deducer
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Are you going to edit the post and remove the lie?
Both sides of Stone Maps Argument
- Thread starter gollum
- Start date
Are you going to edit the post and remove the lie?
you should be thanking the moderator arthur....he probably saved you from a lawsuit...
it was ok for you to call me a liar...that's what our bet was about....i guess its ok for you to call someone a liar but nobody can call you one?
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Gentlemen end it or both are timed out. Last warning!
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deducer
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He is on ignore until he edits that post or retracts his lie.
Oroblanco
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This is where it gets into the weeds for me. So we are to conclude that Travis carved the chimney and the galleon stone etc but didn't do the Peralta stones? Shouldn't we then conclude that he didn't carve the galleon stone and the chimney of the family home?
Are you saying that Travis carved part of the Peralta stones but not all? Thanks in advance, and an explanation of your why you reached those conclusions would be more than welcome too.
PS to Ed, quit offering to sell the info on your site, you know you would not sell it for love or money!
Maybe if you got so crippled up that you could never get back there, but your prospecting blood wouldn't let you sell that site otherwise.
JohnWhite
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This is where it gets into the weeds for me. So we are to conclude that Travis carved the chimney and the galleon stone etc but didn't do the Peralta stones? Shouldn't we then conclude that he didn't carve the galleon stone and the chimney of the family home?
Are you saying that Travis carved part of the Peralta stones but not all? Thanks in advance, and an explanation of your why you reached those conclusions would be more than welcome too.
PS to Ed, quit offering to sell the info on your site, you know you would not sell it for love or money!
You are absolutely correct Oro...I would never sell out...lol...Who knows...I still maintain the hope that one day I will try to return to the site...
I have no idea about the galleon map or any other ones...But I will still continue to state that the PSM's do lead somewhere...And I will also continue to state that I have around 10 pounds of ore from the area that some on this site claim to be worthless pebbles...rofl
Ed T
coazon de oro
Bronze Member
Not to speak for the PSM's, they speak for themselves, but Travis was not obsessed in carving stone maps just because he carved on the chimney when he was a boy. A lot of boys would carve on sandstone in those days, they spent a lot of time outdoors unlike today kids, and didn't have much to play with. Travis carved the Treasure Chest/Galleon stone after he found the PSM's. He never said he found the TC/G stone, that would have been a lie. He never said he found the chimney, that would have been a bigger lie. 
Of all the other stone maps said to have been carved by Travis, none have ever been shown.
If there are in fact some smaller stone maps, they are most likely the ones Charlie Miller sold to him. That was after Charlie had seen the PSM's that Travis found. Those would be fakes, why would Charlie sell treasure maps if he was a treasure hunter himself, and why didn't he ever offer to sell them to anyone else?
When Travis carved the TC/G stone, he used the P/H stone to copy the letters Gary C. did a good job of showing how similar they were. Travis however was not educated enough to have carved the PSM's. That is because he was not educated in the Spanish language which was used to create the P/H stone, yes that is a fact. Travis even stated that he showed the P/H stone to a Mexican boy at a gas station to find out what was written on it. He also took it to an older Mexican for his interpretation. Travis butchered the Spanish language in his TC/G stone, and even used English on it. Gary and his team overlooked this not only blinded by the similarity of the lettering, but by not knowing enough about the Spanish language to notice all the language gender errors. This fact alone makes it impossible for Travis to have carved the PSM's.
The so called Ground Map, could only have been made by Travis as his own interpretation of the PSM's. Just because Pegleg was said to have some treasure maps, does not make any of them the real deal to any treasure, nor does it make the Ground Map, and star charts as something left behind by Pegleg. Even the Mexicans never produce any paper map that resembled the PSM's. Any paper map made before the PSM's would crumble if Travis used it the way he used his ground map. The PSM's are intertwined in such a way that Travis himself in a way said he couldn't solve them. Listen to what Travis said, and did, there's a lot of fake news on the forums.
The zeros that are said to have been carved by Travis to throw others off, were not carved by Travis. I don't know if he actually said that, or where that started, but when Travis found the rest of the PSM's a year after he had found the P/H stone, the Heart insert was already broke and glued together. You can see that in the bumper photo, where the P/H stone is missing because he left it in Oregon. The glue used to mend the broken heart, fills the groves of the zeros at the break line. This shows that he did not carve the zeros as some claim.
