Atlantis

[cactusjumper]

RW,

"I could donate my time in translating ancient writings that are self-evident."

Are you able to translate all ancient writings, or would we need to be specific as to which ancient people's writings we submit to you?

Many thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[Oroblanco]

ZX

Marius,

No.......Atlantis is a fable, what RWLJ just wrote would be considered a saga.

Joe

That is quite a strong statement - can you prove it? Thank you in advance.

RWLJ, you have covered a LOT of ground there amigo, I won't try to address every point but will try to answer some.

RWLJ wrote

Oroblonco,I have never implied that all history has been corrupted. I can guarantee that you will never discover the island of Atlantis in what is called the Atlantic Ocean today.

My apologies for having gotten the impression that you believed ALL of our written history is corrupted. As to my chances of discovering Atlantis, I have already found it.

RWLJ also wrote

The oldest trick in the book is red herring. When you conquer a people you give new places old names after two or three generations of enslavement they do not know the different. Constantine and his mother Helen, were go examples of that. The Arab Jews in the Middle East created a New Jerusalem and called it such.

I have seen no evidence that many places have been re-named, without that fact being well known to all. There are a few, but in most cases, the original place still retains the original name, like the Mt Olympus in Greece, venerated by Greeks for thousands of years and I will accept their claim to it being the original. But in some cases, like Mt Ararat, we can not be sure that it was the original Mt Ararat or if Noah had given it that name in the mistaken belief that it was the mountains of Ararat he had known prior to the great flood.

RWLJ also wrote

When you can recognize the first Mount Olympus and separate the man from the place then you will know that Atlas was king of Atlantis and Atlas’s land was right where the Aztecs and many other ancient nations put it.

The Aztecs homeland has two versions, one to the north, and one to the east. If memory serves, Montezuma told Cortez that his ancestors had come from the east, and that would be in the direction of the Atlantic. What other nations place Atlantis in Utah, besides Aztecs, and in that case we have the two versions and only one COULD be located in Utah, it could be elsewhere - Texas or New Mexico, for examples.

RWLJ also wrote

If we have too much pride in our false traditions and our learning then we should remember what a wise man said “pride cometh before a fall”. If it was not for people’s pride as Apostil Paul says in Romans chapter 11 verse 25 people would pull in their horns with humility and seek out the truth.

Wise words, we ought to ALL keep in mind; it is also in keeping with a certain passage in the gospel of Thomas,

Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." <Thomas gospel, 5>

RWLJ also wrote

For a good example of corrupted history; look at of all the thousands of people that have looked in the Superstitious Mountains for the so called Dutchman’s gold.

Those whom search in the Superstition mountains for the gold mine of Jacob Waltz are doing so for good reason, there is every reason to believe that is where it is located. Why else would Waltz have pointed to those very mountains, while telling his closest friends, there is my mine? It would hardly make sense for him to have done so, if his mine were not located there. This of course has little to do with Atlantis.

RWLJ also wrote

Another one was that Oswald killed Kennedy. <snip>

While I am in agreement that Oswald was not the man whom shot JFK, this topic is very much OFF topic and should probably have a separate thread to cover it.

RWLJ also wrote

I do not think it is right to stand by and let people be buffaloed by those that are perpetuating falsehoods that keep the ignorant masses blind. I would like to see one piece of evident of Atlantis being in what is called the Atlantic Ocean today.

Plato's two texts on Atlantis, both state unequivocally that Atlantis stood in the Atlantic ocean. Diodorus, Strabo, and others likewise, and even before Plato, Herodotus mentioned that the Atlantic ocean was named "the sea of Atlantis",
<Thalassa e Atlantis, in Greek, see "The Histories" by Herodotus,Hdt. 1.202.4 > this tidbit being literally 'lost in translation" as most translations of the histories of Atlantis have simply changed the S in Atlantis to a C, so that it vanishes before the eye for most English readers. Unless you wish to discard Plato and all other ancient sources from the Greeks and Romans entirely, then Atlantis is in the Atlantic ocean and no where else.

RWLJ also wrote

Likewise I would like to see one piece of evident that Joshua back to Adam was ever in the Middle East or that the first Mount Olympus with the Greek gods was ever in the Greece of Plato’s day.

Recent archaeological discoveries have turned up solid proof of a number of Old Testament figures; or even in the Egyptian records we now know that the pharaoh whom was ruling the country when the Hebrews were leaving was not Rameses but Amosis, which name means literally, "brother of Moses". There is every reason to believe that the Patriarchs were living in and active in, the Middle East. The ruins of Solomon's temple at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem ought to be a strong piece of proof for you, besides the written records of the enemies of the Hebrews such as the Hittites or even the Romans, as recorded by Josephus. I would suggest this site (and their publication) for much more information:
Biblical Archaeology Review Magazine - Biblical Archaeology Society

RWLJ also wrote

Which one of about forty Mount Olympuses around the world is the original one? The one that Hercules and Atlas and all the other gods of the ancients tied in with. Likewise, where are the ancient records that support all these claims out there?

