Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[bigscoop]

What does this have to do with the Beale Treasure? So Austin went to Texas in 1821 and had land grants from the Spanish. It did not last long a year or two. Daniel Boone was also given land by the Spanish in Missouri as well as scores of other families such as the Cooper Family. Cooperstown ring a bell. Yes Spanish land grants were granted but most of the Anglo-Americans did not move in to Texas until the 1830's. Hardly proves anything connected to the Beale Treasure in Bedford County, Virginia or the locals that lived and printed the story in Campbell County, Virginia.

You guys keep focusing on the "Beale Papers" instead of focusing on all the other information that YOU NEED TO FULLY UNDERSTAND FIRST. Per example, for years and years posters have been posting inaccurate rhetoric in regards to Spain's iron first in the Southwest, claiming that Spain wanted nothing to do with Americans in their territories. But this information is 100% inaccurate, just as the Moses case details, just as the Beale case details, etc. America was full of all manner of opportunist and Spain and Mexico was entertaining them even before the Adams Onis Treaty, these opportunist pursuing all manner of land grab and get rich schemes in the Spanish/Mexican west, including insurgencies, some of these in full cooperation with Mexican sources. You want to know how a man ends up with the nickname "Mexico" as early as 1815 and you need look no further for your answer, the man's own history even hinting at such. In order to find certain things that lead back to Virginia you must leave Virginia in order to find them, research what you have long avoided or allowed yourselves to consider. Doesn't matter what I show you here or what I tell you here, what matters is what you find for yourself as that is the only way you'll ever understand everything I've explained and suggested to you. You guys keep saying that I have failed to make a direct connection between Thomas J. Beale and the pamphlet but in this you are clearly wrong.

 

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[bigscoop]

If John T. Beale had family out in Texas, and that family was related to John Charles Beales/Beale, then what is this saying about the Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, John T. Beale's father? This is where you have to go through all of those relevant Beale/Beales genealogical summaries with a fine toothed comb, dig into things for yourself instead of believing only those you desire/want to believe. So you tell me, is it my mistake or someone else's? Only one way to render that opinion for yourself.

 

[franklin]

If John T. Beale had family out in Texas, and that family was related to John Charles Beales/Beale, then what is this saying about the Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, John T. Beale's father? This is where you have to go through all of those relevant Beale/Beales genealogical summaries with a fine toothed comb, dig into things for yourself instead of believing only those you desire/want to believe. So you tell me, is it my mistake or someone else's? Only one way to render that opinion for yourself.

First how could John T. Beale's father be Thomas J. Beale? Don't make sense. If Thomas J. Beale was born in 1823 how could he be the father of John T. Beale owning Spanish Land Grants before 1821? You tell me.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

He LIVES! Da VAMPIRE!

 

[ECS]

Here, here's the "very basics" for you...it was very-very easy to find online....step away from that tiny Virginia port hole when you read it, recognize many of the dates and names and locations, etc. It's ok.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Austin

A lead mine in southwest Virginia is not a treasure vault of gold, silver, and jewels.
Just more Bigscoop pet theory forced fit facts.

 

[ECS]

You guys keep focusing on the "Beale Papers" instead of focusing on all the other information that YOU NEED TO FULLY UNDERSTAND FIRST... Doesn't matter what I show you here or what I tell you here... You guys keep saying that I have failed to make a direct connection between Thomas J. Beale and the pamphlet but in this you are clearly wrong.

Ward's 1885 copyrighted BEALE PAPERS is the FOCUS of this discussion, and yes your show and tell here doesn't matter because it has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE BEALE NARRATIVE STORY in the dime novel job pamphlet.
SO far, though, you have confirmed with this never ending fantastical history tour is the 1885 Beale Papers story is fiction, as well as the two unsolved ciphers and the treasure they were alleged to lead.

 

[franklin]

A lead mine in southwest Virginia is not a treasure vault of gold, silver, and jewels.
Just more Bigscoop pet theory forced fit facts.

That was the lead mines at Ingles' Ferry. Everyone knew that mine was there for scores of years. It was worked earlier and had small amounts of gold and silver. Lead for the American Revolution came from here along with the salt from Saltville, Virginia which was heavily fought over during the Civil War. But like ECS it has nothing to do with the Beale Papers.

