Beale Poll....Fact or Fiction?

[Kentucky Kache]

http://bealetreasurestory.com/id11.html

2) Beale's letter of January 4th, 1822, uses the words "stampeding" and "improvised." These words were not in common usage in 1822. According to Nickell ("Discovered the Secret of Beale's Treasure"), the earliest known printed source for "improvised" was 1837. The earliest printed source for "stampede" appears to be 1844, see Kendall's Santa Fé Expedition, vol. 1, p. 96.

Response: The words "stampeding" and "improvised" could have been added to Beale's letter of January 4th, 1822, during a revision of the text performed sometime after these words first appeared in print. See BTS I, p. 235.

Here's something that occurs to me. If we can accept that the earliest known printed sources for these words were later than the Beale story, then what would keep us from questioning the authenticity of the documents where they were later used? Why do we believe the 1837 and 1844 documents which use words never used before? I mean, if it's possible to do that, then we can't question the Beale story for doing it, right? Who's to say who used these words first? Too much time has elapsed for us to really know, I think.

While I do question the Beale treasure being real, I'll never take serious anything coming from those without the ability to believe anything they don't read out of text books.

Great point! And I agree. Give me a minute and I'd like to add to this "on target " statement. Perhaps, hopefully explain why it appears that I'm being contra at times.

I can understand your views. I pretty much feel the same way you do about the treasure, I just can't stand skeptics, like the ones on the above site.

 

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[bigscoop]

I neither believe or disbelieve the story. There are facts that both support it's possibility and the possibility of it being an entire hoax or work of fiction. I try to maintain an open mind to all possibilities as long as there is either conclusive or documented facts to support the evidence presented. This is why it sometimes appears that I'm in support of a hoax or work of fiction while other times it appears that I am supporting evidence of the opposite. What I try to do is to support whatever can be proven and toss to the side those things that cannot be proven until they can be proven one way or the other. I'll explore an entertain most any idea to the point that it either leads somewhere or goes nowhere at all.

My personal feelings in regards to what KK has said is this;
What is happening to the Beale story is the same thing happens, and has happened, to every other treasure legend that has ever been out there, "once the novelist and writers get hold of it it soon becomes hard to distinguish the facts from all the fiction." It happens nearly everytime, too much printed information that has either been built upon or indulged upon with no, or very little, fact or true evidence to support much of the information they contain. So I agree with KK in the sense that a lot of what has been written shouldn't be trusted and that you have to maintain an open mind (not an illogical mind) and seek answers beyond what has often been written.

OK, now you guys can throw stones at me!

 

[Kentucky Kache]

I neither believe or disbelieve the story. There are facts that both support it's possibility and the possibility of it being an entire hoax or work of fiction. I try to maintain an open mind to all possibilities as long as there is either conclusive or documented facts to support the evidence presented. This is why it sometimes appears that I'm in support of a hoax or work of fiction while other times it appears that I am supporting evidence of the opposite. What I try to do is to support whatever can be proven and toss to the side those things that cannot be proven until they can be proven one way or the other. I'll explore an entertain most any idea to the point that it either leads somewhere or goes nowhere at all.

My personal feelings in regards to what KK has said is this;
What is happening to the Beale story is the same thing happens, and has happened, to every other treasure legend that has ever been out there, "once the novelist and writers get hold of it it soon becomes hard to distinguish the facts from all the fiction." It happens nearly everytime, too much printed information that has either been built upon or indulged upon with no, or very little, fact or true evidence to support much of the information they contain. So I agree with KK in the sense that a lot of what has been written shouldn't be trusted and that you have to maintain an open mind (not an illogical mind) and seek answers beyond what has often been written.

OK, now you guys can throw stones at me!

Well said.

 

[bigscoop]

For discussion purposes, let’s explore the information provided to us in the pamphlet, and with the foregone conclusion that the author is trying to tell us a true tale, weather it be first hand or second hand.