The oldest, original Mount Olympus is in Greece; we only know about it at all from the Greeks who say it is there. If there was another Olympus before the Greeks, we don't know about it as it was not written down. Herakles did not originate with the Greeks, according to the Greek historians themselves, he was a Tyrian philosopher, and the most ancient temples built to him were found in the Phoenician city of Tyre. The history of the Greeks and Phoenicians is very intimately interwoven. The oldest Phoenician records that I am aware of, besides the rather brief inscriptions found at various ruins or graves, is the history of Sanchoniathon, which is not online as far as I know but you can find a copy of an English translation in "Cory's Ancient Fragments" which also includes the Tyrian annals (which bring their history up to the time of Nebuchadnezzar, if memory serves) as well as Manethos' kings list, the fragments of several other ancient civilizations written records - a great read and both interesting and helpful for research.

http://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/cor...-richmond-hodges/1022815987?ean=9781446006306


RWLJ also wrote

While there is a lot of beautiful true history out there some of it has been tainted. Why would someone want to white wash history?

That is a very good, if rhetorical question. Some people are trying to set the record straight, and tell our history as it really was, "warts and all" as the saying goes, but there are some powerful and influential organizations which have a large stake in keeping the flawed and sometimes erroneous story as the accepted version of events. Thankfully, that situation is changing, for better or worse.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - even Atlantis!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

oro, Joe, el steak robber: In my files somewhere there is statement that they had found a carved stone image which bears a remarkable resemblance to a 1930's Ford convertible coup.

the wheels were found to rotate freely on two axles.

From data found with it, it was dated to '7000' years ago. Explanation ?

Have we recycled civilization many times?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Rebel - KGC]

oro, Joe, el steak robber: In my files somewhere there is statement that they had found a carved stone image which bears a remarkable resemblance to a 1930's Ford convertible coup.

the wheels were found to rotate freely on two axles.

From data found with it, it was dated to '7000' years ago. Explanation ?

Have we recycled civilization many times?

Don Jose de La Mancha

OOPS!

 

[cactusjumper]

That is quite a strong statement - can you prove it? Thank you in advance.

RWLJ, you have covered a LOT of ground there amigo, I won't try to address every point but will try to answer some.

RWLJ wrote


My apologies for having gotten the impression that you believed ALL of our written history is corrupted. As to my chances of discovering Atlantis, I have already found it.

RWLJ also wrote


I have seen no evidence that many places have been re-named, without that fact being well known to all. There are a few, but in most cases, the original place still retains the original name, like the Mt Olympus in Greece, venerated by Greeks for thousands of years and I will accept their claim to it being the original. But in some cases, like Mt Ararat, we can not be sure that it was the original Mt Ararat or if Noah had given it that name in the mistaken belief that it was the mountains of Ararat he had known prior to the great flood.

RWLJ also wrote


The Aztecs homeland has two versions, one to the north, and one to the east. If memory serves, Montezuma told Cortez that his ancestors had come from the east, and that would be in the direction of the Atlantic. What other nations place Atlantis in Utah, besides Aztecs, and in that case we have the two versions and only one COULD be located in Utah, it could be elsewhere - Texas or New Mexico, for examples.

RWLJ also wrote


Wise words, we ought to ALL keep in mind; it is also in keeping with a certain passage in the gospel of Thomas,

Jesus said, "Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you . For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest." <Thomas gospel, 5>

RWLJ also wrote


Those whom search in the Superstition mountains for the gold mine of Jacob Waltz are doing so for good reason, there is every reason to believe that is where it is located. Why else would Waltz have pointed to those very mountains, while telling his closest friends, there is my mine? It would hardly make sense for him to have done so, if his mine were not located there. This of course has little to do with Atlantis.

RWLJ also wrote


While I am in agreement that Oswald was not the man whom shot JFK, this topic is very much OFF topic and should probably have a separate thread to cover it.

RWLJ also wrote


Plato's two texts on Atlantis, both state unequivocally that Atlantis stood in the Atlantic ocean. Diodorus, Strabo, and others likewise, and even before Plato, Herodotus mentioned that the Atlantic ocean was named "the sea of Atlantis",
<Thalassa e Atlantis, in Greek, see "The Histories" by Herodotus,Hdt. 1.202.4 > this tidbit being literally 'lost in translation" as most translations of the histories of Atlantis have simply changed the S in Atlantis to a C, so that it vanishes before the eye for most English readers. Unless you wish to discard Plato and all other ancient sources from the Greeks and Romans entirely, then Atlantis is in the Atlantic ocean and no where else.

