Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

[gollum]

One last thing; Since this is a thread about Chuck Kenworthy, I will say this:

There seem to be a theme of a few things that I have had to repeat ad nauseum for several years here. This is one:

"Don't pay attention to what people say. Look at what they do. Look at their actions. That will usually give you a truer vision of that person's real intentions."

Apply this statement to Charles Kenworthy. He was a millionaire many times over from the Real Estate Business in Southern California before he ever became serious about treasure hunting. His books were basically self published, meaning, he spent his own money to put some of his knowledge in the public realm. How much money do you think he realized from his book sales during his lifetime? I can tell you.....not very much. The Treasure Hunting Community is not very big, and not many people outside this community would find much interest in his books (too much technical info and no action or romance). If he wanted to make money from writing, he would have written something like Pirates of the Caribbean.

He spent a small fortune with archivists, and he also spent a great deal of his own money investigating sites all around the United States. Are those the actions of a man who lied about receiving those copies of documents? I think not.

And the biggest "Tell" (poker terminology) to me about Chuck Kenworthy's frankness regarding the subject of treasure hunting: He had seven children. Only one of which had any real interest in treasure hunting. To this day, his family felt that he abandoned them in favor of treasure hunting. That is why it is a very sore subject with his family. It is sad, but it is true. I seriously doubt that Kenworthy would have obsessed over treasure hunting as badly as he did if did not have some inside knowledge.

That last statement is also a warning to anybody who is involved in this obsession (and it is an obsession if done correctly). Disbelievers have nothing to worry about, but those of you who believe in hidden caches of gold and silver, DON'T LOSE TRACK OF YOUR OTHER TREASURES! Family and friends. Chuck Kenworthy was like Atlantis (HAHAHA). Holding secret powerful knowledge is a magnificent thing, but misuse and obsession can lead to destruction!

I, for one, firmly believe that Chuck Kenworthy had those copies of documents he said he had. There is also another possibility that nobody has verbalized yet, that is a possibility. I won't say anything yet, until I find more information.

Best-Mike

 

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[cactusjumper]

Mike,

Consider the logistics of the King's Code. Every mine in the New World had to adhere to it's instructions. That meant that every miner had to have a copy of the rules and signs. What are the chances that not a single copy survived........anywhere. I know, the archives, but that's just a story. It may be fact, but with all the researchers pouring over those archives, someone would have found them.

If Kenworthy had really hired Dr. Eugene Lyon to search the Spanish Archives, I could give him the benefit of the doubt. The fact that Kenworthy lied to Roger about that "fact" is hard for me to overlook. There was no reason for him to make up that story. Roger was a huge fan of Kenworthy's.

No one knows why Kenworthy would make up such a story. No one knows why he would claim to have taken gold out of the Superstitions, but the people who would know say it never happened. Many millionaires are not happy with their lives. Tiger Woods is a great example, but there are many others. They feel a void in their lives and attempt to fill it. With treasure hunters, it's often unbelievable treasures, or secrets that no one else has. No need to point out those who have these secrets. We deal with them every day on this forum, 'cept I doubt any of them are millionaires.

Take care,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Joe,

Any time I have ever made a statement on the subject, I have always said that I highly doubt the existence of either a Jesuit Codebook or a Royal Codebook (as such). I agree with you 100% that if an actual Royal Codebook ever existed, then somehow or somewhere a copy would have turned up.

Do I believe that in remote places where mines could not be operated year round, that the owners monumented trails into and out of the mountains where their mines were located? Absolutely. Do I believe that it was such a common practice that monuments and markers were pretty standardized? Yep. Do I believe that maps into and out of the mine areas were filed with Authorities? Seen 'em. Do I drink CK's Koolaid and go along whole hog with everything he stated? Nope. Do I believe that he found (or had found for him) a rich source of gold in the Supers? Yep. Do I believe that he found 1028 silver bars presumed to be the Martyr Cache of Father Javier Saeta SJ? Yep. Seen the pics. Know where the hole is (still there). Do I believe that CK had those 116 pages of copies of Spanish Documents showing monuments and markers? Yep.

