Basic signs and symbols you have found

[Shortstack]

Thom, in this photo, it looks like you're calling for the escalator to be brought in. LOL

There are a lot of things and possibilities going on in this area. In this 2nd pix, is that an owl up high (square white box) or a geo-artifact? And what is the significance of the sheep head with a crown on the back (lower white box) This is on the side of the turtle / frog head. In the "old days" some folks didn't think sheep, cattle, and horses would exist good together. I'm wondering if the Spanish brought live sheep with them as a self-replicating food supply and if this sheep head is looking at the water hole to be used by the sheep (royal animal) ONLY? Maybe a natural basin that catches water and wouldn't "contaminate" the water hole used by their horses and food cattle. Just wondering.

 

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[Old Dog]

My partner hollered at me and I waved.
He took the picture.
I found a horse trail across the face of the cliff about 4-6 feet wide.
It was an easy walk little or no risk at all.

Here is another that was zoomed from the canyon floor of me perching. (that what my wife called it)
Look at the size of these squares, they were knocked loose with tools. More ancient stuff.
These are on the same ledge.

 

[Shortstack]

Thom,
I'm glad you had an interstate highway to walk up there. Any ideas what those large square sections were used for? Trap doors or vault doors? Maybe use to build up the basis of large monument sculptures? That humongous owl up high must have been a trail symbol to be seen a long ways off. It's pretty BIG.

Thomas,
I'm posting your latest photo again with different marks. The big thing is the really LARGE crow or raven beaks. You mentioned a large "7". Could that large "L" shape on the left be an upside down "7" or a chair / resting place? That circle on the lower left has several things in it; one of the things is a dong face that looks a lot like Old Dog's avatar. I circled what looks like modern graffiti in cursive writing up on the side of the large fish profile. The circle on the far right is marking some symbols on the side of the fish boulder. What do ya think of all of these new marks? I reverted to old habits with the yellow circles, but.................

 

[Old Dog]

I would really like to see what you are calling an owl.

Here is a marked picture of what drew me up here in the first place.
Check out the perfect square hole that is positioned right between the two large squares.

 

[Shortstack]

Thom,
Here's what I see is a full body owl.

 

[VICTORIO]

Judy H, In refrence to the hand symbol in Topic 1817. For many years I have asked this of several people mainly in the Law Enforcement Field. It is strange that I see it here. When I was a Police Officer I investigated several crime scenes that envolved Murders. One thing I noticed in several of the diferent types of Murders is that the victims hand (s) were in this exact position. Thumb between index and middle finger. To this day I don't understand why these people in thier last moments would die with one or both of thier hands in that exact position as that hand in topic 1817. " Very Strange ". Maybe it is symbolic of something having to do with Death ( Murder ) . I really don't know just thought I should share that.

 

[hagerman]

Old Dog..
I am assuming that most of your pictures are form colorado.
I have been reading about the Utes that once lived all over colorado cause im trying to learn as much history about the state that i can so i can some day move back and explore like you do.
I see that a lot of these pictures are about spanish, but i am also curious about indian symbols.
They may not lead to treasure's but the utes did live in that area for a long time and i would think they knew it very well and maybe would have also marked trails, camps, battles, and such.
I have seen the few pictures of carvings you have posted from indians, but i would like to learn more about how and if both used eachothers symbols.
From what ive learned, Utes didnt seem to care too much for outsiders coming into their land (french or spanish). So stories of the spanish mining in colorado seem unlikely. since there is not much recorded history during this time, i would think that learning both styles would help much more in understanding how things could have been.
So im just curious what you have seen while out exploring if you have any pictures you would be willing to show.

 

[Springfield]

Judy H, In refrence to the hand symbol in Topic 1817. For many years I have asked this of several people mainly in the Law Enforcement Field. It is strange that I see it here. When I was a Police Officer I investigated several crime scenes that envolved Murders. One thing I noticed in several of the diferent types of Murders is that the victims hand (s) were in this exact position. Thumb between index and middle finger. To this day I don't understand why these people in thier last moments would die with one or both of thier hands in that exact position as that hand in topic 1817. " Very Strange ". Maybe it is symbolic of something having to do with Death ( Murder ) . I really don't know just thought I should share that.

