Book: Treasure Secrets of the LD by Kenworthy , 1997

[alaskabill]

Hello Bill
Sorry about that, I left work early yesterday, I found that link thru a link Oro posted in another forum, Books of the southwest at the University of Arizona Library, Rudo Ensayo: A Deseription of Sonora and Arizona, 1764. A very good read.
FEMF

Hi, FEMF....

Not to worry, my friend, I appreciate your attempt to help me in my search. I'll check out the "Description" when I get a chance.

Bill

 

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[alaskabill]

Bill,

You are not the first to search for any documentation for the "King's Code". I believe it does not exist, and never did. If you think about it, it is illogical to think it would be kept secret. I have never seen where Kenworthy published that he had found the codes.

If you find them, the treasure hunting comunity will beat a path to your doorway.

Take care,

Joe

Hi Joe,

You make a good point and I agree. If provided to explain how an author came to his or her conclusions, for example finding an actual site, the analysis, argument, conclusions, and the author receive significantly more credibility. Also, another book about the "King's Code" could be published and sold.

After digging out my books by K, I am of the opinion that he did exactly that. I found the following discussion in the "Acknowledgments" and "Introduction" sections on pages 7 and 11 of Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadows, and Sun Signs, 1991:

Page 7


Page 11


Apparently Kenworthy claims that he received copies of what might be referred to as “The King’s Code” and used these rules, definitions, and signs to interpret the maps and trail signs. These tools led him to his findings described in is 1997 book, Treasure Secrets of the Lost Dutchman.

However, to satisfy my curiosity I wish I had access to those same original rules, definitions and signs to see if I would make the same interpretations. I also would like to get back to Labarge Canyon to view those trail markers myself. In this book by K, he took good pictures and using the documentation he received, identifies exactly where at least one of the Peralta/Gonzales (LDM?) mines was located.

Quite a few folks have viewed this thread so far but no one seems to have read K’s book or hasn’t formed an opinion about it enough to put in their “2 cents”. I hope more will.

It appears that K had a few PHDs and archivists helping him and he did receive copies of the “official” Spanish mapping and code system (he doesn’t mention Dr. Lyon, however). I have to assume that he publicly shared the mapping and marking rules of the "Code" when he published his other books, particularly Treasure Signs, Symbols, Shadow and Sun Signs. Nevertheless, I still would like to see copies of the original sources.

Too bad Kenworthy has passed away. I would like to ask him a few questions about his research and conclusions.

Bill

 

[alaskabill]

Another book that may be what your looking for goes to the next phase or step beyond Kenworthy's books. This guy Jim Price some how got access to the information Kenworthy leaves out of his book's and he has been finding treasures ever since. He's hard to contact and doesn't want to be. I don't blame him. He never did come out with any more books just like Kenworthy hasn't. But his method of explaining what some would call the "King's Code" makes it simple to follow to the smelter site's and storage area's of the various Spanish gold mines.

Jim Price's:

Treasure Trails Volume 1 "Spanish Signs and Symbols Made Simple"

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/images/0970440901/?tag=treasurenet01-20

Thanks, Bob,

I've added Jim's book to my Christmas Wish List. Looking forward to reading this one.

Bill

 

[alaskabill]

I've read every book of Kenworthy's and can honestly tell you he seems to know what he's saying in some of it and contradicting himself on other parts. I think he intended for it to be that way.

Hi Bob,

I get the same impression. I am looking forward to reading the book by Jim Price and see if he acknowledges Kenworthy as a source of information.

Bill

 

[alaskabill]

......... and contradicting himself on other parts. .......

Bob,

Yes, I got the same impression. Did you find any of these contradictions in Treasure Secrets of the LD ? If you have an example or two, I'd like to compare notes.

Bill

 

[gollum]

Okay, time for me to weigh in here:

Regardless what some may think about CK, there are a few things that everybody should know:

1. He showed a friend of mine a LOT of very high grade (bonanza) ore in the trunk of his car that came from the Supers. I implicitly trust my friend's word. He was a good friend of CK before his death in 1999.

2. He found 1028 silver bars in Southern Arizona. The Jesuit Martyr Cache of Padre Javier Saeta SJ after his murder in 1695.

There are more finds, and I was hesitant about posting some of this info. The trunk of gold ore was never published, but the silver bars did make it into a rarely seen article. CK is one of the very few people in the treasure hunting family who has EVER found anything of consequence. I have met a load of people in this obsession who claim to have a lot of knowledge about symbols and hidden meanings, buuuuuuuuuuuuuut, when it comes to where the rubber meets the road, I can count the number of people who have REALLY found anything on two hands (with fingers to spare). I have said this many times before: choose to believe anybody you want, but take EVERYTHING you hear with a grain of salt. The funny thing is, the people I have met who have the most REAL knowledge in regards to treasure hunting........you have never heard of (probably )

That being said, he did have some personal issues that didn't endear him to some. I don't know the source of Joe's Friend who had this conversation with CK, but I trust Joe, and he says he trusts this friend. Good enough for me. Why CK would lie about Dr. Lyons I have no idea. Is it possible that Dr. Lyons lied about a relationship with CK? That is possible as well, since he was employed at the time by the Fishers researching the Atocha. I could not say either way. I DO KNOW FOR A FACT that he had MANY sources of archival documents. He spent a small fortune getting the copies of documents he did.

