Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

[cactusjumper]

Roy, shilt'lye,

The Catholic Church learned many, many years ago, that from single drops of rain, mighty rivers flow. Why do you think they are so against birth control. More hands to drop money in the collection plate is a popular theory. Some of those hands were quite wealthy. The Kennedy Clan come easily to mind.

You may be right. Perhaps they were the biggest mining consortium in the New World, and just never got caught. Pretty lucky, I would say. On the other hand, those huge furnaces and that large treasure building indicate that the Spanish soldiers and the officials from Mexico City were pretty dense,
not to mention the other mine owners in the area.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[lamar]

Lamar wrote

The Jesuits were suppressed in Germany, my friend

Oh lets split hairs, Prussia and not Germany then. After all Prussia isn't part of Germany right?

"The conflicts began with trade disputes, in 1750 in Portugal, in 1755 in France, and in the late 1750s in the Two Sicilies. " <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suppression_of_the_Jesuits>

Now just how poor were those Jesuit missions again, that they were involved in trade disputes? Haven't we hijacked this thread far enough OFF topic now, to realize that some folks see things differently when it comes to the Jesuits? You say tomato, I say gold mine, er oops!
Oroblanco


BTW for anyone on the fence I would suggest you research the history of the Jesuit expulsion from France and French colonial America, and Portuguese colonies for some clues as to just how wealthy the Jesuits had become.

Dear oroblanco;
Actually, at the time of the Jesuit expulsion, Prussia was a not a German possession, therefore I am correct in this regard. Prussia did not become a part of the German Empire until 1815 AD, which is after the expulsion and it's not hair splitting, it's maintaining historical accuracy so as to curtail future arguments, my friend.

Who said ANYTHING about the New World Jesuit missionaries being involved in trade disputes? In case you are unaware of this, I shall enlighten you. There were a great many Jesuits sprinkled throughout the European Royal courts of power and it was THOSE Jesuits whom involved in trade disputes and even this is still a matter of contention. That there were certain Jesuits involved in the myriad of European trade disputes when they should have maintained a policy of strict neutrality is not in contention, rather it's their level of involvement which is unclear. The Jesuits were, and in some cases still are, the chief confessors of many members of political goverments and therefore they would have been the most likely candidates to have been blamed for international disagreements, yet this has NOTHING to do with the Jesuits of the New World.

About the supposed *wealth* of the Jesuits, first we must consider the source of the information before we pass any judgements. The French and the Portugues wanted the Jesuits expelled and they searched for any reason to do so. They initiated problems which did not exist and they also accused the Jesuits, both verbally and in writing. In an act of fairness, the succeeding missionaries went to great pangs to examine the charges levied against the Jesuits and without exception, they found them to be totally unfounded. For example, a certain Jesuit mission in the Portuguese colonies *supposedly* had a balance of over 5,000 escudos, yet when the registers were examined by the Franciscans, they discovered that the mission was actually in the red by 36 escudos.

Once again, if a person only reads a certain portion of the available facts, they can then construe anything against anyone, yet when one looks at the big picture the truth tends to emerge rather quickly.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[cactusjumper]

This can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui_Indians

[The Yaqui were never conquered militarily by the Spanish, defeating successive expeditions of conquistadores in battle. However, they were successfully converted to Christianity by the Jesuits, who convinced them to settle into eight towns: Pótam, Vícam, Tórim, Bácum, Cócorit, Huirivis, Belem, and Rahum.

For many years, the Yaqui lived peacefully in a relationship with the Jesuit missionaries. This resulted in considerable mutual advantage: the Yaqui were able to develop a very productive economy, and the missionaries were able to employ the wealth created to extend their missionary activities further north. In the 1730s the Spanish colonial government began to alter this relationship, and eventually ordered all Jesuits out of Sonora. This created considerable unrest amongst the Yaqui and led to several rebellions. Further, the Franciscan priests never arrived to be their religious leaders, leaving the Yaqui with no western religious ties.]

The Yaqui, on a regular basis, left the Jesuit missions to work in the Spanish mines. They would work long enough to earn the money for whatever they wanted to buy, and then return to the missions.

