Blowing The Cast Iron Lids Off Of Beale

[bigscoop]

Nothing threatening nor is there any real substance for a rebuttal on this thread, Bigscoop, just the same old misinformation of real historical events combined in an attempt to prove a fictional story is really a true story that has nothing to do with the original presented story that is fiction but could be true because of certain words and dates used that happen to also be used in a forged diary that created several decades after the other story that may involve a Jackson Ward Alderman of a similar name.
Even you, Bigscoop, would not waste your time on a rebuttal on something this ridiculous.

Good lord man, find something, anything worth posting that is topic related or simply go post in a thread where you already have such information/knowledge to post. But don't let all of this keep eating away at you like it is.....it's not healthy.

 

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[bigscoop]

Here ECS, but don't let it get to you so much, let go the obvious frustrations....

Things start to become really obvious in 1815 when after receiving his pardon with aid of Jackson, Claiborne, Madison, Monroe, Rush, you start to see a very distinct change in the administration's attitude and relations with the privateers, this being most obvious in Claiborne and Patterson.


Remember those sixteen gold plates I referenced earlier, well these and other items of merchandise were basically a court agreed settlement between Laffite and Patterson, the same man who only months before dedicated everything he had at his disposal to rid the country of this terrible banditti. But now he is virtually agreeing to the return of a large sum of finance and other goods. Why?


Well, shortly after this unexpected turn in attitude Laffite traveled to Washington to hold several counsels, ironically Latour and Jackson were there as well. Also while in Washington Laffite visited with Onis and this is where all of the spy misinformation comes from, though it is true that the Laffite's did act as such, just not as folks wish to design it. In reality the Laffite's were doing what need to be done for what lied ahead.


When Laffite left Washington he had somehow managed arrangements for new ships and he had also managed to accept a mapping and surveying expedition with Latour in the Texas region and north, all of this being done under the veil that it was for Spain, not the Americans. The irony in this is that it was the Americans who would eventually profit from this expedition, the route of Long expedition, which Jackson later encouraged, and the location of Champ D'Asile already having been laid out before either ever arrived on the scene. And the real irony, it was all at Spain's expense, a country paying for its own demise both out of pocket and by their HUGE amount of losses at sea. By the time Onis figured all of this out it was too late.


So obvious was all of this in New Orleans, where the filibusters were already gathering, rumor abounded that both the Americans and the British had launched a plan to completely annihilate Spain's commerce in the Gulf, this then causing insurance companies in New Orleans to simply refuse to insure Spanish goods or their ships. So even before these foreseen forces planted themselves at Spain's front door it was already known what was about to happen and who was behind it. You see after the treaty of 1815 the Americans and the British started to work commercial prosperity and continuity, this all including that desirable route of passage to the Pacific through the shared Oregon territory, which is why “350 miles north of Santa Fe” is referenced in the Beale papers, this being that critical line of new border established in the Adams Onis Treaty.

And as for those new ships, and especially the one being built in Charleston, this can be traced back......."The First Bank of America", that very same bank where George Graham held important position as well. It's all but a done deal now....just some minor tidying up and a couple of loose ends that still need cleaned up. But don't let it get so deep under your skin.....just let the obvious frustration go. The fiction theory was a solid bet for a while....

PS: and by the way, had you taken the time to investigate all that Captain Porter information in regards to Laffite's alleged death, you'll discover that just about every knowledgeable historian agrees that the information is inaccurate. You see, I'm not the only one who has reserved the right to change their opinion based on the new information gained.

 

[ECS]

With all that , still NO mention of Thomas J Beale, or how any of that relates to the story in the Beale Papers.

 

[releventchair]

With all that , still NO mention of Thomas J Beale, or how any of that relates to the story in the Beale Papers.

Beale could have been an "Alan Smithee" ?

 

[ECS]

HA! The final ending of the Beale Expedition "story" is VIRGINIA! Who cares but YOU about the "in between junk"... KEEP IT SIMPLE!

Remember, Bigscoop states its complicated and complex and involves everything but Virginia.

 

[bigscoop]

With all that , still NO mention of Thomas J Beale, or how any of that relates to the story in the Beale Papers.

Not an accurate statement at all. "Many people" are now realizing the connections because they took it upon themselves to start looking into things for themselves. I can't make you or urge you to do that, obviously.

By the way, glad I'm not still in New Smyrna..........though I'm sure the beach detecting is going to be spectacular after the storm passes.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Beale could have been an "Alan Smithee" ?

Eh...?

 

[releventchair]

Eh...?

A nom de guarre.

In holly wood , when a director wants to avoid recognition for a film they don't like, Alan Smithee is just one of the names used. A popular one numbers wise though.
Actors too have changed names.

