Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[franklin]

We're up to 7 now. Start looking into the businesses affairs of those in the region, etc. You might be surprised what you find.

And just how do we go about looking into the business affairs of those in the region? Do you have a crystal ball?

 

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[bigscoop]

Yes, you are avoiding the question of connecting all this random history to Ward and the Beale Papers.
PS: Jackson Ward Alderman Thomas J Beale was born in 1823 in Richmond, Virginia as a freeman of color.
Dr John Charles Beales and Dolores de Soto Beales (Beales was her 2nd husband) were never in Richmond or Virginia.
I am sure you knew that but forgot to mention that fact.

What does John Beales and Dolores Beales having never been in Richmond have to do with anything? See, in your mind, you're still locked into all of that local lore and romance that demands that "everyone" involved in any portion of this history'tale had to be from the Lynchburg region, you just can't see beyond this very tiny window that you've created for yourself. I can't fix that for you no matter what I put out here as you will forever remain in complete denial of anything that's outside of your tiny field of view. Others are finding this stuff and more that I wasn't even aware of. Just because they don't dare to post in these turbulent forums doesn't mean that they aren't staying abreast and following up on things.

 

[bigscoop]

And just how do we go about looking into the business affairs of those in the region? Do you have a crystal ball?

Uh....it's called extensive and time consuming research. There are all sorts of histories out there, family histories, business histories, etc., etc., etc. You might be reading some of this stuff looking for one thing and discover something that you weren't even looking for, maybe the subtle drop of a name or a past associate, the name of a ship, etc., etc., etc. The answers we find are only limited by the questions we allow yourself to ask, you know this. So if everyone continues to look at only the immediate local then they eventually they are only left with same old questions and answers. How long can this go on before folks realize that the answers, if they exist, don't reside in the same old questions and down the same old avenues?

 

[ECS]

... the Thomas J. Beale of Richmond is a direct descendant of the Thomas Beale that took part in the Mexican rebel struggle for Independence. Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, while a freeman of color was not black, but rather he had Mexican blood, his mother most likely being Dolores de Soto Beales, wife of John Charles Beale, actually Beales, who acquired a land grant next to the grant of Steven F. Austin.

In 1886 John T. Beale and his wife traveled from Texas to visit John's father, Thomas J. Beale of Richmond. This was the critical link that everyone was missing...
And now you know the true nature and source behind the Beale pamphlet...

Well you stated that Dolores de Soto Beales was the mother of Thomas J Beale who was born 1823 in Richmond as a freeman of color, the same Thomas J Beale who became Jackson Ward Alderman in 1884.
Now how can Delores de Soto Beales be the mother of Alderman Beale if neither she nor her husband were ever in Richmond or Virginia.
It appears, my friend, that have become lost force fitting facts in your own flawed pet theory- known as the "Brad Andrews Syndrome".

 

[ECS]

Uh....it's called extensive and time consuming research. There are all sorts of histories out there, family histories, business histories, etc., etc., etc. You might be reading some of this stuff looking for one thing and discover something that you weren't even looking for, maybe the subtle drop of a name or a past associate, the name of a ship, etc., etc., etc. The answers we find are only limited by the questions we allow yourself to ask, you know this. So if everyone continues to look at only the immediate local then they eventually they are only left with same old questions and answers. How long can this go on before folks realize that the answers, if they exist, don't reside in the same old questions and down the same old avenues?

If that fails, one can always force fit and create connections to make a theory believable to the unwary reader.

 

[franklin]

Uh....it's called extensive and time consuming research. There are all sorts of histories out there, family histories, business histories, etc., etc., etc. You might be reading some of this stuff looking for one thing and discover something that you weren't even looking for, maybe the subtle drop of a name or a past associate, the name of a ship, etc., etc., etc. The answers we find are only limited by the questions we allow yourself to ask, you know this. So if everyone continues to look at only the immediate local then they eventually they are only left with same old questions and answers. How long can this go on before folks realize that the answers, if they exist, don't reside in the same old questions and down the same old avenues?

If the answers lie outside of this immediate area that is fine and dandy but if you do not make a connection to this local area then none of your research is worth diddly squat.

 

[ECS]

If the answers lie outside of this immediate area that is fine and dandy but if you do not make a connection to this local area then none of your research is worth diddly squat.