Homar
Of all the other stone maps said to have been carved by Travis, none have ever been shown.
If there are in fact some smaller stone maps, they are most likely the ones Charlie Miller sold to him. That was after Charlie had seen the PSM's that Travis found. Those would be fakes, why would Charlie sell treasure maps if he was a treasure hunter himself, and why didn't he ever offer to sell them to anyone else?When Travis carved the TC/G stone, he used the P/H stone to copy the letters Gary C. did a good job of showing how similar they were. Travis however was not educated enough to have carved the PSM's. That is because he was not educated in the Spanish language which was used to create the P/H stone, yes that is a fact. Travis even stated that he showed the P/H stone to a Mexican boy at a gas station to find out what was written on it. He also took it to an older Mexican for his interpretation. Travis butchered the Spanish language in his TC/G stone, and even used English on it. Gary and his team overlooked this not only blinded by the similarity of the lettering, but by not knowing enough about the Spanish language to notice all the language gender errors. This fact alone makes it impossible for Travis to have carved the PSM's.
The so called Ground Map, could only have been made by Travis as his own interpretation of the PSM's. Just because Pegleg was said to have some treasure maps, does not make any of them the real deal to any treasure, nor does it make the Ground Map, and star charts as something left behind by Pegleg. Even the Mexicans never produce any paper map that resembled the PSM's. Any paper map made before the PSM's would crumble if Travis used it the way he used his ground map. The PSM's are intertwined in such a way that Travis himself in a way said he couldn't solve them. Listen to what Travis said, and did, there's a lot of fake news on the forums.
The zeros that are said to have been carved by Travis to throw others off, were not carved by Travis. I don't know if he actually said that, or where that started, but when Travis found the rest of the PSM's a year after he had found the P/H stone, the Heart insert was already broke and glued together. You can see that in the bumper photo, where the P/H stone is missing because he left it in Oregon. The glue used to mend the broken heart, fills the groves of the zeros at the break line. This shows that he did not carve the zeros as some claim.
Homar
deducer
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I am repeating a set of excellent questions that Mike (Gollum) asked on the other forum. I hope he doesn't mind me copying and pasting them here.
Assuming the Stone Maps are fake, then:
1. If TT (Travis Tumlinson) carved the stone maps himself, then why did he take almost a dozen secret trips into the Supers trying to solve them?
2. Why did he NEVER attempt to sell them?
3. Why did he keep them (for the most part) a complete secret from 1949 until his death in 1961?
4. Since Robert Tumlinson was Travis' Uncle, then why would Travis have given him the stones and let him spend several years and much of his meager pension traveling to Arizona trying to solve them? (I would add to this, why did his uncle solicit his own landlord to invest in the trips? Note that the landlord demanded possession of the Stone Maps as collateral).
5. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend of the Tumlinsons, then why did he not know that Travis carved them?
6. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend, then why didn't Aileen tell him that Travis had carved the stones? (Clarence had repeatedly hounded Aileen after Travis died, until she finally agreed to sell the Stone Maps to him. The rumor that she yelled out "sucker!" to him after he drove away with the Stone Maps is completely unsubstantiated.)
7. If Mitchell knew that Travis had carved the stones, then why did he keep their existence a secret from 1961 until the Life Magazine Article came out in 1964?
I invite anyone to answer these questions with facts or sound reasonings.
Assuming the Stone Maps are fake, then:
1. If TT (Travis Tumlinson) carved the stone maps himself, then why did he take almost a dozen secret trips into the Supers trying to solve them?
2. Why did he NEVER attempt to sell them?
3. Why did he keep them (for the most part) a complete secret from 1949 until his death in 1961?
4. Since Robert Tumlinson was Travis' Uncle, then why would Travis have given him the stones and let him spend several years and much of his meager pension traveling to Arizona trying to solve them? (I would add to this, why did his uncle solicit his own landlord to invest in the trips? Note that the landlord demanded possession of the Stone Maps as collateral).
5. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend of the Tumlinsons, then why did he not know that Travis carved them?
6. Since Clarence Mitchell was a family friend, then why didn't Aileen tell him that Travis had carved the stones? (Clarence had repeatedly hounded Aileen after Travis died, until she finally agreed to sell the Stone Maps to him. The rumor that she yelled out "sucker!" to him after he drove away with the Stone Maps is completely unsubstantiated.)