“If this was the case”, that the author was trying to tell us of a true event without exposing his true identity, then just about everything we would have needed to know to enable us to figure it all out would have most likely been included in this pamphlet, "if" this was his purpose. Agreed?

 

[Kentucky Kache]

For discussion purposes, let’s explore the information provided to us in the pamphlet, and with the foregone conclusion that the author is trying to tell us a true tale, weather it be first hand or second hand.

“If this was the case”, that the author was trying to tell us of a true event without exposing his true identity, then just about everything we would have needed to know to enable us to figure it all out would have most likely been included in this pamphlet, "if" this was his purpose. Agreed?

But he hadn't figured it all out himself, had he?

 

[bigscoop]

For discussion purposes, let’s explore the information provided to us in the pamphlet, and with the foregone conclusion that the author is trying to tell us a true tale, weather it be first hand or second hand.

“If this was the case”, that the author was trying to tell us of a true event without exposing his true identity, then just about everything we would have needed to know to enable us to figure it all out would have most likely been included in this pamphlet, "if" this was his purpose. Agreed?

But he hadn't figured it all out himself, had he?

True, that's why I included the "first hand" or "second hand" to try to cover both possibilities/means of a truth being told. Maybe he did know the truth, maybe he hadn't figured it all out? But either way he would have included most everything he could think of to enable us to possibly figure it out. (I didn't explain that very well, did I?)

 

[Kentucky Kache]

For discussion purposes, let’s explore the information provided to us in the pamphlet, and with the foregone conclusion that the author is trying to tell us a true tale, weather it be first hand or second hand.

“If this was the case”, that the author was trying to tell us of a true event without exposing his true identity, then just about everything we would have needed to know to enable us to figure it all out would have most likely been included in this pamphlet, "if" this was his purpose. Agreed?

But he hadn't figured it all out himself, had he?

True, that's why I included the "first hand" or "second hand" to try to cover both possibilities/means of a truth being told. Maybe he did know the truth, maybe he hadn't figured it all out? But either way he would have included most everything he could think of to enable us to possibly figure it out. (I didn't explain that very well, did I?)

Yeah, I would say he would have tried to explain it the best he could.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

MY response is this... you guys are NOT from this area, where the "events" allegedly occurred; THUS... being "stuck" in the BEALE PAPERS "box". Being a "local" DOES have GREATER benefits in that "we" can go outside the BP "box", and review the HART PAPERS, for instance. There is SUBSEQUENT info that can be reviewed, histories, legends, etc for Research & Investigation; that requires MORE than a "quickie" visit to Bedford County/Lynchburg. VIRGINIA area. KK, tell us MORE about YOUR research; bs, tell us MORE about YOUR "visits" to this area in VIRGINIA. TY!

 

[bigscoop]

MY response is this... you guys are NOT from this area, where the "events" allegedly occurred; THUS... being "stuck" in the BEALE PAPERS "box". Being a "local" DOES have GREATER benefits in that "we" can go outside the BP "box", and review the HART PAPERS, for instance. There is SUBSEQUENT info that can be reviewed, histories, legends, etc for Research & Investigation; that requires MORE than a "quickie" visit to Bedford County/Lynchburg. VIRGINIA area. KK, tell us MORE about YOUR research; bs, tell us MORE about YOUR "visits" to this area in VIRGINIA. TY!

Reb, the only response I can even think to offer you on this is, "Where's the solutions?" There is nothing left in Bedford county to explore that hasn't already been turned over so many times all the edging is growing worn and chipped. By your own words you local guys have all the in's and secrets and yet.....despite all your best efforts, there's still, "nothing conclusive." I'm not sure I'd boast too much about that.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

HA! Just tell US about YOUR trips up here; SOLUTIONS? LOL! Meaning finding the GOLD, etc?

 

[bigscoop]

Heaven forbid an outsider ever figures it all out, on that day all of Bedford County will recede from the Union and gunshots will be fired!