Might be some sort of bodily reflex when the person passes on. Good question for an undertaker. I've also heard that a dying person will sometimes remove his wrist or pocket watch and toss it away - urban legend?

 

[emtrescue]

Judy H, In refrence to the hand symbol in Topic 1817. For many years I have asked this of several people mainly in the Law Enforcement Field. It is strange that I see it here. When I was a Police Officer I investigated several crime scenes that envolved Murders. One thing I noticed in several of the diferent types of Murders is that the victims hand (s) were in this exact position. Thumb between index and middle finger. To this day I don't understand why these people in thier last moments would die with one or both of thier hands in that exact position as that hand in topic 1817. " Very Strange ". Maybe it is symbolic of something having to do with Death ( Murder ) . I really don't know just thought I should share that.

Might be some sort of bodily reflex when the person passes on. Good question for an undertaker. I've also heard that a dying person will sometimes remove his wrist or pocket watch and toss it away - urban legend?

Without seeing pictures of the bodies, etc. I would say it's because of the rigor mortis setting in. When rigor happens the muscles contract - not to the point/strength of the whole body and long bone joints bend, but at the fingers the muscles of contraction are so much stronger than the ones of extension that they cause the fingers to bend some. If there's any resistance (palm down on the ground at time of death) they won't bend as much. Also - self experiment if you allow your hand to contract/rest naturally your thumb's natural tendency is to rest between your first and second fingers.

The original fist picture i wonder like Judy if it's a good luck symbol. It was found in a British museum in a loose box of Egyptian artifacts so maybe it's not really Egyptian. Just hypothesizing - not trying to discredit or anything. (maybe just ended up in the wrong box so to speak) Most Egyptian hands have their thumb out and are holding some type of rod inside of them.

 

[Old Dog]

Old Dog..
I am assuming that most of your pictures are form colorado.
I have been reading about the Utes that once lived all over colorado cause im trying to learn as much history about the state that i can so i can some day move back and explore like you do.
I see that a lot of these pictures are about spanish, but i am also curious about indian symbols.
They may not lead to treasure's but the utes did live in that area for a long time and i would think they knew it very well and maybe would have also marked trails, camps, battles, and such.
I have seen the few pictures of carvings you have posted from indians, but i would like to learn more about how and if both used eachothers symbols.
From what ive learned, Utes didnt seem to care too much for outsiders coming into their land (french or spanish). So stories of the spanish mining in colorado seem unlikely. since there is not much recorded history during this time, i would think that learning both styles would help much more in understanding how things could have been.
So im just curious what you have seen while out exploring if you have any pictures you would be willing to show.

Quite a few of my pictures are from colorado...(90+%) I have a very rich hunting area, much ignored and very pertinent to Colorado's history which is much distorted.

The Ute tolerance of the Spanish was a very short lived thing. The Spanish were welcomed into this territory and were even helped in their endeavors to find and capture the yellow metal. but when the Spanish started to abuse the friendship the same group that welcomed them chose to drive them out, killing many. There were several settlements that were started in the western part of Colorado that Escalante made a special effort to find. as he traveled through some of the toughest parts of this country he could only find where they should have been. they were swallowed up. the roads were here, the fortifications were here, the crops were in the ground but untended the people were just gone. As he came to the second settlement he was given the ultimatum to turn back before destruction came to his company.

Escalante never found the trail he sought, because he crossed the Gunnisson River between Delta and Whitewater CO. He traveled on the North side all the way to northern Utah where he was turned back.
If he had stayed on the Southern side of the Gunnisson, He would have found the trail head at Whitewater and made his way South to Flagstaff AZ (bypassing Santa Fe) And further to Baja CA where the miners were catching Dutch ships to Europe.

This got long winded. (and sooo much more to say...)
Sorry.
(one of my biggest pet peeves.)
Thom

 

[Shortstack]

That was a very interesting "read", Thom. I wouldn't mind reading more.

 

[dsty]

Thom your site is always near the top

 

[Old Dog]

That was a very interesting "read", Thom. I wouldn't mind reading more.

Thanks Bill.
It is important to say why The above is one of my biggest pet peeves.