Once again, one of the books I would recommend reading is "Missionaries Miners & Indians" by Evelyn Hu-De Hart. It's a very detailed account of the relationship between the Yaqui and the Jesuits, as well as how they survived after the Jesuits expulsion. Just wanted to throw that in, because I feel the book really epitomizes the workings of the Jesuit mission system.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[lamar]

Dear cactusjumper;
It's always a pleasant and refreshing change to read about the actual historcial facts rather than the typical the latest batch of grist from the conspiracy mill. I happen to know of Mrs. Hu-Dehart by reputation and she is a prolific ayther as well a professor of history. Her conclusions are always 100% accurate and her surmations difficult to debate from any angle. She has done much to promote the history of the indiginous populations of the Americas during it's colonization.

I do tire of reading posts such as:
About the Jesuits and any wrong-doing - gee, I think there was a reason the King of Spain ordered them out, 1767, the King of France 1764 and the King of Portugal in 1759.

Not to mention the "Church" (the Pope) who ordered them disbanded forever. (Pope Clement XIV - July 1773).

You'd think they were ordered out for do-gooding, or do you think that maybe - just maybe - they had their reasons for doing so

Also, you would think that the fact that the Indians, who massacred as many Jesuits as they could find when they got tired of doing their mining is not a GLARING
example of their activities. The Indians loved the Franciscans that came after the Jesuits - specifically because they were treated well and not stuck in more slavery.

The Franciscans even wrote about how surprised they were by the Indians moderate demeanor and friendly attitudes. They were also shocked that the Pima's and the Papagos were not in the least bit indoctrinated with the "faith".

B

Observations such as this do not even warrant a serious reply, as the contents befuddle me in that anyone would have the temerity to write such unfactual things in the first place. Stating that the Jesuits were hated by the natives and the Franciscans were adored by the same simply boggles the mind, my friend. How anyone even attempt to twist around the facts in such a manner? Perhaps it was posted in jest, for surely it cannot be taken seriously.

Once again, thank you for posting some actual historical information, my friend. Far too many treasure hunters are so hung up on the supposed involvement of the Jesuits in the New World that they miss the golden opportunity of a lifetime. The clue lies in what you've previously posted, my friend.

The Yaqui, on a regular basis, left the Jesuit missions to work in the Spanish mines. They would work long enough to earn the money for whatever they wanted to buy, and then return to the missions.

From these two sentences we now know that the Yaquis worked in the Spanish mines. We may also surmise that the mines were being worked enough that the Yaquis had no trouble gaining employment at said mines. We also know there were no banks to speak of during the period and we know that the mine owners were the Spanish colonists. So, what happened to all of the Spanish gold and silver I'll be willing to bet that the Spaniards left behind some sizable caches in and around their homes, my friend.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[gollum]

This can be found at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui_Indians

[The Yaqui were never conquered militarily by the Spanish, defeating successive expeditions of conquistadores in battle. However, they were successfully converted to Christianity by the Jesuits, who convinced them to settle into eight towns: Pótam, Vícam, Tórim, Bácum, Cócorit, Huirivis, Belem, and Rahum.

For many years, the Yaqui lived peacefully in a relationship with the Jesuit missionaries. This resulted in considerable mutual advantage: the Yaqui were able to develop a very productive economy, and the missionaries were able to employ the wealth created to extend their missionary activities further north. In the 1730s the Spanish colonial government began to alter this relationship, and eventually ordered all Jesuits out of Sonora. This created considerable unrest amongst the Yaqui and led to several rebellions. Further, the Franciscan priests never arrived to be their religious leaders, leaving the Yaqui with no western religious ties.]

The Yaqui, on a regular basis, left the Jesuit missions to work in the Spanish mines. They would work long enough to earn the money for whatever they wanted to buy, and then return to the missions.

Once again, one of the books I would recommend reading is "Missionaries Miners & Indians" by Evelyn Hu-De Hart. It's a very detailed account of the relationship between the Yaqui and the Jesuits, as well as how they survived after the Jesuits expulsion. Just wanted to throw that in, because I feel the book really epitomizes the workings of the Jesuit mission system.

