If you read at
ThinkQuest : 404 - Page Not Found , you will see these Minoan paintings which have found in Thera ( Santorini ) and show the " canoes " from that era . To me seems little bigger than canoes .[/quote
]
Where did I say that the Minoans had CANOES? You and I seem to always have problems in communicating meanings.
A Polynesian outrigger canoe, is NOT like the little slender craft used for fishing on a lake amigo; here is an example:
Here is an African war canoe (fairly modern, but the same design basically, easy for primitive cultures to build) and
as an example of what sort of sea craft that primitive cultures can build.
The Polynesians crossed the wide Pacific on such craft as these, and variations of them; when fitted with sail and outriggers, they were and are quite seaworthy. Polynesian people managed to reach the most remote island in the world, Easter Island, centuries before Europeans "discovered" them there, and had brought their animals, veggies etc as well as women. I state that Atlantis of 11,500 years ago, more likely had boats like those of the ancient Polynesians, than TRIREMES which were not invented prior to the 8th century BC, which as you know is centuries after the Minoans.
Markmar, probably you and I should not try to discuss this topic for we end up in
constant misunderstandings and I do not know how to state things more clearly for you.
Cactusjumper wrote
Roy, I know this was not your post, but it does create this question: How many boats of this size do you believe the Atlantians would need to invade the other islands and indeed continents which they attacked?
Your question is open to a string of variables; if you mean boats the size of the Minoans, obviously it would take more of them than an eighth century trireme. But then how large is the force being transported? Remember, a Norse raiding party might be only 20 or 30 warriors, and could be devastating to the recipient. The Norse did not use giant warships to invade Ireland or Britain, nor anywhere for that matter, and were able to conquer large areas. Don't assume that you must have large ships to transport fighting men. A dozen boats could transport enough warriors to seize an area. A series of such raids could quickly gain control over a large area.
To further illustrate this point - look at the size of the Polynesian war canoes - up to
140 feet long and with up to 80 men paddling, more than a platoon strength in modern terms. Or look at the stone age colonists of the island of Orkney, whom were able to transport not just the people but also their pigs, plants and even cattle! This done with only the sort of "primitive" boats you seem to think of as little better than a floating log!
Cactusjumper also wrote
Was the technology available to build more than small fishing boats/dugouts in that era? Do you believe they were the only ones with such abilities?
Do you consider 140 feet long,
a small dugout? Men were building "dugout" canoes using nothing more than fire, before the time of Atlantis. I do not believe that Atlantis was the only people capable of building boats in that day, as is shown by the artifacts found in Greece itself, people were crossing the seas from Greece, and probably the British isles as well, as shown by the evidence on the Orkneys.
Cactusjumper also wrote
When we look back at the existing societies/tribes at the end of the Ice Age, current archaeology does not support anything close to Atlantis existing. It just seems too much of a stretch for this poor brain.
I must respectfully disagree, entirely. The anachronistic elements of Plato's story are entirely within
only Critias, and are not DIS-proven. It is almost impossible to disprove an unknown; and none of these anachronistic things are SO advanced as to be utterly impossible. The Atlantis of Timaeus however is far more probable as a reality.
Let us recap the points: Plato states that the Atlantic was "navigable" then, with more islands like stepping stones; a glance at a map of the Atlantic as it was circa 10,500 BC, with the sea level lower by over 100 feet, there are indeed more islands and less ocean to cross. It would have been easier to cross, for a boat could land more frequently to resupply fresh water etc.
<borrowed from
http://www.iceagenow.com/SeaLevel_LastIceAge.gif
Plato stated that the main island of Atlantis vanished in a single day and night of "earthquakes and floods" - note NO mention of any volcanic eruption whatsoever. It is a scientific fact that large land masses can and do subside beneath sea level. The most recent that I know of was along the coast of Chile, in 1960 <Validivia> when
several thousand square miles of land suddenly collapsed below sea level and is now sea. Our current state of science and archaeology do NOT know exactly how many, when, nor the locations, of ancient land subsidences, as far as I could determine. Besides this known method of sudden sinking, volcanic type islands also suffer island collapse, which can happen very suddenly and drop thousands of feet below the surface, as has happened in the Canary islands, Hawaiian islands and others.
There were a people living in Greece, and a good size part of the Balkans and Asia Minor as well, whom were also farmers and crossing the seas, whom the ancient Greeks referred to as the Pelasgians; these would be the people whom the Atlantians were fighting when the disaster destroyed Atlantis. Not the Minoans vs the Myceneans, which by the way, some archaeologists have pointed out,
there is very little evidence that the Minoans even had an army.
It seems to me, Joe, that you have your own image of what Atlantis must be, taken from Critias mostly and ignoring all other ancient sources, which we all do when we read any ancient history. Illustrators of Medeival history books depicted ancient Romans dressed in Medeival suits of armor, which we know is utterly incorrect. We should not try to picture Atlantis in terms of Classical Greek imagery. Remember what Plutarch said - that Plato had embellished the story with grand estates and things which no one ever had. Not that there was not a real Atlantis, complete with the island sinking below the sea, but that Plato had added things to the story which did not rightly belong to it. I think it is very easy to see the embellishments, like chariots, triremes etc even the hot and cold running water which is not SO far fetched.
Very little archaeological work has been done beneath the sea in the Atlantic; what little has been done, shows a human presence on lands which are now beneath the surface, as for example the human habitations found on the bottom of the English channel.
It is FAR too premature to make the assumption then, that since the evidence has not been found, that it can not exist. Look at some recent false ideas held by our historians, like the number of chariots that the ancient Egyptians had; most historians stated the numbers listed in ancient sources like the Old Testament are wild exaggerations, but recent discoveries have shown that Egypt did indeed have many hundreds, perhaps several thousand chariots. Or the great sea battle of Actium between Antony, Cleopatra and Octavian; our historians insisted that the numbers listed in the ancient sources are wild exaggerations, and no such large ships existed, but again recent study of the triumphal monument erected by Octavian which had held the "beaks" of his opponents warships, proved not only that the numbers are not exaggerated at all, but that the ships were indeed just as large as the ancient record states they were.
We should not project our own idea of what Atlantis must be, rather we should be patient and keep our minds open to what the evidence will, and I believe already has started to show. If you insist that we stick to Critias literally, then it almost certainly never existed and no one will ever find that place. No other ancient source supports all the things listed in Critias. On the other hand, I am firmly convinced that there was an ancient civilization called Atlantis or some name similar to that, which was lost during the catastrophic end of the last Ice Age and remains under the sea.
Salura - welcome to Treasurenet!

I think you will find there are more ladies among us than you may suspect, though they have not been posting as much as some of us loudmouths!
Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. Oroblanco