Here's what I was alluding to earlier:

DO I BELIEVE THAT CHUCK KENWORTHY MAY HAVE BEEN DEFRAUDED BY SOMEONE CLAIMING TO BE AN ARCHIVIST THAT MANUFACTURED SUCH DOCUMENTS FOR SALE? YEP! I have been privately offered such documents for sale, and upon researching the name of the person offering the documents. His name was Pavel Novak (not sure of spelling). As many people on this forum in the shipwrecks sections can attest, this man takes original documents and manufactures what you want out of them. He said that in his research for shipwrecks he had come across several documents that relate to land monuments. I had always wondered if he did that to CK. It is possible. BUT, there is one thing that flies against that notion. It is some personal knowledge that I have regarding CKs papers. It WILL take a lot more research, but the possibility is there.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

That all sounds perfectly good to me.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Gollum is not alone in his frustration with our friend Lamar, I recently reached the end of my patience with his extreme level of skepticism, Cubfan also had a similar experience. I don't care that Lamar (or SWR or anyone whom wishes to be skeptical to the point of a state of psychological denial) but won't waste time trying to change the mind of such a person. It is frustrating and aggravating, and life has plenty of frustration and aggravation without adding to it by endlessly debating and-or arguing with someone, trying to show them the evidence they demand but refuse to admit anything OR change their minds. Why bother?

Many of us here enjoy a GOOD debate, but a debate based on the simple assumption that we are arguing our points with rational, reasonably intelligent and reasoning persons. When we find we are spending hours of time and thought presenting our points to a person whom is incapable of seeing things any way other than their own sheer disbelief, a rational person will most often quit wasting time on such a skeptic. Life is too short, and we could be hob-nobbing with folks who do not have such extreme skepticism - or extreme fanatical beliefs for that matter.

I am not angry with Lamar (or SWR or any other of our resident skeptics) nor do I have a bone to pick with them, but am in agreement with Mike that it is pointless to debate with them. I find that I am in the "skeptics seat" often enough, but do try to keep an open mind as I believe most treasure hunters do.

Now to TRY to bring this post into line with our topic, as I do not know Chuck Kenworthy, let me ask Gollum a question about Mr Kenworthy. Do you think that Mr Kenworthy deliberately made false or misleading statements in his book Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman? Whether there ARE false and/or misleading statements is not my issue, but whether there was any INTENT to mislead his readers, in other words do you think Chuck (if I may be so informal with a person I never met) was stating what he believed to be true, or if he knew otherwise and was deliberately lying. Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

That is a tough one Roy! Because of some of the things I know for a fact he has found, I always tend to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Is it possible in my mind that he intentionally lied or misled others? Without stretching this out too much, I will say this again:

Chuck Kenworthy to the best of my knowledge was a firm believer in what he did. On the other hand, I have seen copies of letters he sent to people who had written him regarding their own sites. Some of them look like they were xeroxed copies with the names changed. Nothing specific, just something like "Looks like you have got something there. Keep up the hunt and don't give up. Treasure is out there." That's not exact, but pretty close to what I remember seeing.

People expected that since he was an expert in the field that he could answer everyone's questions about everything having to do with treaure hunting. Not wanting to disappoint fans or just ignore people when he got tired of answering questions, I think he probably had some standard verbiage he used like a form letter. I don't know that for certain, but that is my guess. I haven't written any books, but because of my posts here and my website, I get requests all the time from people wanting me to evaluate their sites and marks they have found. Can I answer all their questions all the time? Of course not, but I don't have a huge ego to satisfy, so, when I can't make anything of something, I say so. If all I see are natural cracks and nothing man made, I say that as well (funny though, I usually don't hear from those people any more). Sometimes though, I get a flash of brilliance and can make a good guess as to what something means. Occasionally I can even be pretty certain! HAHAHA

I think that there is only one person alive who can answer your question with any certainty, but I doubt he would say anything that would make his dad look bad.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Thank you Mike, I really was looking for your opinion. I don't have a problem with some changed names to protect privacy or similar such falsifications, in my book this is innocent and understandable. What kind of person would insist on absolute truthfulness in every detail, including the names of private persons whom could then be harrassed? I would not be interested in reading such works, and the authors of such works would be liable to lawsuits for invasions of privacy etc. Really only Kenworthy himself could say for a certainty whether he had included deliberate falsehoods or why. Thanks again,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

No Roy,

His son Tiger would be in a position to know the answer to that, but like I said, I doubt he would ever say anything to make his dad look bad.

Best-Mike

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
First and foremost I am committed to the facts and only the facts. This philosophy holds true on any and every subject which I may broach or debate and frankly I could care less about the opinions of others in this regard. People may call me a troll or any other vile, nasty name yet the one thing they cannot say is that I am a liar.

I challenge anyone on this forum to provide proof positive that Mr. Kenworthy had located a previously undiscovered historical document which outlined a coded system of symbols and signs for the purpose of marking mines and mineral deposits. I feel quite snug in the belief that such a document will not arise to the surface simply because the very thought of Spanish or Portugues royality penning such a document would be hugely incriminating, not to mention d@mning.