Joe Ribaudo

Joe,

Hate to rain on your parade, but the quote you posted from Wikipedia is not correct. While I admit that I still have not read DeHart's Book, I HAVE read books by the most eminent Jesuit and Spanish Colonial Historians (H.E. Bolton, T.E. Treutline, Father Ernest Burrus SJ, and Father Charles W Polzer SJ). I think you said that have Polzer's book on the Rules and Precepts of the Jesuit Missions of Northwestern New Spain. I think you should actually take it down off the shelf and read it again!

If the Jesuits were so kind and wonderful to all the Indians that they held in their care, then WHY were the Jesuits and their Mayordomos the principle targets of EVERY Indian uprising from the mid-1600s until the Jesuit Expulsion in 1767? I USED to think like you do, that is, until I read the words of the Jesuit fathers themselves!

I have been requoting this book so often that it seems to be pretty much replicated in toto in this thread. HAHAHA Buuuuuuut:

Some have been so interested in temporal gains that they have obliged the Indians to continual labor to the extent that the Indians have been unable to attend their own crops, thus the laymen have had reason to calumniate us regarding the Indian's situation and even claimed that we have enslaved the natives along with other serious charges.

........among the educated people, it has been found that they irreparably damage the reputation of the Priests; and among the Indians, it has been found that they act out of hate and vengeance because they were beaten at the order of the Fathers.

That's good enough for now.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Ah, gentle folk, our topic in this thread is Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy, 1997 correct? Oh well....


Sorry if I will not agree with you Lamar, nor will I quit posting the other view of Jesuit history. Your set of barrister-like questions to our amigo Real de Tayopa about what sort of clothing those men wore, how do you know what they were looking for etc are what one would expect in a courtroom when a defendant has been accused of a CRIME. In fact the way you have phrased your questions, makes those men sound more like some kind of "secret agents" - for we can't know what they were up to, can't tell whom they were by their garb, etc. Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents? Sheesh!

I have no clue how to tie this back in to our actual subject.
Oroblanco

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

An encounter between two vastly different people will inevitably result in bringing out the best and worst in both. This was true in New Mexico as the Spanish and Indians first faced each other four centuries ago. The Spanish felt that they had to make the Indians copies of themselves in order to make them good Christians. Naturally, the Indians resented this, and in their rejection of this "Europeanization," some rejected the evangelization efforts as well. This resulted in a very sad chapter in New Mexico’s history, as the Pueblo Revolt of 1680 pitted one group of God’s children against another.

There was eventually a reconciliation in 1692. As the old Spanish proverb says, No hay mal de que por bien no venga. (There is no evil from which good cannot come). This was true of the understanding reached between the two peoples after they agreed to peacefully coexist. The Spanish returned with a greater humility, still intent on preaching the Gospel, but seeking to do so in a way that respectfully took into account all that was good and holy in the native beliefs. The Indians, for their part, realized that they could not turn the clock back and that much of what the Spanish brought was beneficial, including the Catholic faith whose ritual and symbolism was similar to their beliefs and practices.

It is clear to us today that there were many failings on the part of the Spanish, including the failings of the Franciscan friars. There were incidences of cruelty and mistreatment, lack of respect for the native autonomy, culture and religious values. There was bloodletting on both sides, Spanish and native people. For these failings "we seek forgiveness and reconciliation."

Yet despite the failings, so much good has come to all people. Can you imagine the past 400 years without the cattle, horses and mules brought by the Spanish? What would it have been like these 400 years without the sheep and its wool to warm us on cold nights? The horses and the mules? Imagine a land without wheat and the horno in which to bake oven bread! Farm implements, codified laws, the idea of personal property, a written language. All these came with the settlers and enhanced the quality of life for all.

The imminent pueblo scholar and historian Professor Joe Sando has written of these positive accomplishments also. He notes that the Pueblo Indians have fared much better under the Spanish than the Indians on the East Coast of the United States. There are no Indian markets in Boston or New York! Their Indian culture was pretty well destroyed. Here in New Mexico, Indian culture still flourishes.