 

[franklin]

A nom de guarre.

In holly wood , when a director wants to avoid recognition for a film they don't like, Alan Smithee is just one of the names used. A popular one numbers wise though.
Actors too have changed names.

We like straight forward answers. Answers with association of others is not good. Why not just call a dude a dude.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's what I have yet to figure out......and still need to dive into;

The reference of "four miles from Bufords?" My thinking is that this is perhaps in reference to "someone" rather then "someplace." Perhaps someone intimate to the arrangement, like say a lawyer or trustee or someone who had been associated with the First Bank back in the day?

The other thing I still need to do is to dive into those bank records if they still exist, perhaps large deposits showing up somewhere in those records on, or close to, the dates of deposit in the Beale narration? But if this was "shell money" then it most likely would have been deposited in small portions at a time and perhaps even scattered over several accounts so even if it was deposited it might never show up in any noticeable or traceable fashion. But it might still be worth the effort?

 

[ECS]

...

The reference of "four miles from Bufords?" My thinking is that this is perhaps in reference to "someone" rather then "someplace." Perhaps someone intimate to the arrangement, like say a lawyer or trustee or someone who had been associated with the First Bank back in the day? ...

Haven't you rewritten the Beale fiction with enough new fiction already?

 

[releventchair]

We like straight forward answers. Answers with association of others is not good. Why not just call a dude a dude.

Not sure what you mean...if I call the author of the Beale papers Dude..or a main character Dude....research will not get far.
Authors throughout history have gone by other names ,depending on the author.
Took years before the real author of original Nancy Drew series came to light...for a reason that was not to avoid recognition by the author ,but that of the claimed author demanding such , is one instance.

Point being , aliases are not novel. Some are better known than the persons real name. Persona's can go right along with them, depending on the affair.
Beale was a not uncommon name. Believable at any time of the era , and in the right region(s) an association with the name.

 

[bigscoop]

The workings at Galveston Island, while politically questionable, were actually quite brilliant and unique to the times. The operations at island had actually been in place before the Laffite's took ot over, but this prior operation had been directly associated with the Mexican rebels and the several insurgent factions threatening Spain's control over the region. However, when the Laffite's took this over they set a course of neutrality from all of this, their only goal to reap profits from all of those various ventures. So in understanding Galveston Island and its operations one merely needs to wrap their heads around the financial proceedings that took place there. In short here's how it was all working;


Think of Galveston Island as being a critical service center, that place where you could clear your goods, sell your goods, arrange shipments and deliveries, etc., etc., etc., whatever services privateers and rebels and insurgent factions might require, both commercially and legally if only under the questionable disguise of a functioning form of “neutral government.” all of these services being provided at various fees or percentages of sells. Under this arrangement men from as far away as New York, for instance, could invest in questionable maritime enterprises with some assurance that they could function quite easily on the very fringes of the law as long as they didn't get too blatant with their business and even then, as often happened, the authorities would turn a blind eye or only administer slaps on the hand. And what a better place or time to setup this operation as the only true threat was even supporting the additional pressure this enterprise was applying to Spain, this being the Untied States.


And speaking of the United States and Galveston Island, the actual claim on this island during this period seems to a curious situation in itself, as some records indicate that at the time the island was under claim of the United States, which “all of the prior” in this thread even that more solid, and, it also explains why Spain/Onis was so dependent on the American's taking action against the activities on the island VS the risk of starting a war if they attempted to do so themselves. And of course, this then also only adds to the credibility of the prior Graham and Kearny involvement I've referenced.


In short the Galveston Island operation was a HUGE cash cow, the “island” keeping a healthy percentage of everything that entered this port, which on many days saw several new shipments of cargo each day, this including everything from general merchandise, to slaves, to varying amounts of silver and gold plate and bars and coin, etc., this even including jewelry items as well. Without a doubt the biggest customers were merchants who had invested in ships, and sometimes even fleets of their own privateering vessels. So profitable were these ventures that when one of these ships were lost, for whatever reason, these investors simply purchased and outfitted another. And the biggest surprise of all, even US war ships that were owned and/or under the direct command of Patterson himself were taking full advantage of all of these activities, these warships even frequently acting as escort so several of these illegal cargos and their rebel and insurgent passengers could arrive at their destinations unmolested. Pretty hard to believe, I know, but all 100% true. But it's the Galveston money that were mainly interested in so let's take a look into this.