RWLJ also wrote


Recent archaeological discoveries have turned up solid proof of a number of Old Testament figures; or even in the Egyptian records we now know that the pharaoh whom was ruling the country when the Hebrews were leaving was not Rameses but Amosis, which name means literally, "brother of Moses". There is every reason to believe that the Patriarchs were living in and active in, the Middle East. The ruins of Solomon's temple at the Temple Mount in Jerusalem ought to be a strong piece of proof for you, besides the written records of the enemies of the Hebrews such as the Hittites or even the Romans, as recorded by Josephus. I would suggest this site (and their publication) for much more information:
Biblical Archaeology Review Magazine - Biblical Archaeology Society

RWLJ also wrote


The oldest, original Mount Olympus is in Greece; we only know about it at all from the Greeks who say it is there. If there was another Olympus before the Greeks, we don't know about it as it was not written down. Herakles did not originate with the Greeks, according to the Greek historians themselves, he was a Tyrian philosopher, and the most ancient temples built to him were found in the Phoenician city of Tyre. The history of the Greeks and Phoenicians is very intimately interwoven. The oldest Phoenician records that I am aware of, besides the rather brief inscriptions found at various ruins or graves, is the history of Sanchoniathon, which is not online as far as I know but you can find a copy of an English translation in "Cory's Ancient Fragments" which also includes the Tyrian annals (which bring their history up to the time of Nebuchadnezzar, if memory serves) as well as Manethos' kings list, the fragments of several other ancient civilizations written records - a great read and both interesting and helpful for research.

Cory's Ancient Fragments Of The Phoenician, Carthaginian, Babylonian, Egyptian And Other Authors by Edward Richmond Hodges | 9781446006306 | Paperback | Barnes & Noble


RWLJ also wrote


That is a very good, if rhetorical question. Some people are trying to set the record straight, and tell our history as it really was, "warts and all" as the saying goes, but there are some powerful and influential organizations which have a large stake in keeping the flawed and sometimes erroneous story as the accepted version of events. Thankfully, that situation is changing, for better or worse.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek - even Atlantis!
Roy ~ Oroblanco

Roy,

Since when do we need to provide any kind of proof for what we write here?

As for my "saga" statement, I believe RW's post fits the description very well.

[h=2]sa·ga[/h] noun \ˈsä-gə also ˈsa-\ : a long and complicated story with many details

: a long and complicated series of events

: a long story about past heroes from Norway and Iceland

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


Since when do we need to provide any kind of proof for what we write here?


As for my "saga" statement, I believe RW's post fits the description very well.


sa·ga


noun \ˈsä-gə also ˈsa-\ : a long and complicated story with many details


: a long and complicated series of events


: a long story about past heroes from Norway and Iceland

Ah,...hmm. So if I am asked a question, I am expected to back it up with sources, quotations and extracts, but if I ask you a question, no proof is required? It is not like the question was a difficult one, you could have pulled up the definition of Atlantis from Merriam-Webster, like this, quote

Atlantis: a fabled island in the Atlantic that according to legend sank beneath the sea

Atlantis - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary


That example would have backed up your statement, as Merriam Websters is very widely acknowledged as a reliable source. Which however does not make the dictionary correct either! A good example of the very same dictionary being very wrong is found on the very same page and same topic - for under the listing for definition, it lists the "Origin" thus:

Origin of ATLANTIS


Latin, from Greek, from Atlas
First Known Use: 1602

<ibid>


The first known use of the name Atlantis is certainly NOT 1602, but more like 460 BC, when Hellanicus of Mytilene wrote his poem with that name as the title, and we do have fragments showing that name; but even earlier, Solon would certainly have included it in his work which is however lost today. So despite Merriam Webster's superb reputation, we can actually prove it has some glaring errors, even on this very topic.


I did not question nor comment on your statement concerning RWLJ's post as a "saga", which you did bother to support with source references. Need a fresh coffee amigo?


I hope all is well with you folks.

Don Jose de la Mancha - I would like to see the artifact you refer to, before making comment. There are a number of artifacts found in ancient sites, which are very hard to explain in the conventional, linear progression of history and technological advancement, such as the winged "bird" effigy or toy artifacts which include features found on NO bird known to us, but are found on modern jet aircraft. Wheeled toys are not quite as inexplicable as a model of a jet plane found in a Pharaoh's tomb.

Thank you Quinoa for the post on Heracleion! A great example of a supposedly "fabled" city, sunk in the sea, now found and known to be fact.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Actually, "fable", saga and RW were all in the one statement.

I agree with your statement on the name "Atlantis", but when was it first associated with an Island that sank into the Atlantic?

"Ah,...hmm. So if I am asked a question, I am expected to back it up with sources, quotations and extracts, but if I ask you a question, no proof is required? It is not like the question was a difficult one, you could have pulled up the definition of Atlantis from Merriam-Webster, like this, quote...."

How else am I to learn? I did, of course, pull up that very quote but did not bother to cite it because it was so easy to find.......among others.

Take care and stay toasty!

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

How else am I to learn?

I would say that I am the one learning - try to learn something new every day, and sometimes that happens here!

Cactusjumper also wrote

I agree with your statement on the name "Atlantis", but when was it first associated with an Island that sank into the Atlantic?

We can not know for sure, Plato seems the obvious answer but he was drawing on Solon, whom was himself drawing on Egyptian sources, which in turn we have evidence that they were not the originators either. We do not have the whole of Hellanicus' work, nor the pillars seen by Crantor in Egypt. The fact that Herodotus used the name, without explaining the fate of the island for which the sea got the name, could be pointed to as the first published that we KNOW of, for certainly Atlantis was not above water in the time of Herodotus.