 

[bigscoop]

It's funny how ECS tries to change directions of a thread........but like I said earlier, "I have no idea why he thinks the land grants, and now a lead mine, have anything directly to do with the Beale pamphlet story?" Maybe he'll explain his thinking as I certainly haven't suggested such.

 

[bigscoop]

First how could John T. Beale's father be Thomas J. Beale? Don't make sense. If Thomas J. Beale was born in 1823 how could he be the father of John T. Beale owning Spanish Land Grants before 1821? You tell me.

.....Which John Beale (son) came to visit Thomas J. Beale in Richmond, arriving from Texas, in 1886? Where did he come from in Texas, exactly? What was his business and did he have family out there? And if he did have family out there who were they, exactly, and what was their family history? Be careful here in your research though as there are several differences of genealogical opinion on this.

 

[ECS]

It's funny how ECS tries to change directions of a thread but like I said earlier, "I have no idea why he thinks the land grants, and now a lead mine, have anything directly to do with the Beale pamphlet story?" Maybe he'll explain his thinking as I certainly haven't suggested such.

Then why include links to them in this idle punctilio?

 

[bigscoop]

Then why include links to them in this idle punctilio?

Look, the period of interest is 1817 - 1821/22, everything you keep focusing on is post period. The links I posted contain a lot of other information as to how far back these concerns/involvements date, some of them even before the turn of the century and the Louisiana purchase. At this much earlier time "Americans" were active in trying to gain access to Spanish territories west of the Mississippi, Moses Austin just being one example of these early efforts, his contacts with the both the Spanish government and representatives of the various Mexican juntas pre-dating the Adams Onis Treaty by several years. Beale/Beales was no different as the dates of the grants were finally issued hardly portray the many prior years of vigorous pursuit and activities in building the required relations. What you really need to research is how those land masses were selected for the grants, many of these being presented "by the hopeful participant" which certainly concludes that "they had good intelligence" regarding those specific areas. What you want to ask yourself is how they had gathered that intelligence? Obviously someone was doing a great deal of reminiscence for them and providing them with the required information.

Having said all of the above, the same thing can be said of the insurgents, obviously someone providing them with their intelligence, ect., etc., etc. And this is what I've been driving at all along, there is all of the basic information relating to these things and then there is all of the other more intimate details that made all of that basic history possible. Let me ask you, if Beales married into the Soto family who was directly related to Mexican rebels do you think it just happened one day or do you think there had been several years of courting that family and that relationship? Do you think Beales Spanish and Mexican "friends" just popped up suddenly or do you think there had already existed a fostered relationship? I've always maintained, and said it many times in these forums, that the answers we get are often subject to the questions we allow ourselves to ask.

Point simply being, if there is any truth regarding those deposits of 1819 & 1821 then we need to focus on those possible events that lead up to them, not all the events that took place afterwards.

 

[ECS]

Look, the period of interest is 1817 - 1821/22, everything you keep focusing on is post period. The links I posted contain a lot of other information as to how far back these concerns/involvements date, some of them even before the turn of the century and the Louisiana purchase...

Point simply being, if there is any truth regarding those deposits of 1819 & 1821 then we need to focus on those possible events that lead up to them, not all the events that took place afterwards.

The point simply being that Dr John Charles Beales of Suffolk , England and then New York didn't go to Mexico until 1830, his grant was 1832 when he attempted to start a colony, which is 10 years after those deposit dates in the Beale Papers that obsessively link to the Adams-Onis Treaty in your never ending idle punctilio.
PS: Dr John Charles Beales and his wife Dolores de Soto Beales never went to Virginia, are not related to the Jackson Ward Alderman or to the Thomas J Beale character of the 1885 Beale Papers dime novel job pamphlet.

 

[ECS]

It's funny how ECS tries to change directions of a thread...

Its funny how you never address the questions on how any of your historical ramblings has anything to do with James Beverly Ward, or his copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet containing "authentic statements" about a treasure buried in Bedford county.

 

[ECS]

... You guys keep saying that I have failed to make a direct connection between Thomas J. Beale and the pamphlet but in this you are clearly wrong.