And so, what did I do? I called Mr. Kenworthy a liar. Plain, pure and simple. I did that and I will not deny doing it. I did so not only because of his proclaimations of having in his possession a document pretaining to signs and symbols supposedly written by the King of Spain, but also for the MYRIAD of mistakes, errors and other outlandish claims which he has littered his works with. If the truth were to be told, it's rather difficult to locate an historical accurate fact in any of Mr. Kenworthy's works.

If anyone thinks this to be untrue, then I challenge that person to put up a page, ANY page, from one of Mr. Kenworthy's books and I will quite cheerfully shoot down the statements written upon it, in flames.

On another note, my opinions are exactly that. They are OPINIONS! That I base my opinions entirely upon historical FACTS and not popular tripe should say something about who is a troll and who isn't. Also, my opinions are 100% free and I've never once asked for a dime or a favor for any of them before, unlike people such as Mr. Kenworthy who seemed to have made a decent living from peddling untruths. Again, this should say something about who is a troll and who isn't a troll.

Also, I am not a skeptic merely because I refuse to believe in treasure tales. I prefer to ground my searches in cold hard indisputable facts rather than base them on fanciful yarns and the beliefs of others. This is not skepticism gentlemen, this is realism. Merely wishing for a lost mine or treasure cache to appear is not enough to make it so. Only dedicated research will assist one in their search.

In closing I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their contributions to this and all the other forum topics and for supporting me. From the very bottom of my Gregorian chanting heart, I thank each and every one. May God bless all and keep you safe in His hands.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote

People may call me a troll or any other vile, nasty name yet the one thing they cannot say is that I am a liar.

I don't care if someone calls ME a liar - heck I've been told I was a natural born example! I have no intention of calling you any such names Lamar, you are what you are and as Popeye would say, "I yam what I yam".

Lamar also wrote

I called Mr. Kenworthy a liar.

It is easy to cast aspersions upon the dead man, and it is even popular today to "kick the dead lion" - attempting to assassinate the characters of MANY prominent historical figures. Not to say that Mr Kenworthy is necessarily a "prominent historical figure" but he cannot defend himself nor present his evidence against these types of accusations. I am guilty of this same act (kicking those dead lions) but try to avoid it. I have serious doubts about any kind of "official" or "Royal" treasure code, but would NOT say it must be impossible simply because I have failed to find any supporting evidence that it exists. Anything is possible, and IF this "code" were not intended for public consumption (this would be assuming that most of our modern treasure hunters have misinterpreted the original intent of such a code) then I would even say that in the case of a king directly owning a mine he did not want to become public knowledge, it would make sense for that king - be he Spanish, Portuguese, French or whatever, to have his own PRIVATE "code" system.

Lamar also wrote

I am not a skeptic merely because I refuse to believe in treasure tales.

Not believing in "treasure tales" really helps cut down on the number of treasures one has to go hunt for, and your constant work to dissuade our readers is doing a bang-up job of keeping the competition down, so keep at it! Now if you could just convince ALL of our readers that there never were any lost treasures, no lost mines and any gold or silver they find is pyrites but your online friend Oroblanco will be happy to take it off their hands, we will make tremendous progress! We could even put it into a chant form, to reinforce the belief - just have our readers say to themselves repeatedly, "There are no such things as lost treasures, there are no such things as lost treasures..."

Lamar also wrote

In closing I would like to take this opportunity to thank everyone for their contributions to this and all the other forum topics and for supporting me. From the very bottom of my Gregorian chanting heart, I thank each and every one. May God bless all and keep you safe in His hands.

Well thank YOU amigo for all of the great historical information you have selflessly provided to our readers! I was going to simply write "Ditto" but for that part about the Gregorian chanting, which is not in my heart so it would be a falsehood and everyone hates falsehoods. Gregorian chanting eh? Now if someone were to put two and two together, such as your mention of your vows of honesty, former marital status, even poetic nature, a person might get the impression you were a member of some religious order. See how easily folks can get the wrong ideas?

I had in mind to ask you about a particular Castilian priest who was working in Arizona in the 1770's but that would be drifting off topic and this post is long enough already. Good luck and good hunting amigos (including you Lamar) I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[gollum]

Funny quote there Roy!

I called Mr Kenworthy a liar.

Funny how someone who claims to have taken a "vow of honesty" can call someone whom they have never met nor had ANY dealings with a liar. Funny thing, huh?