Why do you dismiss what Plato wrote, when he said this:

Soc. And what other, Critias, can we find that will be better than this, which is natural and suitable to the festival of the goddess, and has the very great advantage of being a fact and not a fiction?

<Timaeus>


To further emphasize that the "Athenians" and "Athens" of Plato's story are not necessarily direct antecedents, but a former people whom lived in the same region, consider this passage also from Timaeus

Our intention is, that Timaeus, who is the most of an astronomer amongst us, and has made the nature of the universe his special study, should speak first, beginning with the generation of the world and going down to the creation of man; next, I am to receive the men whom he has created of whom some will have profited by the excellent education which you have given them; and then, in accordance with the tale of Solon, and equally with his law, we will bring them into court and make them citizens, as if they were those very Athenians whom the sacred Egyptian record has recovered from oblivion, and thenceforward we will speak of them as Athenians and fellow-citizens.

One last point, further proof that the ancients were much better informed about the shape of our world and its geography, even in 350 BC, this passage, from the same source

Wherefore he made the world in the form of a globe, round as from a lathe, having its extremes in every direction equidistant from the centre, the most perfect and the most like itself of all figures; for he considered that the like is infinitely fairer than the unlike.

Good luck and good hunting Joe and everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[RWLJ]

2/21/14​

Hello oroblanco,

You might want to recognize that Plato had information on Atlantis that he himself did not understand to well. The very fact that he ended his writing on Atlantis where he did, states a lot. He may have himself started to recognize the bigger picture. If he would have written anymore he may have recognized that he would have been putting his foot in his own mouth.

I would suggest that you study some of the maps in the book The Friar’s Map of Ancient America, 1369 AD, by Gunnar Thompson.

Even National Geographic published a map showing different maps of what they thought was the Mediterranean. The last map that they showed, of what they thought was the Mediterranean was the newest of all the maps. It did not fit the Mediterranean as much as the other maps. It showed Jerusalem in the center of it. The book The Friar’s Map shows similar maps. If this was a map of what we call the Mediterranean today and what is called Jerusalem today, it would indicate that map drawers were inferior to their predecessors and that they became less informed or lost the ability to draw what we call the Mediterranean today. That map fits Solomon’s Jerusalem where the first Jericho still exists. The Friar’s Map also shows older maps of first Asia, Africa and Europe. Not the copycat places that are known about today.

When Plato was talking about Atlantis being bigger than Asia and Africa combined, what Asia and what Africa was he talking about? Did he know much more about what he was talking about then the people that think that they have the walls or ruins of Solomon’s Temple in the Middle East? Recently they have dug up coins under that wall and other things that show that the wall did not exist in the days of Christ. The coins were made to represented Caesars or Emperors of a later date. Christ said there would not be one stone left upon another. Scholars and archaeologists have looked for it for year and have yet to find a trace of Solomon’s Temple. If they did it would have had to be carried from here to over there.

You may fool or influence those that want to remain in the dark ages but you have no walls or ruins over there that tie in with Solomon’s Temple. You might have other things that he built when he was over there during his three years of travel.

I have seen many things that will bring about the rewriting of history. I know what I have seen to be real. Homer’s writings are real clear. It matches the Aztecs and the other histories and what I have personally seen for years at the site. He writes that Troy was on the lower part of Mount Olympus and that all of its foundations were dug up.

Just because someone was not smart enough and they thought that they had found Troy with its foundations in tacked in Turkey, does not mean it is there. They are trying to make what Alexander called new Troy a rebuilt first Troy. This is not according to the facts of history. It is very unlikely that someone rebuilt a city and call in New Troy. It would be about as foolish as to look for Old York under New York. It also contradicts Homer and the Dead Sea Scrolls.

It took Odysseus ten years to get back home. Their war was not fought across the channel between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.

You made a big deal in the past that Atlantis was not a continent. How much do you know that Plato knew? He may have been as mistaken in his interpretations about Atlantis, as you are about your interpretations of the whereabouts of the land of Joshua’s conquest. I can speak boldly with authority because I have seen many things that are for real that the world does not know about.

When can you show me the Troy on Mount Olympus? If you cannot show me first Troy on the first Mount Olympus, then you should be open minded so someone can show you the land of first Mount Olympus and first Troy. On second Troy you would not be able to show me any of the original gods and what they originally were.

I could ask you hundreds of questions that you would not be able to answer in your own right. I have seen many people that can grab onto wild assumptions that hold water like a sieve.

The continent of Atlantis is bigger than Asia and Africa combined and that goes for both new Asia and Africa and old Asia and Africa. Asia means a she ass and Africa means the shadow of God. The continent of Atlantis is not to be confused with the island of Atlantis. The continent of Atlantis is America. The island of Atlantis is in the middle sea of the Ta land (Utah) the first Mediterranean, also known as the Atlantean sea or the sea of the right hand of God. It is called Lake Bonneville today. Maybe Plato was not able to give you history straighter because he did not known any better, like people today do not know much about real history. We have never fully come out of the Dark Ages of the uninformed leading the uninformed.