Capital, the business at Galveston Island had to maintain accessible capital and in fact we now know that it did, and quite a lot of it based on how their financial and business platform functioned. You see, many ship captains, investors, merchants, insurgents, rebels, etc., the very nature of their business required cash payments VS notes that were traceable and provided a direct avenue to them. So depending on the type of transaction, and some of them frequently being quite large, there simply had to be a sizable treasury on the island. Sure, a variety of notes were also used but there is absolutely no doubt that many of the known transactions were done in cash and even demanded that they be done in cash. Just how large of a treasury was on the island is uncertain but when one makes study of the known transactions that took place on the island and the frequency in which these same type of transactions occurred it is difficult to image anything less then $100'000 being kept on hand and this is only the minimal amount, this figure swelling much larger during heights in the island business. And one also has to consider Bolivar point, a separate entity with its own required treasury, so when one looks at both enterprises there simply had to be “a lot” of treasury on hand at all times. No doubt this is why George Graham made his secret mission to Galveston Island once the terms of the new treaty were close at hand.

 

[franklin]

Not sure what you mean...if I call the author of the Beale papers Dude..or a main character Dude....research will not get far.
Authors throughout history have gone by other names ,depending on the author.
Took years before the real author of original Nancy Drew series came to light...for a reason that was not to avoid recognition by the author ,but that of the claimed author demanding such , is one instance.

Point being , aliases are not novel. Some are better known than the persons real name. Persona's can go right along with them, depending on the affair.
Beale was a not uncommon name. Believable at any time of the era , and in the right region(s) an association with the name.

Not sure what you are talking about either. Alias is not what we are even talking about. You post things way out there in left field and you want to get us to figure out what you are talking about======posting about Hollywood when we are talking about the Beale Treasure. That is what I am talking about.

 

[bigscoop]

Haven't you rewritten the Beale fiction with enough new fiction already?

Now, I'm betting that is YOUR own opinion. Good job! Whoohoo.....
But unfortunately for you, most of what I've posted is well documented, though I fully understand why you don't know that.

 

[bigscoop]

Part of the problem with tracking more of this down is the circumstance that so many of these involved investors, merchants, privateers, etc., etc., (that is a matter of court proceedings and records, etc.,) used a variety of aliases for both their own identities and business affairs, this really becoming obvious as the courts and customs officials attempted to sort out many of the claims and suits being addressed in the courts. The involved ships generally were sailing under new names and under false papers, their actual owners often left to the guessing, the same goes for a great deal of the evidence such as the various cargoes that were entered as evidence, etc. This is just one of the reasons why the courts and custom officials were so powerless in trying to defend and uphold many of the laws that were being violated to the point of blatant and outright corruptions they couldn't even pursue. Unfortunately, as was the purpose for all of these deceptions, it makes these trails impossible to follow. One official even commented something to the order of, "It is so rampant and abused that when a good citizen's name never appears in the courts then he should likely be considered a suspect."

 

[releventchair]

Not sure what you are talking about either. Alias is not what we are even talking about. You post things way out there in left field and you want to get us to figure out what you are talking about======posting about Hollywood when we are talking about the Beale Treasure. That is what I am talking about.

Beale papers, Hart papers, Lafitte memoirs ,ect..
When similarities occur in enough writings by different authors I'm in left field when suggesting an author can be hard to finger due to the actual authors cartouche possibly not being on them?
Alrighty then. I have left field covered I guess.

If you have the confirming documentation of who wrote what , feel free to share.

Have a good day either way.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

We already know the authors of 2 of 'em...

 

[bigscoop]

We already know the authors of 2 of 'em...

Do we? I can reference "numerous" biographies and such that were only "penned" by those hired to do so. I can also say this same thing about many-many documents and letters, etc., that were only "penned" by the secretaries and such employed to conduct such task. Just saying.....per example, Laffite, for instance, seldom wrote his own letters and such because his command over the English language wasn't sufficient, this all being well documented. Which sort of makes you wonder why anyone would resort to hand writing analysis in an effort to prove or disprove any of his alleged writings. Even those that were originally penned/scribed in French were often translated into English by someone else. In fact, Laffite seldom penned any of his own important communications because his handwriting wasn't all that good. Again, all documented facts. So in essence, even those documents that are said have been from Laffite, there is no way to be 100% certain that any of them were penned in his own hand. Just another cold hard fact. It's with this knowledge that you have seen me post, "I don't care who actually wrote things, I only care as to the accuracy within."

 

[releventchair]

We already know the authors of 2 of 'em...

Confirmed how?
And unlike some...( no offence) I want to see others of their works.
Who wrote the Beale papers, and what other works by the same?
Even an opus had a prior work(s). Some others had works that followed , vs a one shot wonder.
Well written pieces usually have an experienced background in regards to author ability.
Match a couple thought to have been different authors and I'm delighted.