History books record Escalante's expedition as the first Spanish in this part of the country.
This is completely untrue.
Recently a map of Spanish origin with Jesuit marks, was donated to the Museum of Western Colorado that is detailed and very descriptive. It probably took many years to accomplish, The date is 1640s. This map indicates this area as a possible place for the cities of Cibola, and shows much ancient activity. We have found articles that we have documented and donated that date much earlier than this map.
Escalante came through here in 1776.

The history is still taught out of the same books I was taught out of when I was in school.
No information updates. I am disgusted with the school system. A 50 year old history book is too old.

Thanks Ernie,
Always good to know you are posting my friend.

 

[Shortstack]

Thom,
The problem with getting new history books is the present Department of Education pukes dedicate a paragraph or 2 to George Washington and Abraham Lincoln and a chapter to Martin Luther King and another chapter to Rosa Parks. So, in order to keep the books with enough info on the country's founding fathers; you have to keep the old ones and not let the young "historians" write new ones.
I was so glad to see that school board in Texas require the new history books (or science books) for the state of Texas to include the theory of creation to be presented along side the theory of evolution. The book publishers have to publish so many books for that one state, they use the same info for their books for the other states........or something like that. LOL

 

[Old Dog]

Bill,
I think you will agree that is a pretty sorry excuse for inadequacy.
There is no excuse for teaching this kind of inaccurate crap to our children.

It just isn't right and shouldn't be accepted.

Just (my much less than) humble opinion

 

[Springfield]

.... History books record Escalante's expedition as the first Spanish in this part of the country.
This is completely untrue.
Recently a map of Spanish origin with Jesuit marks, was donated to the Museum of Western Colorado that is detailed and very descriptive. It probably took many years to accomplish, The date is 1640s. This map indicates this area as a possible place for the cities of Cibola, and shows much ancient activity. We have found articles that we have documented and donated that date much earlier than this map.
Escalante came through here in 1776.
.....

Can you provide more information regarding the map? I would be interested in a photo of the map, who donated it and it's provenence. I do believe there were certain undocumented European activities that occurred in a very limited number of southwestern locations and I understand your skepticism about accepted history (I share your point of view). However, we have to be very careful about the cornerstones we accept to bolster our own expanding ideas. Unfortunately, many frauds have been attempted in order to promote revisionist ideas - maps, documents, 'Indian secrets', artifacts, carvings, etc., especially prevalent in the state of Utah, but rampant all over the southwest.

 

[Old Dog]

I will find what I can in regard to this map. If I have to go take pictures of it myself. (that may be my only recourse)
I have looked all over the web to see if it is archived and get nowhere.
But the Curator of the Museum is a friend and will let me take pictures...
I am sue he will fill me in with particulars as well.

 

[Springfield]

I will find what I can in regard to this map. If I have to go take pictures of it myself. (that may be my only recourse)
I have looked all over the web to see if it is archived and get nowhere.
But the Curator of the Museum is a friend and will let me take pictures...
I am sue he will fill me in with particulars as well.

That's very generous of you. I imagine the results will be interesting.

 

[Shortstack]

Thom:
Part of the major problem in our public schools today is there are too many states (Mississippi included) that do not require a "teacher" to have a degree in the subject that they will be "teaching". The easiest college degree to get is the B.S. in Education. I read that as Bull Sh-- in Education. This hasn't JUST happened. When I was still in the USAF, stationed in OKC, my oldest daughter was in high school and came home one day laughing at her math teacher. (this was about 1985) She couldn't wait to tell me what happened in math class that day. Seems that her MATHEMATICS teacher did not know HOW to find the square root of a number by the division method and a student had to go to the blackboard and teach the rest of the class how to do that procedure. Empty textbooks and ign0rant teachers are the serious problems our kids and grandkids are STUCK with today. That is why so many high school "graduates" literally cannot read their own diplomas.
High schoolers cannot even diagram a simple sentence in English class. Hell, I can do that and it's been 45 years since I graduated. Of course you and I went to school when teachers actually KNEW their subjects and how to teach it.
Dang. I apologize to the folks on this thread for going off on a rant that has nothing to do with the subject at hand, but it totally p----- me off with the way the kids today are being SCREWED.

 

[DoveFeather]

Thom-Springfield, there was a picture of the map on the front page of "The Daily Sentinel" news paper on Jan 10, 2010. Posted by the Museum.