White men did not understand the greater meaning when the Aztecs said that they came from the land of the rising sun. The white men interpreted it to mean east. His interpretation of that to mean east, is a confession of his own ignorance.

Christ spoke in parables so the lesser would understand the lesser. The Aztecs would not have been excited about the Spanish understanding the original meanings, for obvious reasons.

John D. Lee, the so called Jacob Waltz who had worked and learned about Indian ways, pointed out and gave the people a true reflection of a place and many things that reflected the real place. He left a real parable in a manner that reflected some Indian ways. People colonized what we call the old world today. To these ancient colonizers the old world of today was their new world. They named things there after their Motherland and gave names to places that reflected the original places that they came from in one way or another.

The wise ones that did not want to betray the library and treasures in the Motherland or Underworld would not have identified what was new and what was old. They would have stayed away from casting pearls before swine.


Oroblanco wrote

Jesus said, “Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest.” (Thomas gospel, 5)

That is a very good quote. I could show you many things that are within our sight today. I have posted some. There are many things within our sight that we could look at that leads to far greater things that are plain and self-evident. These things are for the honest and pure in heart that can come out of Babylon and its churches that have prostituted themselves. Too many are grabbing onto any wild assumption that comes along to support the false base they got from Babylon.

You make some wild assumptions about the Pharaoh at the time that Moses left the land of the Mizraims being Amosis. Neither Moses or the Israelites as a nation where ever in Egypt, over there at that time. Nor is it mentioned in the Old Testament of the Israelites ever seeing the great structures that are in Egypt. Moses led the children out of the land of Mizraim. Mizraim is in the western United States.

I am not going to touch on every little straw that you are holding onto to support your Babylonian premise. I can personally show you the travels of the Israelites and where their exodus came to a stop. There is much of their hand writing still there on the rocks.

You mention Biblical Archaeology Review. You need to read July/August 1996 vol. 22 #4 starting with page thirty. It makes it really clear that Joshua’s conquest did not take place in the Middle East. On page thirty six it shows a picture of a Merneptah Stele. Pharaoh Merneptah stated that Israel was laid waste. The Egyptians thought it was good that Israel had been laid waste by the Greeks. They may have even allied with the Greeks in bringing down Troy, the Israelite capital at the time. They were likely not to happy when the Israelites conquered their Motherland, the land of the Mizraims. There are many things in Biblical Archeology Review that discredits the conquest of Joshua having ever happened in the Middle East.

I would also suggest that you read The Bible Unearthed, by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

I do not know of one biblical archaeologist scholars, people of true scientist that supports a Joshua conquest in the Middle East.

In reply to my Jericho post, you talk about some volcano by the name of Thera, Santorini erupting. I examined this story some time ago and recognized that they have come up with a little reality about volcanic activity during the time of Moses. Beyond that I could not give it much creditability it was based on assumptions upon assumptions. True Mount Sinai was a volcano that created a cloud by day and a fire by night. Moses set up boundaries lest the fire break out and kill them. He kept the people away from it until it blew its trumpet really hard. When you get into the real land of Joshua you find that real biblical history fits really well.

You try to identify the Hyk-sos that over ran Egypt as if they were the true Israelites. I have heard this story before and it does not carry any legitimate weight. First place there were seventy Israelites that went down into the land of Mizraim not Egypt. Egypt is an alteration of the Old Testament text. The Ten Commandments in stone in Los Lunas, New Mexico says they were lead out of the land of Mizraim. While Joseph ruled under a Pharaoh the Israelites never dominated the Motherland of Mizraim. However it is highly likely that when the Mizraim army went down in the red sea or the sea of Eden here in Utah that it opened the doors for the Hyk-sos to take that land when the Mizraim army fell in this land.

Oroblanco, I am sorry but I have one advantage over you. I have history that did not come through the nations that made up the image of Babylon. It is untainted by Babylon. We have carved writing that is dated to be five thousand years old. I have seen Exodus stories, one that was black with desert varnish that is older than anything that ties with Hebrew writing in the Middle East. That story is written right where the Exodus story came to an end under Joshua.

How are you going to look and what are you going to say when you have to confront the records in the library that is in the area of the Tree of Life? Even Adam in his day was not allowed to partake of in his day.

On the Molina Map it marks that place of the Temple and say ancient library in Spanish. They are looking for that place in the Grand Canyon. Those that want to believe in what came through Babylon can keep on looking there. Those that want to believe it is in the Superstitious Mountains should keep on looking there. That goes for the Tucson area or West Texas or those that are looking for Solomon’s Mines which were once called the Tayopa Mines in northern Mexico. Likewise they should keep on looking where they think they are at. They have a right to waste their own money and time.

You once tried to correct me when I referred to a place that was called the heart. You corrected me and said it meant white. I told you that I already knew that that was its first meaning. There have already been two men that have posted on this site that I told the first meaning of its name before I ever met you.

There are many people that are a witness to a bigger story of things, then what I have shown on this site. If anyone is really seeking truth then they should search all new things and not make assumption based on Babylonian confusion.