 

[Rebel - KGC]

HA! Such a SMART A$$! Tell us that YOU have NEVER been to Bedford County, VIRGINIA, then!

 

[bigscoop]

HA! Such a SMART A$$! Tell us that YOU have NEVER been to Bedford County, VIRGINIA, then!

I was there in 2005 & 2006. Both times I visited the same half-dozen places of interest. I drove a white 2003 Astro cargo van with and Indiana plate. Maybe, if you stop and think about it, you might recall seeing me there?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

2005/2006? Naw... wasn't out ''in the field", then. WHERE all did YOU look? FYI, I am focussing on the Greater Lynchburg, VIRGINIA area, including the mountains/James River of NORTH EAST Bedford County, VIRGINIA. YOU may have taken the BEALE PAPERS, literally... finding nothing & concluding it is all a HOAX! AH WELL!

 

[bigscoop]

2005/2006? Naw... wasn't out ''in the field", then. WHERE all did YOU look? FYI, I am focussing on the Greater Lynchburg, VIRGINIA area, including the mountains/James River of NORTH EAST Bedford County, VIRGINIA. YOU may have taken the BEALE PAPERS, literally... finding nothing & concluding it is all a HOAX! AH WELL!

Let's just say that I think the author was a tattletale or sorts. I think he already knew the truth behind the story before he ever penned it. The people he included in the story were not chosen at random and the details he included in the story were likewise included for a reason. The dates are also accurate. The spelling of the name Beale is also accurate. The description and physical details about TJB are also accurate.

All of this will be directly or indirectly confirmed in C1, which is actually a secured cipher, meaning that no one person will be able to decode it by themselves. Now you ask; How would this be possible? Here's how it was done:

Each of Beale's associates (those names in C3) had what is called a nomenclature list in their presence, and these list were all identical. By their design these list contained entire words, names, etc., with each of them being assigned a, "four digit code". This was very common practice during the era, in fact it was often used during the civil war to further protect messages that were being sent back and forth. The purpose of these list was to insure that even if the key document to a cipher was discovered the entire coded message could not be fully understood without the aid of the appropriate nomenclature list. C1 1 contains 19 of these critical four digit codes.

Here's how it worked in regards to the Beale story;
Morriss was given the iron box containing the ciphers, Beale's associates each had a nomenclature key, but Morriss didn't know who Beale's associates were and they didn't know Morriss had the ciphers. In the event that someone with the key would have showed up at Morriss place of residence and gained control of the ciphers, they still could not have decoded C1 entirely without seeking the aid of a nomenclature list belonging to one of the men in C3, thus insuring that members of the party would have been alerted to the threat. The opposite was also true in that none of the men on C3 would have been able to locate the vault without the aid of Morriss and the ciphers, who they didn't even know existed. This is why it was perfectly safe to leave the ciphers in the iron box with Morriss, because by themselves the location of the vault still couldn't be identified. It's actually a brilliant arrangement, and one that could not have been pulled off by thirty locals. Hence, Beale's associates were not from Bedford County.

 

[bigscoop]

2005/2006? Naw... wasn't out ''in the field", then. WHERE all did YOU look? FYI, I am focussing on the Greater Lynchburg, VIRGINIA area, including the mountains/James River of NORTH EAST Bedford County, VIRGINIA. YOU may have taken the BEALE PAPERS, literally... finding nothing & concluding it is all a HOAX! AH WELL!

Let's just say that I think the author was a tattletale or sorts. I think he already knew the truth behind the story before he ever penned it. The people he included in the story were not chosen at random and the details he included in the story were likewise included for a reason. The dates are also accurate. The spelling of the name Beale is also accurate. The description and physical details about TJB are also accurate.