7. If Mitchell knew that Travis had carved the stones, then why did he keep their existence a secret from 1961 until the Life Magazine Article came out in 1964?
I invite anyone to answer these questions with facts or sound reasonings.
Al D
Bronze Member
Let me add one more log to this fire
Is it not interesting that so much energy has been invested in the attempt to convince people that the PSM’s are fake?
why should anyone care if they are?
what better way to dissuade and even gleen information from other researchers than to discredit the work, as has been suggested numerous times here on this forum.
Is it not interesting that so much energy has been invested in the attempt to convince people that the PSM’s are fake?
why should anyone care if they are?
what better way to dissuade and even gleen information from other researchers than to discredit the work, as has been suggested numerous times here on this forum.
alan...the people that have spent the most time and energy looking into the doorstops didn't start out trying to prove they were fakes...they just came to the conclusion they are after all the evidence was uncovered
deducer
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We know that from a letter written by Mel Brower to Bert Love on April 1, 1965 that Bob Bair and Travis Tumlinson were planning a two week trip to the Superstitions. That Bair told Mel this in the context of discussing the Stone Maps, is more than reason enough to assume that this trip was related to the Stone Maps.
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deducer
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Still no answer to the above questions. If someone wants to answer, feel free.
markmar
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If somebody in the past didn't find something trying to decrypt the stone maps, this don't make them fake. On the Horse stone map is carved where the Horse landmark lies, and in the five dots above the Horse is the answer.
On the Horse tablet is written he is grazing north of the river, and now just think how they were findind a river in the desert? By folowing another river. So the calculation should be done from the junction of the rivers, which are Gila and Salt in this case.
Now being at that junction, look for a constellation depicted in those five dots and using some combinations with the dots you will find the degrees and the distance in leguas. There on the Horse tablet is also a Spanish treasure symbol which someone should to take in consideration in regards to find the accurate place of the Horse landmark.
On the Horse tablet is written he is grazing north of the river, and now just think how they were findind a river in the desert? By folowing another river. So the calculation should be done from the junction of the rivers, which are Gila and Salt in this case.
Now being at that junction, look for a constellation depicted in those five dots and using some combinations with the dots you will find the degrees and the distance in leguas. There on the Horse tablet is also a Spanish treasure symbol which someone should to take in consideration in regards to find the accurate place of the Horse landmark.
Al D
Bronze Member
You know the answer Arthur, no one would do all of that travel for a hoax, the stones are authentic
alan..knowing and admitting are two different things
Oroblanco
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This is an extremely long winded reply to address several posts, so I have to ask your indulgence (again) and thanks in advance. If you don't care to wade through it, just skip to the end of this post.
Deducer wrote <quoting our mutual amigo Mike - Gollum>
That is making a huge assumption. We do NOT know what reason(s) Travis made said trips into the Superstitions, or really if he went there at all since none of us where there. He might have been searching for meteorites or arrowheads for all we know.
Deducer also wrote <and each quote following this>
How do we KNOW that he NEVER attempted to sell them? Maybe he didn't want to risk prison for selling frauds?
We can not KNOW the answer to this either, since we don't know what motivates anyone really. There are some obvious reasons though, like fraud. Or lying on the part of Clarence is also possible, perhaps he DID know that Travis was the engraver of the stones? Quien sabe?
This is yet another exercise in trying to GUESS what some people whom are not alive today to answer. We simply can not know the answers to this since none of us were present, pro or con.
Another question relating to personal motivations which we can not possibly answer since none of us were there and none of us could speak for the motivations, reasons or logic of Mitchell. I would offer an alternative question here, and invite anyone to answer it - if Mitchell believed those stone maps were the genuine article, WHY on Earth would he agree to allow the photos to be published in a national magazine? He wanted competitors, maybe? If you had possession of maps to treasure(s) and you believed the maps to be genuine, would you allow a national magazine to publish photos of the maps? I sure wouldn't, at least not until AFTER I had found the treasure!