I will not always have time to speedily answer every question out there. People should recognize it is not always wise to judge new things by their old paradigm. In general people are in a channel or chain of believes that appear more logical to them. There are just a few that have the strength to reexamine and give up all their established premises. If we are going to win, we have to examine all of our foundations or premises that we have built on with the new evidence of things and let the cream or the truth rise to the top.

I have noticed in many debates that the ones that have the weaker platform start throwing in any kind of flak to avoid the truth. They also throw flak because they did not want to hear the other side or they do it to throw their opposition off by overwhelming him with a lot of flak.

Even when we have facts on our side it is comforting to see testimonies that support our premise. We need to not feel bad when we lose. The truth is more important than any one person or their ego. I would rather lose and gain the truth then win with falsehoods and destroy my future. So one again look at the greater knowledge of new discoveries, they can prevent us from being wrong or making fools of ourselves. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.

I myself at least in times past was more interested in being a live coward then a dead hero. This is my way of showing a smile face.

I invite you all to look before you jump out on a limb. The new discoveries will bring about a marvelous work and a wonder, as it says in Isiah 29. In part the fulfillment of where you quote Jesus.

Let us all take our time and build on a sure foundation. Let us be slow to judge all things without first looking at all things.

Why would people rush to judgments when they know little or nothing about new great discoveries? Only a poor or corrupt judge would judge a situation without looking at both sides of the story. We have a lot more history and facts here then they have in the Middle East and it is much older. The challenge is to investigate. Again condemnation without investigation is ignorance on the war path.

R. W.



​

 

[RWLJ]

2/21/14​

Hello cactusjumper,

In answer to your question as to what writing I can read. Judging by what I can read interpret and then find what it talks about. I believe that I can read a lot of basic symbols fairly good. There is no way that I can understand how all cultures used them basic symbols at different times. When it comes to certain threads of the father of Paleo Hebrew writing that was used from the time of Adam to the time of the Trojan War, some of it is about as clear to me as reading English. Beyond that I would probably be better than most in picture story writings in North America. When it comes to Ogham or Ogam Writing in America most authorities in that field would leave me in the dust. When it comes to cousins of the Paleo Hebrew writings in America there is a large majority of it that I still need to learn.

I find that the Aztec languages that the Aztecs used symbols like many other cultures that had a greater meaning to the priest but a simply common meaning for the less educated massed. Across the Americas many wrote in ways that you could understand the lesser meaning or the greater meaning. Like the Bible that is full of parables and much of it is written so that the lesser would understand the lesser and the greater would understand the greater.

I am sure some of the writers felt that they did not want to cast pearls before swine. Nor did they want to get themselves executed by offending the powers that be, or betray that which is sacred to Israel.

When the Aztec said they came from the rising sun they wanted to miss lead and keep the white man and others dumbed down. Sure enough those that were not educated interpreted it that they came from the east. Their objective was accomplished in the way they spoke. Likewise today those that want to grab on to all kinds of assumptions and hang onto Dark Age traditions might be better off left in the dark. These people are usually to busy protecting their ego, to seek and support the truth.

Thank you for your question.
R. W.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

G'd afternoon R.W. may I ask where the infamous PIRI maps apply to your theory ? Coffee??

Doin Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ancient Vehicle Discovered in Turkey

Updated about 5 months ago

Historians tell us the oldest civilized cultures who developed the wheel are around 5,000 years old, and yet, new discoveries are continually pushing this date further back – WITHOUT our history books reflecting on the new information. Generations of people still believe that the oldest organized civilizations are those that lived in the Middle East, parts of China and groups scattered throughout the world. Before 3,000 years – we are told that man lived in caves.

Here is an example of the wheel, attached to a small toy car of some type that was found to be 7,500 years old. It is older than anything I have found in Central or South America that has wheels, and may have once been formed from clay, (and has turned to stone.)

Here is the article in its entirety.

-Cliff

World's Oldest Toy Car -
Could This 7500-Year-Old Discovery Be The Earliest Evidence Of The Wheel?

Today parents buy their children electric car toys to play with, but thousands of years ago the situation was somewhat different. Yet, this ancient discovery reveals our ancestors were aware of the wheel 7500 years ago!

A stone car with two axles and 4 wheels dating from about 7500 years ago was found during excavations in the Kiziltepe district of the southeastern province of Mardin, are now on display at the Mardin Museum, Turkey. Archaeologist Mesut Alp said that the toy car, which is made out of stone, dates back to the late Stone Age and is thought to be 7,500 years old. According to the Culture and Tourism Director of Mardin, Davut Beliktay, the car is like a copy of cars today. He also points out that the shape of this ancient toy resembles a tractor.

Beliktay also revealed that toy dolls and whistles, also made of stone, were found at sites in the area, "we believe that the whistles and dolls are 5,000 to 6,000 years old. The whistles are still in working condition," he said. In display was also an ancient stone tablet inscribed with writing. Following exhaustive historical analysis, the writing on the 5 centimeter stone, which was uncovered at an excavation site at the Girnavas Mound, 4km from the historic district of Nusaybin -was deemed to be the content of an ancient title deed. Perhaps they even knew had their own equivalent of auto refinance loans.