All of this will be directly or indirectly confirmed in C1, which is actually a secured cipher, meaning that no one person will be able to decode it by themselves. Now you ask; How would this be possible? Here's how it was done:

Each of Beale's associates (those names in C3) had what is called a nomenclature list in their presence, and these list were all identical. By their design these list contained entire words, names, etc., with each of them being assigned a, "four digit code". This was very common practice during the era, in fact it was often used during the civil war to further protect messages that were being sent back and forth. The purpose of these list was to insure that even if the key document to a cipher was discovered the entire coded message could not be fully understood without the aid of the appropriate nomenclature list. C1 1 contains 19 of these critical four digit codes.

Here's how it worked in regards to the Beale story;
Morriss was given the iron box containing the ciphers, Beale's associates each had a nomenclature key, but Morriss didn't know who Beale's associates were and they didn't know Morriss had the ciphers. In the event that someone with the key would have showed up at Morriss place of residence and gained control of the ciphers, they still could not have decoded C1 entirely without seeking the aid of a nomenclature list belonging to one of the men in C3, thus insuring that members of the party would have been alerted to the threat. The opposite was also true in that none of the men on C3 would have been able to locate the vault without the aid of Morriss and the ciphers, who they didn't even know existed. This is why it was perfectly safe to leave the ciphers in the iron box with Morriss, because by themselves the location of the vault still couldn't be identified. It's actually a brilliant arrangement, and one that could not have been pulled off by thirty locals. Hence, Beale's associates were not from Bedford County.

What about the ten men that helped TJB bury the treasure? They would not where the treasure was buried either according to you? Poppycock

I don't recall anyone saying, "ten men helped TJB bury the treasure?" I do, however, recall something being said about ten names/friends/associates. But you're the writer so I'm sure you're haven't speculated or indulged on the facts so I'll take your word for it that they also helped him bury the/a treasure. Thank you for setting me straight.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

According to the story, all the men in the party had agreed on the selection of Morris to be the keeper of the box. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be true.

 

[bigscoop]

According to the story, all the men in the party had agreed on the selection of Morris to be the keeper of the box. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be true.

I wrestled with this same issue for quite a while, but you have to keep reading the letter as there is/was a difference in his use of the words "parties", "friends", "associates", etc. As you keep reading the letter you learn that it was he and "his friends who set upon forming a party of no less then thirty men...." and these "other men" in turn had to, "sign the conditions" set forth before they were accepted as members to, "the over all party". Also remember, Beale states in this letter that Morriss did not know or had never seen any of the, "parties", so likewise they did not know and had never seen Morriss. The next paragraph in this letter is also extrememly important, especially the details it contains.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

According to the story, all the men in the party had agreed on the selection of Morris to be the keeper of the box. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be true.

I wrestled with this same issue for quite a while, but you have to keep reading the letter as there is/was a difference in his use of the words "parties", "friends", "associates", etc. As you keep reading the letter you learn that it was he and "his friends who set upon forming a party of no less then thirty men...." and these "other men" in turn had to, "sign the conditions" set forth before they were accepted as members to, "the over all party". Also remember, Beale states in this letter that Morriss did not know or had never seen any of the, "parties", so likewise they did not know and had never seen Morriss. The next paragraph in this letter is also extrememly important, especially the details it contains.

Could be.

 

[Kentucky Kache]

According to the story, all the men in the party had agreed on the selection of Morris to be the keeper of the box. Of course that doesn't mean it has to be true.

I wrestled with this same issue for quite a while, but you have to keep reading the letter as there is/was a difference in his use of the words "parties", "friends", "associates", etc. As you keep reading the letter you learn that it was he and "his friends who set upon forming a party of no less then thirty men...." and these "other men" in turn had to, "sign the conditions" set forth before they were accepted as members to, "the over all party". Also remember, Beale states in this letter that Morriss did not know or had never seen any of the, "parties", so likewise they did not know and had never seen Morriss. The next paragraph in this letter is also extrememly important, especially the details it contains.

Are you referring to Beale saying the potential members had to be financially able to encounter the expense?