He was a millionaire several times over from the real estate market in Southern California before ever seriously getting into Treasure Hunting. He had the money to pay for access to archives and archivists. I know one and have met another that have seen the hundreds of pages of documents that belonged to CK.

As far as your scans, I also know Dr. Lambert Dolphin (formerly of Stanford Research Institute). He verified to me personally that he came out and did several GPR (ground penetrating radar) Surveys of different treasure sites CK was working on.

Another thing I can say with a very high degree of surety is that while CK did share a lot of his information in his books, he held back probably as much. One thing many people fail to realize is that CK was a Treasure Hunter, not a philanthropist. He paid a great deal of money to get the information he got. All the mooches in the treasure hunting world seem to think that this is some great sin, that he wouldn't share ALL the info he got over the years.

AlaskaBill,

You did come close to a truth in one of your posts, and you could have answered your own question had you looked a little closer. The name of the company that published his books was Quest Publishing. In the "Signs, Symbols, Shadow, and Sun Signs" Book, he states that:

I had already formed "THE QUEST, AN EXPLORATION CORPORATION"

Coincidence? Not likely.

CK was a complicated person. While his accomplishments were tremendous he had some pretty serious character flaws (ego being one). Since I started my own obsession with treasure hunting, I have always tried to find the truth behind not only the stories, but the authors (hence my username of Gollum, who climbed to the roots of the mountains in order to find the truth of all things). I have been pretty disappointed by almost every well known treasure hunter I have researched (I say Almost because Frank Fish seems to have been a pretty straight shooter, as well as Karl Von Mueller). I also possess a good bit of CKs research materials. Like some genuinely gifted psychics, he couldn't produce "on demand" so to speak, and probably "improvised" and "embellished" on occasion (being polite). That's the reason why a good treasure hunting TV Show has never been done. A special every now and then, when something good has been found is one thing, but a weekly audience expects you to find "SOMETHING" or they will lose interest very quickly. This leads to either making crap up (Ghost Hunters) or a very boring TV Show. Maybe Joe can mail me a copy of that DVD. That kind of thing interests me greatly.

I know a lot of the Apache Junction Folks look at CK as a joke, but because of what I KNOW he found, I am always willing to give him the benefit of the doubt.

Best-Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

Hello Mike,

Send me your mailing address.

Take care,

Joe

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The article posted by AlaskaBill concerning the translation of the volume "De Metallic Re" is incorrect. President Hoover did not translate the text, rather his wife did, who was a VERY highly accomplished Latin linguistic scholar. She was one of the top Latinists of her time, of all time really, and her husband, President Hoover was a mining engineer and he had no grasp of Latin, so at his behest, his wife, Lou Henry Hoover, translated the text.

She was also an accomplished geologist and spoke several languages quite readily, including Mandarin Chinese. In fact, Mrs. Hoover's translation of De metallic Re was so good that I was able to find only two mistakes in the original printing. Considering the size and scope of the text, this was an incredible feat and the translation must have taken years to accomplish.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

....I have said this many times before: choose to believe anybody you want, but take EVERYTHING you hear with a grain of salt....

Everyone on this forum who actually DOES want the truth of things should have this tattooed on their arm. There are NO unimpeachable sources of information available in the public domain.

 

[alaskabill]

Hi Mike,

Thank you for a through post. You provided a wealth of background material for me that I found to be very interesting which filled in a lot of blanks in my knowledge and understanding of CK.

I just wish that I had read his books earlier and had a chance to query him about some of his analysis directly. After I posted the comments about self-publishing his books, I went back and also found as you pointed out his comment that he had formed his "Quest" corporation (LLC). And Quest he lists as the publisher.

I am still looking for some kind of verification that CK used "official" royal Spanish definitions and procedures to interpret the map and trail signs and symbols. For the time being, I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Bill

 

[lamar]

Dear alaskabill;
You pondered:
I am still looking for some kind of verification that CK used "official" royal Spanish definitions and procedures to interpret the map and trail signs and symbols. For the time being, I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt.

I can already tell you, my friend, that you will not find the verificiation which you are seeking because it simply does not exist. There are no hidden documents pertaining to the New World colonies, either in Spain, Italy, The Vatican, or any other parts of Europe. Everything that has been written pertaining to the New World has been recorded and preserved in one of the many archives housed throughout Europe and Latin America,

There is no grand conspiracy theory nor are there any secrets, my friend. All that remains of Spanish interaction in the New World are the historical facts. Enough time has passed that any and all deep dark secrets may be revealed without reprecussions, as all of the participants are long dead and buried. All past transgressions have been revealed and studied, my friend. Nothing remains except the facts. Charles Kenworthy made up the part about the Royal Spanish secret marking system and he did so in order to sell his books.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Springfield]

... I am still looking for some kind of verification that CK used "official" royal Spanish definitions and procedures to interpret the map and trail signs and symbols. For the time being, I am also giving him the benefit of the doubt....