Archaeologist Alp explained that the title deed is 2,800 years old and pertains to the selling of a garden. The content of the deed he added refers to a fruit garden, and the fruit trees within, which are to be split between the three sons of the owner. The deed refers to "Nabulu" which Alp explained was in fact the old name of current Nusaybin. Beliktay has confirmed that comprehensive information on the two finds will be provided soon.

Still, the most fascinating item is the ancient car toy. Some have suggested it is not a car, but rather a chariot. However, chariots usually have only two wheels and pulled by an animal.

So the question remains: Is this little ancient toy car perhaps the earliest evidence of the wheel?

 

[Rebel - KGC]

OOPS!

 

[Oroblanco]

WARNING - extra coffee alert - may need the whole danged pot!

Hola amigos,


This is a very long reply, so I must ask your indulgence, or you are free to skip the whole thing and I will not be offended. Thank you in either case;


Don Jose - thank you for posting the article! The best explanation I can come up with is to compare that toy with known examples of four-wheeled Scythian chariots, which do resemble modern vehicles to some degree. But it is strange nonetheless.


RW your reply is rather lengthy and covers a lot of territory so I may miss some points in response. If so I hope you know it is not a deliberate evasion but an oversight. I too have only limited time to spend online and sometimes miss things of importance.


RWLJ wrote

Hello oroblanco,


You might want to recognize that Plato had information on Atlantis that he himself did not understand to well. The very fact that he ended his writing on Atlantis where he did, states a lot. He may have himself started to recognize the bigger picture. If he would have written anymore he may have recognized that he would have been putting his foot in his own mouth.

Or it may be that the remainder of Plato's text simply got lost over the centuries. We can not know for sure. I can't agree that Plato had information that he failed to understand well; nothing in his writings leads me to think that he did not fully grasp what he wrote of.


RWLJ also wrote

I would suggest that you study some of the maps in the book The Friar’s Map of Ancient America, 1369 AD, by Gunnar Thompson.


Even National Geographic published a map showing different maps of what they thought was the Mediterranean. The last map that they showed, of what they thought was the Mediterranean was the newest of all the maps. It did not fit the Mediterranean as much as the other maps. It showed Jerusalem in the center of it. The book The Friar’s Map shows similar maps. If this was a map of what we call the Mediterranean today and what is called Jerusalem today, it would indicate that map drawers were inferior to their predecessors and that they became less informed or lost the ability to draw what we call the Mediterranean today. That map fits Solomon’s Jerusalem where the first Jericho still exists. The Friar’s Map also shows older maps of first Asia, Africa and Europe. Not the copycat places that are known about today.

Thank you for the book suggestion, however there is a fairly good 'chain of custory' to use the legalese term, that the places which most people identify as the Holy Land, Solomon's Temple, rebuilt on the same spot several times over the centuries, with the last reconstruction being erected by the infamous king Herod, on Temple Mount in Jerusalem, Palestine. If we try to point anywhere else as the "real" site of these biblical places, then we would have to also have an explanation for what we can see in Israel, Palestine, Jordan, Syria, Iraq, and Egypt. If they are not truly the Holy Land, then what are they?


RWLJ also wrote

When Plato was talking about Atlantis being bigger than Asia and Africa combined, what Asia and what Africa was he talking about? Did he know much more about what he was talking about then the people that think that they have the walls or ruins of Solomon’s Temple in the Middle East? Recently they have dug up coins under that wall and other things that show that the wall did not exist in the days of Christ. The coins were made to represented Caesars or Emperors of a later date. Christ said there would not be one stone left upon another. Scholars and archaeologists have looked for it for year and have yet to find a trace of Solomon’s Temple. If they did it would have had to be carried from here to over there.

It appears that you have not compared the Greek text of Plato with this modern idea of Atlantis as a "continent". His sentence where Atlantis is "bigger" is really saying "megos" which means "greater", not "bigger". A country can be greater than another without being bigger. Otherwise we must start calling Alexander the Great, Alexander the Bigger. But your point about the Africa and Asia as referred to by Plato, yes the Greeks had a very erroneous idea of how large either continent was, in fact most Greeks of Plato's time believed Europe was larger than either Asia or Africa, a false idea the Greeks only became aware of during Alexander's time (on how huge Asia truly is) or Ptolemy, for the immensity of Africa. Plato never says Atlantis was a continent.


RWLJ also wrote

You may fool or influence those that want to remain in the dark ages but you have no walls or ruins over there that tie in with Solomon’s Temple. You might have other things that he built when he was over there during his three years of travel.

I am not trying to "fool" anyone on anything. If you wish to cite Solomon's temple anywhere other than Jerusalem, then what ARE those ruins, and how do we explain the long record clearly tied to the Middle East?


RWLJ also wrote

I have seen many things that will bring about the rewriting of history. I know what I have seen to be real. Homer’s writings are real clear. It matches the Aztecs and the other histories and what I have personally seen for years at the site. He writes that Troy was on the lower part of Mount Olympus and that all of its foundations were dug up.