It seems that Bigscoop has gone so far afield trying to create a story behind the Beale story in the 1885 Beale Papers that he forgot that it was about "authentic statements" concerning Bedford county Virginia and was printed, published, advertised , and sold ONLY in Lynchburg, Virginia.
It is doubtful that he has anything that can definitely connect his wild romp through the history of Galveston, New Orleans, Texas, the slave trade, Lafitte and even the good Jackson Ward Alderman to Ward and his copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers.
The Beale story in the dime novel job pamphlet is either true as written, or a complete work of fiction, and with all his story behind the story of unrelated histories, he is in tacit agreement that the 1885 Beale Papers was and is a work of fiction.

 

[bigscoop]

If the answers lie outside of this immediate area that is fine and dandy but if you do not make a connection to this local area then none of your research is worth diddly squat.

All I can tell you to do is to review everything I've posted thus far....there is more, and in fact, I'm betting you've already been dancing all around it and just not considered it yet. But it will eventually come to you......I'm sure of that. I just like watching ECS paddling around he pond. "I can't believe he hasn't dove deeper into one aspect of it already."

 

[ECS]

All I can tell you to do is to review everything I've posted thus far....there is more...

Why not tell us all how this unrelated to the presented Beale story history that you keep bringing forth has to do with Ward copyrighting and publishing the 1885 Beale Papers and involving his cousin, his cousins boss, and a businessman friend in the printing and marketing of, what you now claim, is just a work of fiction?
You keep avoiding making this connection as proof of this current theory.
Just a jumble of random events that lead absolutely nowhere, like the claim that Dolores de Soto Beales was the mother of Richmond born Jackson Ward Alderman Thomas J Beale, when she, and her second husband, Dr John Charles Beales were never in Richmond or Virginia.
Are you following in the footsteps of another poster who misrepresent facts to support his claims?
Its time to bring your theory home to Lynchburg where it all began with an application for copyright on a borrowed ADAMS & PAYNES letterhead.
Is it because there is no connection?

 

[bigscoop]

Just a jumble of random events that lead absolutely nowhere, like the claim that Dolores de Soto Beales was the mother of Richmond born Jackson Ward Alderman Thomas J Beale, when she, and her second husband, Dr John Charles Beales were never in Richmond or Virginia.

...Dude, I mean this is your area of expertise, not mine, which is why I can't believe you've not dove into it for yourself. Is it possible for John Beale, the Richmond son, to have two biological fathers? You need to go straighten all of this mess out for yourself, as others have.

Also, many researchers and genealogical folks have concluded that Thomas J. Beale of Richmond died in 1884, but if this is true then how did his son visit him in Richmond in 1886? Dive into it, go see for yourself where it all ends up.

Something else YOU need to investigate for yourself, one of the Beale grants bordered the Austin grant, grants that were in pursuit as early as 1824. Now how is it possible that all of this land mass had already been explored and chosen by 1824? Obviously it couldn't have been unless Beale/Beales had been working with the Mexican juntas for quite some time prior to 1824. In fact, letters exist from Henry Clay touching on this very subject as early as 1827. Point is, Beale/Beales had to be involved in these affairs at least as early as the days of the Adams Onis Treaty, if not before.

 

[ECS]

None of any of this presented history matters if you can not connect it to Ward and those in Lynchburg involved with the 1885 Beale Papers, which you refuse to answer or are unable because there exists no "CONNEXION" as all your previous theories.
There is the fictional Thomas J Beale character of Ward's copyrighted dime novel, and all these other Beales that you continue to force fit your current theory.
Lafitte, Adams-Onis, pirates, Galveston, Mexican revolution, Girard's opium trade, New Orleans, Patterson's good ship TORPEDO, the slave trade, Dolores de Soto Beales giving birth in Richmond to a future Jackson Ward Alderman when she was never in Richmond or Virginia, Bonapartists in Bedford county, Laflin's forged memoirs, John Wilkes Booth, Henry Clay, Stephen Austin, and on and on with totally unrelated historical "facts" in a never ending attempt to find the story behind the story in the 1885 Beale Papers.
On another thread you stated that there never was a treasure, or when will you come to the realization that Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet, was nothing more than a Lynchburg localized dime novel with parlor entertainment ciphers?
So far the only thing blowing here, is blowing in the wind, my friend, and it is blowing hot air.