The reason being that you have not presented any direct connection between any Thomas J Beale and the dime novel pamphlet except confirming that it was a work of fiction.

 

[bigscoop]

The point simply being that Dr John Charles Beales of Suffolk , England and then New York didn't go to Mexico until 1830, his grant was 1832 when he attempted to start a colony, which is 10 years after those deposit dates in the Beale Papers that obsessively link to the Adams-Onis Treaty in your never ending idle punctilio.
PS: Dr John Charles Beales and his wife Dolores de Soto Beales never went to Virginia, are not related to the Jackson Ward Alderman or to the Thomas J Beale character of the 1885 Beale Papers dime novel job pamphlet.

....well, you have some of it correct, and still missing what I have explained to you several times now. If you will "take the required time" and actually research "everything leading up to those grants" you're going to discover that Beale/Beales had "old friends" in the Texas region, both Mexican and Spanish, that aided him in acquiring those grants. I never stated that Beales went to Mexico or that HE ever went to Virginia, this is all you as result of your desire to take so many quick and convenient short cuts in your research efforts. What you present in protest isn't even scratching the surface as to what is out there waiting for you but you're still grabbing basic info from the internet without actually grabbing all of it and seeing where that goes, but rather you're only grabbing what you want to grab.

 

[ECS]

...and you are posting only what you want to support this left field off the wall theory about the "authentic statements" in the 1885 Beale Papers, while you still avoid answering the basic question presented about Ward's connection to any of what you have posted or how it related to the fictional Beale narrative story in that dime novel job pamphlet, or Bedford county, Virginia.

 

[ECS]

.. you're only grabbing what you want to grab.

I like that -BIGSCOOP's GRAB BAG HISTORY!

 

[bigscoop]

...and you are posting only what you want to support this left field off the wall theory about the "authentic statements" in the 1885 Beale Papers, while you still avoid answering the basic question presented about Ward's connection to any of what you have posted or how it related to the fictional Beale narrative story in that dime novel job pamphlet, or Bedford county, Virginia.

....yet again, Ward came after the 1817-1821/22 events, and just as the narration details - he was just the agent. Why everyone desires to assume that Ward knew anything at all about the true nature of the tale is beyond me? Most likely this is also attributed to all of the local romance and lore that has propagated over the years. Everyday people are selecting agents for all sorts of publications, just as they always have, nothing new in any of this and in fact it's so common it's not even a mystery, happens every day.

 

[ECS]

....yet again, Ward came after the 1817-1821/22 events, and just as the narration details - he was just the agent...

Why Ward as agent for copyright?
Why Lynchburg for publication and sale if any of what you posted is related to the 1885 Beale Papers?
What was the motive for presenting a fictional manuscript, if as you have constantly stated, has nothing to do with real events?
Who paid for the printing and advertising of the 1885 Beale Papers and who received the profits?

 

[bigscoop]

Why Ward as agent for copyright?
Why Lynchburg for publication and sale if any of what you posted is related to the 1885 Beale Papers?
What was the motive for presenting a fictional manuscript, if as you have constantly stated, has nothing to do with real events?
Who paid for the printing and advertising of the 1885 Beale Papers and who received the profits?

Why Ward as agent for copyright? Uh.....I think your author explains his reasons quite well, in fact.

Why Lynchburg for publication and sale if any of what you posted is related to the 1885 Beale Papers? Uh....I think this question has already been addressed and answered several times in several different threads.

What was the motive for presenting a fictional manuscript, if as you have constantly stated, has nothing to do with real events? Uh....again, another question that has been addressed and explained several times already in several different threads.

Who paid for the printing and advertising of the 1885 Beale Papers and who received the profits? You have proof of profits? From what I can tell the venture was never very profitable. Yet another question "we have both addressed" many times over the years.

And once again, this is all post 1817-1821/22 material surrounding all the local lore and romance that you have swallowed to the very last bite.. i.e., "If Ward was the agent then he had to know all of the details" which simply isn't true at all. "If it was only marketed in the local area then it had to be only a local affair" which is a ridiculous conclusion as people and businesses have always advertised and published in targeted regions that were far from home. The world is also full of alternate manuscripts relating to something else, so yet another ridiculous propagated local conclusion that "everyone involved had to be a local."