Understandable, considering that so many have accepted, and defend the belief that this 'revelation' is the real deal. Human nature never seems to change does it? At least you are seeking verification. It hasn't surfaced yet.

 

[gollum]

Alaskabill,

They do exist, but it is not likely that they will come to light (unless there is more money to made by doing that than by keeping them secret and using their information for personal gain).

Lamar,

Your roots are showing again! HAHAHA The documents in question are by no means archive secrets. They are, however, buried within hundreds of years of other historical documents. Unless you have personally looked at every document in every archive (or have been an Archive Secretary at the Curia or Archivo Segretto in Rome, The Royal Archives of Seville, or Archivo de los Indios, or the Archives in Mexico City or Acapulco).

You stated:

Everything that has been written pertaining to the New World has been recorded and preserved in one of the many archives housed throughout Europe and Latin America,

You are correct here. As I stated, they are not secret, just buried (that I know of).

You also use the phrase "De Metallic Re" in a very authoritative manner. The title of the tome is "De Re Metallica". Should you attempt to argue that your Latin Verbiage is the correct, I choose to use that used by Georgii Agricolae on the published title page of HIS BOOK (see scan below).

Best-Mike

 

[Oroblanco]

Lamar wrote, <in reply to AlaskaBill>

There is no grand conspiracy theory nor are there any secrets, my friend.

Surely you are not that naive Lamar? Have you researched European history well enough, and yet somehow not have noticed the incredible spaghetti mass of intrigues, conspiracies, plots even assassinations which were (and likely are) rife in European governments of the 16th, 17th, 18th and 19th centuries. Not to mention the various examples in European churches, and not just the Roman Catholic. In just one example, the French intervention in Mexico, the courts of Napoleon III, the Hapsburgs, the British monarchy, the USA and the church were all involved in various "secret" proceedings. I have to wonder why you would make such a statement, when the truth is very plainly revealed to be absolutely to the contrary.

AlaskaBill, do your own research and you will reach your own conclusions, and beware when someone tells you "there is no conspiracy" or "there are no secrets" - for everyone has an agenda, including ME.
Oroblanco

 

[alaskabill]

LAMAR wrote:

I can already tell you, my friend, that you will not find the verificiation which you are seeking because it simply does not exist.

Springfield wrote:

Understandable, considering that so many have accepted, and defend the belief that this 'revelation' is the real deal. Human nature never seems to change does it? At least you are seeking verification. It hasn't surfaced yet.

gollum wrote:

They do exist, but it is not likely that they will come to light (unless there is more money to made by doing that than by keeping them secret and using their information for personal gain).

oroblanco wrote:

do your own research and you will reach your own conclusions...

I appreciate all your comments and have been thinking about how to proceed. I decided to approach the verification process from a slightly different angle.

I did a Google search and found a few contacts for SRI International (previously known as SRI), Kenworthy's reported research assistance and source of "King's Code" documents. I sent two emails; one to the manager of the company's alumni association and another to a contact in the administration. I requested them to verify Kenworthy's contact and association with their organization and specifically the three Phd researchers that K indicated by name as those who assisted him and the source of his Spanish Archive documents.

If SRI reports no contact with Kenworthy, then Kenworthy's claim of "King's Code" documents is in serious doubt and Mr. K looses most of his credibility in my mind.

I'll post the SRI response when received.

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I have already done that and confirmed Chuck Kenworthy's association with two of the men, from SRI, that he mentioned in his book. Lambert Dolphin went into the Superstitions with Chuck many times. Two places where you can contact Lambert are: http://www.ldolphin.org/URLres.shtml
and: lambert@ldolphin.org

Much of the information on his website is related to his Christian activities, but he does have a portion dedicated to treasure hunting. If you scroll down, you will find it.

Roger had an association with Chuck and continues that with "Tiger", Chuck's son. Chuck, Jr. is still interested in the Superstition Mountains. It is believed that he still has all of his father's papers.

Good luck and good hunting,

Joe

 

[gollum]

Bill,

I don't think SRI (as an entity) had any association with CK. It was only a couple of well known individuals that happened to work for SRI tghat CK had individual relationships with.

Best-Mike

 

[alaskabill]

Joe and Mike,

Thanks for the additional information. It will be interesting to see how SRI responds. Glad to have the additional contact info.

I might go through Quest and see if I can get some info from K Jr about any such "King's Code" documentation. I would be satisfied if he confirmed that "yes" his father had such copies of documents from the Archives in Spain and used them to write his "Signs, Symbols,..." book in 1991 and his LDM analysis........ or have you already done that also, Joe?

Bill

 

[cactusjumper]

Bill,

I have heard that it was "Tiger" who wrote Chuck's books for him. I have also heard that "Tiger" is not an easy man to contact.

Take care,

Joe

 

[alaskabill]

Joe,

It's interesting to learn that he had his son do the writing. When I get the chance, I am going to try to reach CK Jr and ask him about the documentation.

Bill