It is also clear that the Spanish benefited from the Native American presence. Where would they or any of us be without beans, squash and corn and the tortillas made from the corn? And to live with the Native Americans in this enchanted and beautiful land with majestic snow-covered mountains, deep valleys, dark forests, trout-filled streams and incredible sunsets. We have all benefited by the Indian's love for the land and care for the environment that God created for all. How powerful and meaningful are their dances, the sound of the drums and the tribal rituals. The Indian's respect for the Great Spirit and their hospitality at the celebration of their feast days is inspiring.

This isn't to say there was no mistreatment of the Indians. But we have to try to see the big picture and to appreciate that we all have sought to live together in peace for many years.

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Building on Solid Foundation
The 400th anniversary of the faith in New Mexico is a time of affirming our communion with the Universal Church, and our loyalty to the Holy Father and the bishops. This means to teach the faith, in doctrine and morals, as set forth by the Church; it means to celebrate the faith in the liturgy as the Church celebrates it; and it means to live the faith in solidarity. "A time to accept the uniqueness and giftedness of each person." It is a time for building on a sound foundation of 400 years.
Accomplishments of the Past
Building on their diversity, New Mexican Catholics have been able to accomplish much together and for which they can be proud.

•A Christian community older than the establishments at Jamestown or Plymouth Roc
•Spanish missions older by 150 years than the missions of California or Texas
•The oldest image of the Madonna in the New World (La Conquistadora, Our Lady of Peace in Santa Fe)
•The first native born priest, Santiago Roybal ordained in 1732
•The first school system in the State of New Mexico
•The first hospitals in New Mexico
•A proud record of lay involvement in the spread and maintenance of the faith
•The mother diocese of all the other dioceses of the American Southwest
And, this list goes on and on!

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

 

[ghostdog]

Hey Santa Fe great photos, by the way,where can I order 1 of those commerative medals.Also very nice gold vein, looks like easy pickins,not hard rock. Since I own some land in Candy Kitchen, we are sort of neighbors,although I live in Nevada. I appreciate your educated imputs.gd

 

[gollum]

Yeah Santa Fe,

Where did you get those pics?

 

[Springfield]

....Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents? Sheesh!

Now that's an interesting can of worms, Oro.

 

[lamar]

Ah, gentle folk, our topic in this thread is Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy, 1997 correct? Oh well....


Sorry if I will not agree with you Lamar, nor will I quit posting the other view of Jesuit history. Your set of barrister-like questions to our amigo Real de Tayopa about what sort of clothing those men wore, how do you know what they were looking for etc are what one would expect in a courtroom when a defendant has been accused of a CRIME. In fact the way you have phrased your questions, makes those men sound more like some kind of "secret agents" - for we can't know what they were up to, can't tell whom they were by their garb, etc. Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents? Sheesh!

I have no clue how to tie this back in to our actual subject.
Oroblanco

Dear Oroblanco;
No, of course not! The prescribed wearing of habits for Roman Catholic religious Orders was beginning to fall from vogue by the time the Society of Jesus was being formed, mostly because of the logistical difficulties in accquiring the proper cloth in the correct colors, finding a person who was skilled in cutting and manufacturing the garments, etc. Most Jesuit missionaries took to wearing black or brown robes in the missions as over time this became an unofficial habit of sorts, however, even though the Jesuits TRADITIONALLY now wear black robes, there does not exist an express rule or order requiring them to do so.

Over the centuries, most of the strict mendicant Orders have relaxed the dress habits of their members in order that the members blend in easier with the secular society and therefore more easily become accepted as members of a particular society or culture. A perfect example of the relaxing of traditional religious dress may be witnessed in the photo below of Fr. Reginald Foster, a Carmelite priest and one of the worlds' finest Latin linguists. In the photo below, Fr. Foster is wearing his typical working habit and we are starting to see this more and more among Roman Catholic priests and not just the Jesuits.