 

[ECS]

Yes Rick and Dave, you are both correct, the Thomas J. Beale of Richmond is a direct descendant of the Thomas Beale that took part in the Mexican rebel struggle for Independence. Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, while a freeman of color was not black, but rather he had Mexican blood, his mother most likely being Dolores de Soto Beales, wife of John Charles Beale, actually Beales, who acquired a land grant next to the grant of Steven F. Austin.

In 1886 John T. Beale and his wife traveled from Texas to visit John's father, Thomas J. Beale of Richmond. This was the critical link that everyone was missing.

Now back to John Charles Beale/Beales, and his wife Dolores de Soto Beale/Beales...What all of this establishes, as you have now discovered, is that the Beales were directly tied to the liberation efforts of the Mexican rebels, which in turn directly ties them to the activities at Galveston Island and Bolivar Point, which also directly ties them “with intimate interest and investment” in the outcome of the Adams Onis Treaty affairs, which is why the Thomas Beale deposit dates fall in perfect chronological order to both the signing and ratification dates of that treaty...

These links should provide information that the connections to Jackson Ward Alderman Thomas J Beale and inferences to Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers are purely the creation of the above poster.
Beales Colony Villa Dolores on the Rio Grande
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v036/v036p358.pdf

 

[bigscoop]

These links should provide information that the connections to Jackson Ward Alderman Thomas J Beale and inferences to Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers are purely the creation of the above poster.
Beales Colony Villa Dolores on the Rio Grande
http://digital.library.okstate.edu/Chronicles/v036/v036p358.pdf

....man, this is comical as heck. I'm still not sure why you think the land grants themselves would be directly connected to the Beale narration? What you want to research is everything relating to these Beales, their family, their business affairs, etc., "before the land grants." You seem to be the only one suffering from this case of tunnel vision you've settled upon. "Quit looking through that tiny window of yours."

 

[ECS]

Maybe you have read the information in the links.

 

[bigscoop]

Maybe you have read the information in the links.

No, I've gone way beyond that basic stuff. I'm just letting you show everyone how little you actually know about what you're trying argue. For years you guys have been spewing all sorts of ridiculous rhetoric in regards to Spain's iron fist control of the southwest, obviously oblivious to "the many" Americans who were pursuing business in the region even way before the ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty. Also, the history of American insurgents into the region also pre-dates the Adams Onis Treaty by many years, as does Mexican and American collusion in these events, and even Spanish and American collusion as well. So here, just to establish my point "that you are way out of your league" here's just one example, one "you might" be "somewhat" familiar with, though at this point I doubt it?

After the Virginia lead business failed, Moses skipped out to avoid imprisonment and the consequences of debt, which was then customary in the U.S. for debtors under traditional English law (now being developed for U.S. federal and state codes), looked toward the rich lead deposits in Missouri, then a part of upper Spanish Louisiana.[SUP][4][/SUP] In December 1797, Austin and a companion traveled to investigate the Spanish mines. In 1798, the Spanish colonial government granted to Moses one league (4,428 acres). In return he swore allegiance to the Spanish Crown and stated he would settle some families in Missouri. Stephen remained behind to salvage the Virginia business, creating a rift between the two brothers that would last for much of the rest of their lives. The state of Virginia seized much of the property Moses owned and broke up the various operations, which were later purchased from the state at great discounts by Thomas Jackson and his partners.

In 1803, Missouri came under the jurisdiction of the United States as part of the Louisiana Purchase. Austin became founder and principal stockholder in the Bank of St. Louis, but the bank failed in the Panic of 1819 causing him to lose his entire fortune. He again sought help from Spain. In 1820, Austin traveled to Presidio San Antonio de Bexar in Spanish Texas and presented a plan to colonize Texas with Anglo-Americans to Governor Antonio María Martínez. The Governor rejected Austin's plan due to the ongoing attacks on Texas by American filibusters. An old acquaintance, Felipe Enrique Neri, Baron de Bastrop, who was living in San Antonio at the time and well liked by the Spaniards, helped convince the governor to accept Austin's plan. In 1821, the governor asked Austin's friend, Erasmo Seguín, to give him the news that he had been awarded a land grant and permission to settle three hundred families in Texas. On Austin's return trip, he became ill and died in 1821, shortly after arriving back in Missouri. His son Stephen F. Austin carried out his colonization plan.