Alan M wrote
Clearly you haven't read all of my posts, or you would not cast such an accusation. I do not attempt to dissuade people from hunting for treasures. I do not like it when treasure hunters are being misled by false, phony and fraudulent information. In this category I would add that ALL of the treasure maps (supposed) that are in the public circulation, and there are literally dozens of such maps not just the stone maps, are highly suspect and likely fraudulent or at the least, fatally erroneous. Now add to this factor, that people have died in the Superstition mountains, while searching for treasures. I for one do not care to have more people added to the search and rescue list whom were following fraudulent maps. Besides, that 'info' you refer to as being harvested, is mainly the logic and assumptions of the believers, and since no two of the stone map solvers lead to the same place, just how valuable is that info? Do you think that I am going to secretly write it all down and sneak into the Superstitions to the site someone posted on the forum? Don't hold your breath waiting for that moment to arrive.
Homar your logic and explanation are good, but flawed. It still looks very questionable that Travis was carving SOME stones but allegedly found the others. I won't say impossible, but if a music composer should suddenly claim he found a lost composure of Mozart, it would be pretty questionable wouldn't you think? I hope your conclusions are correct, and that it will lead you to finding a huge treasure some day - and that you will come back to rub my nose in it with photos of the treasure. It won't bother me at all and I really hope you do find it.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Deducer wrote <quoting our mutual amigo Mike - Gollum>
That is making a huge assumption. We do NOT know what reason(s) Travis made said trips into the Superstitions, or really if he went there at all since none of us where there. He might have been searching for meteorites or arrowheads for all we know.
Deducer also wrote <and each quote following this>
How do we KNOW that he NEVER attempted to sell them? Maybe he didn't want to risk prison for selling frauds?
How can anyone attempt to get inside of his head or anyone else's, unless he was keeping a daily diary/journal. Even then, something written in a diary might not truly reflect all that is going on inside the head.
Again this question is built on another ASSUMPTION premise, that indeed Travis presented the stones to his uncle Robert for the purpose of finding the treasure(s) they allegedly lead to. Can we prove that Robert actually was using the stone maps to guide his searching?
We can not KNOW the answer to this either, since we don't know what motivates anyone really. There are some obvious reasons though, like fraud. Or lying on the part of Clarence is also possible, perhaps he DID know that Travis was the engraver of the stones? Quien sabe?
This is yet another exercise in trying to GUESS what some people whom are not alive today to answer. We simply can not know the answers to this since none of us were present, pro or con.
Another question relating to personal motivations which we can not possibly answer since none of us were there and none of us could speak for the motivations, reasons or logic of Mitchell. I would offer an alternative question here, and invite anyone to answer it - if Mitchell believed those stone maps were the genuine article, WHY on Earth would he agree to allow the photos to be published in a national magazine? He wanted competitors, maybe? If you had possession of maps to treasure(s) and you believed the maps to be genuine, would you allow a national magazine to publish photos of the maps? I sure wouldn't, at least not until AFTER I had found the treasure!
Alan M wrote
Clearly you haven't read all of my posts, or you would not cast such an accusation. I do not attempt to dissuade people from hunting for treasures. I do not like it when treasure hunters are being misled by false, phony and fraudulent information. In this category I would add that ALL of the treasure maps (supposed) that are in the public circulation, and there are literally dozens of such maps not just the stone maps, are highly suspect and likely fraudulent or at the least, fatally erroneous. Now add to this factor, that people have died in the Superstition mountains, while searching for treasures. I for one do not care to have more people added to the search and rescue list whom were following fraudulent maps. Besides, that 'info' you refer to as being harvested, is mainly the logic and assumptions of the believers, and since no two of the stone map solvers lead to the same place, just how valuable is that info? Do you think that I am going to secretly write it all down and sneak into the Superstitions to the site someone posted on the forum? Don't hold your breath waiting for that moment to arrive.
Homar your logic and explanation are good, but flawed. It still looks very questionable that Travis was carving SOME stones but allegedly found the others. I won't say impossible, but if a music composer should suddenly claim he found a lost composure of Mozart, it would be pretty questionable wouldn't you think? I hope your conclusions are correct, and that it will lead you to finding a huge treasure some day - and that you will come back to rub my nose in it with photos of the treasure. It won't bother me at all and I really hope you do find it.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Al D
Bronze Member
I did not accuse you of anything, if what I stated is correct, then everyone involved, including you, have been dupedThis is an extremely long winded reply to address several posts, so I have to ask your indulgence (again) and thanks in advance. If you don't care to wade through it, just skip to the end of this post.