As an aside. Fr. Foster is a very highly acclaimed Latin scholar and professor and he taught at the famed Jesuit Gregorian University in Rome until he was *terminated* by the University staff for permitting unpaid students to attend his classes. To quote the Catholic News Agency on Fr. Foster's termination:
"According to the source, Fr. Foster, in good spirits, explained to his students the roundabout way he found out he was being fired: "Well you see, the Jesuits were rather Jesuitical about the whole thing, now weren't they?" After informing them of his plans for an institute, Foster exclaimed, “Latin lives!" It was not disclosed whether the e-mail firing Fr. Foster was in Latin."
Laudo terminus (Quote ended)

And so, we may plainly see that the wearing of traditional garb is mostly one personal preference and not one of actual regulation. I hope this serves to resolve the question of the Jesuits being involved in espionage.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

Skull & Crossbones? Are you kidding? Gee, Lamar, now that really is opening a can of worms. In case you didn't know (yeah, right), this symbol is prominent in the conspiracy theories of the 'organization' that includes Jesuits, among other groups, which controls the treasure cache legends that generates such divisive arguements on this forum and elsewhere. Bwa ha ha ha. Good one, Lamar - you have quite the sense of humor.

 

[cactusjumper]

Springfield,

With that name, you should realize that the Carmel Catholic High School in Mundelein, Illinois
baseball team is called the Corsairs (pirates). Fr. Reginald Foster is a Carmelite priest (Not Jesuit), and teaches Latin. "He is best known for his famous Latin summer courses which he holds every year. These courses are attended by students and scholars from around the world".Perhaps you can use that active imagination of yours to find the connection.

On the other hand, there may be no connection at all.

Give it a shot.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

With that name, you should realize that the Carmel Catholic High School in Mundelein, Illinois
baseball team is called the Corsairs (pirates). Fr. Reginald Foster is a Carmelite priest (Not Jesuit), and teaches Latin. "He is best known for his famous Latin summer courses which he holds every year. These courses are attended by students and scholars from around the world".Perhaps you can use that active imagination of yours to find the connection.

On the other hand, there may be no connection at all.

Give it a shot.

Take care,

Joe

Joe,
It doesn't take much of an imagination to glean the irony (Freudian slip?) in Lamar's post. Whether the guy is teaching classical Latin to the Carmel Pirates or pig Latin to the NY Yankees is irrelevent - the general discussion was centering on Jesuits and next we see a priest wearing the Jolly Roger as an example of an alternative dress option. Funny stuff.

Don't make the mistake relying too heavily on dogma in these types of discussions - an imaginative approach is often a path to new discoveries.

 

[lamar]

Dear Springfield;
It was merely an example attesting to the diversity of dress which may be found among Roman Catholic clergy in today's world. I posted a photo of Fr. Reggie Foster because he is a Carmelite priest who happens to be posted at the Vatican and this is his normal attire. In fact, he is known as "the Pope's Latinist".

Now, if a Carmelite priest, who works directly for the Pope, can dress in the manner of his own choosing, how can one be certain the priests in Real De Tayopa's post were in fact Jesuits? There was no irony intended in my example. I have no idea as to the signifigance of the skull & crossbones as it pretains to the fringe conspiracy theorists, as I prefer to spend my time studying actual history instead of alternative histories.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

The owner of this thread has reminded us previously that the subject of this thread is Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy, and our mutual amigo Gollum so graciously responded,

Gollum wrote

Okay,

For those who wish to debate Jesuit Treasures, I have completed the first part of the thread:

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,286969.msg2055760.html#msg2055760

I am guilty of contributing to the continuing hijacking of this thread into lengthy arguments on the Jesuits, which is NOT our topic. I will respond to the remaining posts which are off-topic, but will not contribute further to the derailing of this thread after this post.

<Oroblanco wrote>

Are you saying that Jesuits are in fact some kind of secret agents?

Springfield replied

Now that's an interesting can of worms, Oro

Lamar replied

Dear Oroblanco;
No, of course not!

Lamar also wrote

Now, if a Carmelite priest, who works directly for the Pope, can dress in the manner of his own choosing, how can one be certain the priests in Real De Tayopa's post were in fact Jesuits?

So you are again implying that they were possibly some kind of "secret agents" traveling incognito, keeping their purposes secret etc - sheesh Lamar you just finished telling us that the Jesuits were NOT some kind of secret agents, then go and imply that they WERE.

Hmmm....

Please look for my responses to any further discussion of Jesuits and their treasures in the thread created for that purpose by our amigo Gollum.
Oroblanco