In 1885, the legality of Austin's Spanish property claims were settled posthumously by the Supreme Court in Bryan v. Kennett.

 

[ECS]

the Thomas J. Beale of Richmond is a direct descendant of the Thomas Beale that took part in the Mexican rebel struggle for Independence. Thomas J. Beale of Richmond, while a freeman of color was not black, but rather he had Mexican blood, his mother most likely being Dolores de Soto Beales, wife of John Charles Beale, actually Beales...

In 1886 John T. Beale and his wife traveled from Texas to visit John's father, Thomas J. Beale of Richmond. This was the critical link that everyone was missing...

Born 1823 in Richmond, Thomas J Beale who became Jackson Ward Alderman married Sophia Pemberton, October 1, 1851.
They had five children, John T (1852), Charles (1855), Edward(1857), Anne E (1858), and Sarah(1859).
While Thomas J Beale's parents are unknown, it is obvious that Dr John Charles Beales of England, later New York, married Dolores de Soto 1830 in Mexico and raised her daughter from a previous marriage.
Much of the Dr John Charles Beales information is in the links I provided above.
There is NO connection between the Alderman and the Dr and NO connection to Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers, this is why Bigscoop will not answer the question that has been brought forth many times.
NO CONNECTION.

 

[ECS]

None of any of this presented history matters if you can not connect it to Ward and those in Lynchburg involved with the 1885 Beale Papers, which you refuse to answer or are unable because there exists no "CONNEXION" as all your previous theories.
There is the fictional Thomas J Beale character of Ward's copyrighted dime novel, and all these other Beales that you continue to force fit your current theory.

Lafitte, Adams-Onis, pirates, Galveston, Mexican revolution, Girard's opium trade, New Orleans, Patterson's good ship TORPEDO, the slave trade, Dolores de Soto Beales giving birth in Richmond to a future Jackson Ward Alderman when she was never in Richmond or Virginia, Bonapartists in Bedford county, Laflin's forged memoirs, John Wilkes Booth, Henry Clay, Stephen Austin, and on and on with totally unrelated historical "facts" in a never ending attempt to find the story behind the story in the 1885 Beale Papers.

On another thread you stated that there never was a treasure, or when will you come to the realization that Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers job pamphlet, was nothing more than a Lynchburg localized dime novel with parlor entertainment ciphers?
So far the only thing blowing here, is blowing in the wind, my friend, and it is blowing hot air.

I agree , you have gone WAY beyond.
Still you continue to post unrelated "facts" , some proven misleading, and still NO CONNECTION, and you refuse to answer the very basic question posed.
Just another pile of misdirection to avoid the simple basic question posed.

 

[bigscoop]

Born 1823 in Richmond, Thomas J Beale who became Jackson Ward Alderman married Sophia Pemberton, October 1, 1851.
They had five children, John T (1852), Charles (1855), Edward(1857), Anne E (1858), and Sarah(1859).
While Thomas J Beale's parents are unknown, it is obvious that Dr John Charles Beales of England, later New York, married Dolores de Soto 1830 in Mexico and raised her daughter from a previous marriage.
Much of the Dr John Charles Beales information is in the links I provided above.
There is NO connection between the Alderman and the Dr and NO connection to Ward's copyrighted 1885 Beale Papers, this is why Bigscoop will not answer the question that has been brought forth many times.
NO CONNECTION.

I see you're still relying on some of those easily accessed "inaccurate" genealogical internet resources and other "basic" resources I referenced earlier in a different post. Glad others aren't!

Also, as is related to some of the other issues I recently posted and your desperate attempt to post only what you want to focus on through your tiny Virginia window, "Americans/Virginians were in collusion with both Spain and Mexico even way before the Adams Onis Treaty." Moses Austin, per example, was pursuing business with them as early as 1897, and then again in 1803, and 1820. Beale/Beals was no different. Also, there were many Virginians involved with similar schemes and also the many insurgent factions into Spanish territory, including those at Galveston Island/Point Bolivar. If nothing else, at least do your homework on Moses Austin so you'll have some understanding of some of this "very basic" and "easily accessed" history. Thus far all you've managed to do is to show how little you really know about the subject in which you are desperately attempting to pursue argument. "Step away from that tiny Lynchburg Virginia port hole and open the sliding glass door. It's ok to step outside."

