they can only lead to one place as most maps do. They may lead you to the nut house, but that doesn't mean you had real solve. I am just an amateur searching with Google Earth, don't mind me.

Homar

homar..i live here..believe me when i tell you there are multitude of knotheads that have showed up here over the years bragging that they solved the maps and will be rich in no time..they are still poor..lol...homar..i don't need to settle down..i'm just having fun