Like you said. Its' so easy to defame a person who is not here to speak in his own defense. Maybe if Lamar has some hard evidence of his own that proves CK was a liar, his words wouldn't seem so empty or hollow, devoid of integrity even. Intellectually dishonest even. Although, it does give an idea of one's character.

I have said it before, I don't know everything about CK. I don't know as much as many people, but I have PERSONALLY found no evidence of deceit on his part regarding treasure hunting. I can assure everybody that should I ever find any incontrovertible evidence of such actions, I will shout it to the heavens. I have done it for several other famous treasure hunting authors, and would not hesitate to do it to any others I find.

Best-Mike

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Another thing.

A very good, moral, and honest Born Again Christian, who has a more extensive technical background than ANYONE here seems to hold CK in very high regard. He knew him for many years and was with CK on many treasure hunting expeditions all over the world. His name is Lambert Dolphin. The former head research scientist for the Stanford Research Institute (SRI). One of the fathers of modern Ground Penetrating Radar. He is also a long time treasure hunter.

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Gollum wrote

Funny how someone who claims to have taken a "vow of honesty" can call someone whom they have never met nor had ANY dealings with a liar. Funny thing, huh?

I do find that peculiar at the least. But then a lot of folks say I am pretty danged "peculiar" too, so I can't get any mileage out of it! Our amigo Lamar is one of our resident skeptics, whose stated mission is to "shoot down theories" but not willing to change his views regardless of what evidence or argument is presented, so I have some doubt as to his status as "unbiased observer" - which makes me question his posts.

I am guilty of that same 'sin' - casting aspersions on a dead man, a VERY popular treasure hunter and author <Barry Storm> but in his defense I will say this - I believe that whatever falsifications he did or wrote, were done out of his own personal beliefs in order to promote the legends (and indirectly, Arizona and the Superstition Mountains) and NOT as any attempt to deliberately fool people for gain or laughs. There is a huge difference (in my view) between a person who tells a lie he knows is a lie and has no such belief in, and one who tells a falsehood that he personally believes to be true and correct. Since Mr Kenworthy was financially successful OUTSIDE of book-writing, and based on what you (Mike) have told me of him as a man, I have to give him the benefit of the doubt concerning any erroneous information he published.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Mike,

What you say is true, but Kenworthy did lie to a good friend of mine. I spoke to Dr. Eugene Lyon and confirmed that he never worked for Chuck, and had never heard of the "King's Code". Despite that I believe most of the people who had personal contact with Chuck respected and liked him.

Many of the Dutch Hunters who were at Pro Mac in 1993, have told me they were embarrassed for the man. Once you see the DVD, you may have another opinion than they did.

Tiger was in the Superstition Mountains three years ago, so he is still following in his father's footsteps.
There was no public fanfare, that I know of, but he was there.

Most of the time, there is no explanation for why men do what they do. I believe, often, even they don't know.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"I believe that whatever falsifications he did or wrote, were done out of his own personal beliefs in order to promote the legends (and indirectly, Arizona and the Superstition Mountains) and NOT as any attempt to deliberately fool people for gain or laughs."

Barry Storm's "Thunder God's Gold" was my first book on the subject, as well as the first book my Uncle Chuck read. He was hooked immediately and so was I. For many years, his word was Gospel for me. Fifty-two years later, I have come to realize that he never lost sight of the dollar and there was a great deal of fiction created by the man........and sold as historical fact.

Check your personal messages.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

CJ,

Just curious - but are speaking of the Senior or Junior (Kenworthy)?

B

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Beth,

Chuck Senior. On the other hand, I have been told that Tiger ghostwrote Seniors books.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Barry Storm's "Thunder God's Gold" was my first book on the subject, as well as the first book my Uncle Chuck read. He was hooked immediately and so was I. For many years, his word was Gospel for me. Fifty-two years later, I have come to realize that he never lost sight of the dollar and there was a great deal of fiction created by the man........and sold as historical fact.

Perhaps I ought not have included "gain" but heck all prospectors and most treasure hunters are out for gain, so he may have had his own agenda for profit, but Joe are you saying that Barry Storm did not believe there were treasures and/or lost mines in the Superstitions? Thank you in advance,
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

No. Barry Storm was a treasure hunter, and we all know there is treasure.....everywhere.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Roy,

No. Barry Storm was a treasure hunter, and we all know there is treasure.....everywhere.

Take care,

Joe

Especially in people's pockets - just ask Crazy Jake (sorry couldn't resist)