 

[bigscoop]

I see you're still relying on some of those easily accessed "inaccurate" genealogical internet resources and other "basic" resources I referenced earlier in a different post. Glad others aren't!

Also, as is related to some of the other issues I recently posted and your desperate attempt to post only what you want to focus on through your tiny Virginia window, "Americans/Virginians were in collusion with both Spain and Mexico even way before the Adams Onis Treaty." Moses Austin, per example, was pursuing business with them as early as 1897, and then again in 1803, and 1820. Beale/Beals was no different. Also, there were many Virginians involved with similar schemes and also the many insurgent factions into Spanish territory, including those at Galveston Island/Point Bolivar. If nothing else, at least do your homework on Moses Austin so you'll have some understanding of some of this "very basic" and "easily accessed" history. Thus far all you've managed to do is to show how little you really know about the subject in which you are desperately attempting to pursue argument. "Step away from that tiny Lynchburg Virginia port hole and open the sliding glass door. It's ok to step outside."

Here, here's the "very basics" for you...it was very-very easy to find online....step away from that tiny Virginia port hole when you read it, recognize many of the dates and names and locations, etc. It's ok.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses_Austin

 

[franklin]

No, I've gone way beyond that basic stuff. I'm just letting you show everyone how little you actually know about what you're trying argue. For years you guys have been spewing all sorts of ridiculous rhetoric in regards to Spain's iron fist control of the southwest, obviously oblivious to "the many" Americans who were pursuing business in the region even way before the ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty. Also, the history of American insurgents into the region also pre-dates the Adams Onis Treaty by many years, as does Mexican and American collusion in these events, and even Spanish and American collusion as well. So here, just to establish my point "that you are way out of your league" here's just one example, one "you might" be "somewhat" familiar with, though at this point I doubt it?

After the Virginia lead business failed, Moses skipped out to avoid imprisonment and the consequences of debt, which was then customary in the U.S. for debtors under traditional English law (now being developed for U.S. federal and state codes), looked toward the rich lead deposits in Missouri, then a part of upper Spanish Louisiana.[SUP][4][/SUP] In December 1797, Austin and a companion traveled to investigate the Spanish mines. In 1798, the Spanish colonial government granted to Moses one league (4,428 acres). In return he swore allegiance to the Spanish Crown and stated he would settle some families in Missouri. Stephen remained behind to salvage the Virginia business, creating a rift between the two brothers that would last for much of the rest of their lives. The state of Virginia seized much of the property Moses owned and broke up the various operations, which were later purchased from the state at great discounts by Thomas Jackson and his partners.

In 1803, Missouri came under the jurisdiction of the United States as part of the Louisiana Purchase. Austin became founder and principal stockholder in the Bank of St. Louis, but the bank failed in the Panic of 1819 causing him to lose his entire fortune. He again sought help from Spain. In 1820, Austin traveled to Presidio San Antonio de Bexar in Spanish Texas and presented a plan to colonize Texas with Anglo-Americans to Governor Antonio María Martínez. The Governor rejected Austin's plan due to the ongoing attacks on Texas by American filibusters. An old acquaintance, Felipe Enrique Neri, Baron de Bastrop, who was living in San Antonio at the time and well liked by the Spaniards, helped convince the governor to accept Austin's plan. In 1821, the governor asked Austin's friend, Erasmo Seguín, to give him the news that he had been awarded a land grant and permission to settle three hundred families in Texas. On Austin's return trip, he became ill and died in 1821, shortly after arriving back in Missouri. His son Stephen F. Austin carried out his colonization plan.


In 1885, the legality of Austin's Spanish property claims were settled posthumously by the Supreme Court in Bryan v. Kennett.

What does this have to do with the Beale Treasure? So Austin went to Texas in 1821 and had land grants from the Spanish. It did not last long a year or two. Daniel Boone was also given land by the Spanish in Missouri as well as scores of other families such as the Cooper Family. Cooperstown ring a bell. Yes Spanish land grants were granted but most of the Anglo-Americans did not move in to Texas until the 1830's. Hardly proves anything connected to the Beale Treasure in Bedford County, Virginia or the locals that lived and printed the story in Campbell County, Virginia.