Deducer wrote <quoting our mutual amigo Mike - Gollum>
That is making a huge assumption. We do NOT know what reason(s) Travis made said trips into the Superstitions, or really if he went there at all since none of us where there. He might have been searching for meteorites or arrowheads for all we know.
Deducer also wrote <and each quote following this>
How do we KNOW that he NEVER attempted to sell them? Maybe he didn't want to risk prison for selling frauds?
How can anyone attempt to get inside of his head or anyone else's, unless he was keeping a daily diary/journal. Even then, something written in a diary might not truly reflect all that is going on inside the head.
Again this question is built on another ASSUMPTION premise, that indeed Travis presented the stones to his uncle Robert for the purpose of finding the treasure(s) they allegedly lead to. Can we prove that Robert actually was using the stone maps to guide his searching?
We can not KNOW the answer to this either, since we don't know what motivates anyone really. There are some obvious reasons though, like fraud. Or lying on the part of Clarence is also possible, perhaps he DID know that Travis was the engraver of the stones? Quien sabe?
This is yet another exercise in trying to GUESS what some people whom are not alive today to answer. We simply can not know the answers to this since none of us were present, pro or con.
Another question relating to personal motivations which we can not possibly answer since none of us were there and none of us could speak for the motivations, reasons or logic of Mitchell. I would offer an alternative question here, and invite anyone to answer it - if Mitchell believed those stone maps were the genuine article, WHY on Earth would he agree to allow the photos to be published in a national magazine? He wanted competitors, maybe? If you had possession of maps to treasure(s) and you believed the maps to be genuine, would you allow a national magazine to publish photos of the maps? I sure wouldn't, at least not until AFTER I had found the treasure!
Alan M wrote
Clearly you haven't read all of my posts, or you would not cast such an accusation. I do not attempt to dissuade people from hunting for treasures. I do not like it when treasure hunters are being misled by false, phony and fraudulent information. In this category I would add that ALL of the treasure maps (supposed) that are in the public circulation, and there are literally dozens of such maps not just the stone maps, are highly suspect and likely fraudulent or at the least, fatally erroneous. Now add to this factor, that people have died in the Superstition mountains, while searching for treasures. I for one do not care to have more people added to the search and rescue list whom were following fraudulent maps. Besides, that 'info' you refer to as being harvested, is mainly the logic and assumptions of the believers, and since no two of the stone map solvers lead to the same place, just how valuable is that info? Do you think that I am going to secretly write it all down and sneak into the Superstitions to the site someone posted on the forum? Don't hold your breath waiting for that moment to arrive.
Homar your logic and explanation are good, but flawed. It still looks very questionable that Travis was carving SOME stones but allegedly found the others. I won't say impossible, but if a music composer should suddenly claim he found a lost composure of Mozart, it would be pretty questionable wouldn't you think? I hope your conclusions are correct, and that it will lead you to finding a huge treasure some day - and that you will come back to rub my nose in it with photos of the treasure. It won't bother me at all and I really hope you do find it.
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you all find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco
Oroblanco
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You posted this earlier, quote
Since I am one of the guys arguing against the Peralta Stones authenticity, this is an accusation that I am among those whom are deceptively trying to glean information from the 'true believers' by demanding to see their proof. It is an accusation - but no worries, I wasn't taking it as an insult as I don't think it was intended as an insult. Of course if it was intended as an insult, please enlighten me.
Al D
Bronze Member
You posted this earlier, quote
Since I am one of the guys arguing against the Peralta Stones authenticity, this is an accusation that I am among those whom are deceptively trying to glean information from the 'true believers' by demanding to see their proof. It is an accusation - but no worries, I wasn't taking it as an insult as I don't think it was intended as an insult. Of course if it was intended as an insult, please enlighten me.
No insult was intended,
among the whole group of people arguing for the stones as a hoax, the person doing the gleening would remain mostly quiet. Letting others make the demands for proof as well as argue the veracity of claims made by someone with “First hand information”
your argument against the stones is valid, as long as you believe in your information, it is the information and its root source which I call into question, because, the stone maps lead to an area where there is a lot more evidence, evidence which Travis could not have fabricated.
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