I have to respectfully disagree on how clear the poetry of Homer is; many statements in his Iliad and Odyssey are open to interpretation. One point however is pretty clear, that the mountain which is located so close to Troy was not called Olympus but mount Ida.


RWLJ also wrote

Just because someone was not smart enough and they thought that they had found Troy with its foundations in tacked in Turkey, does not mean it is there. They are trying to make what Alexander called new Troy a rebuilt first Troy. This is not according to the facts of history. It is very unlikely that someone rebuilt a city and call in New Troy. It would be about as foolish as to look for Old York under New York. It also contradicts Homer and the Dead Sea Scrolls.


It took Odysseus ten years to get back home. Their war was not fought across the channel between the Black Sea and the Mediterranean Sea.

I take it that you completely dismiss the work of Heinrich Schleimann, and the subsequent work done by many others, at the site in Turkey which fits Homer's description of Troy so well. If that is not Troy, then what is it?


RWLJ also wrote

You made a big deal in the past that Atlantis was not a continent. How much do you know that Plato knew? He may have been as mistaken in his interpretations about Atlantis, as you are about your interpretations of the whereabouts of the land of Joshua’s conquest. I can speak boldly with authority because I have seen many things that are for real that the world does not know about.

I made the point about Atlantis not being a continent because Plato never said it was - in fact he described it as a large ISLAND, with a plain only some 200 x 300 miles, and the total area of the island not even as large as Madagascar. Would you call Madagascar a continent? The statement he made about Atlantis being "greater" was in reference to their power, wealth and influence, clearly, hence their wars of conquest. You seem to dismiss the Old Testament account of Joshua out of hand, in which case then I must ask how do you explain the clear and complete description given in which tells us the route taken by the ancient Hebrews from Egypt, which term I use for modern familiarity rather than the Biblical Mizraim, which may not be familiar to some of our readers. Do you dismiss the description of the route as described? For our readers, here is a summation with sources at the end of each point:


"In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai. When they set out from Rephidim, they came to the wilderness of Sinai and camped in the wilderness; and there Israel camped in front of the mountain." Exodus 19:1-2
"They journeyed from Rephidim and camped in the wilderness of Sinai. They journeyed from the wilderness of Sinai and camped at Kibroth-hattaavah." Numbers 33:15-16
"which the Lord commanded Moses at Mount Sinai in the day that He commanded the sons of Israel to present their offerings to the Lord in the wilderness of Sinai." Leviticus 7:38
"Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the tent of meeting, on the first of the second month, in the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying," Numbers 1:1
"just as the Lord had commanded Moses. So he numbered them in the wilderness of Sinai." Numbers 1:19
"But Nadab and Abihu died before the Lord when they offered strange fire before the Lord in the wilderness of Sinai; and they had no children. So Eleazar and Ithamar served as priests in the lifetime of their father Aaron." Numbers 3:4
"Then the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, saying," Numbers 3:14
" Thus the Lord spoke to Moses in the wilderness of Sinai, in the first month of the second year after they had come out of the land of Egypt, saying," Numbers 9:1
"They observed the Passover in the first month, on the fourteenth day of the month, at twilight, in the wilderness of Sinai; according to all that the Lord had commanded Moses, so the sons of Israel did." Numbers 9:5
"and the sons of Israel set out on their journeys from the wilderness of Sinai. Then the cloud settled down in the wilderness of Paran." Numbers 10:12
"But among these there was not a man of those who were numbered by Moses and Aaron the priest, who numbered the sons of Israel in the wilderness of Sinai." Numbers 26:64


<Borrowed from The Exodus Route: Wilderness of Sinai which is essentially correct>


RWLJ also wrote

When can you show me the Troy on Mount Olympus? If you cannot show me first Troy on the first Mount Olympus, then you should be open minded so someone can show you the land of first Mount Olympus and first Troy. On second Troy you would not be able to show me any of the original gods and what they originally were.

Troy was not located on Mt Olympus, it was located at the foot of Mount Ida. Troy was destroyed and rebuilt several times over its history, seven times or more. The location was highly important strategically and as a trade route crossroads, which explains why it was not simply re-located elsewhere. As to the "original" gods, and what they really were, the evidence points to many of them being not gods at all originally but heroes and heroines of very human form, whom were accorded the honors of being a god after their deaths, as with Herakles, Ouranos, Ra, Isis, Horus and many others.


RWLJ also wrote

I could ask you hundreds of questions that you would not be able to answer in your own right. I have seen many people that can grab onto wild assumptions that hold water like a sieve.

I have no doubt there are a great many questions that I certainly do not know the answers to - I do not pretend to know it all about anything. I can agree that there are people whom will seize onto fantastical ideas and hold great faith in them with little reasoning or logic, and in cases like that it is almost pointless to try to reason with such persons.


RWLJ also wrote

The continent of Atlantis is bigger than Asia and Africa combined and that goes for both new Asia and Africa and old Asia and Africa. Asia means a she ass and Africa means the shadow of God. The continent of Atlantis is not to be confused with the island of Atlantis. The continent of Atlantis is America. The island of Atlantis is in the middle sea of the Ta land (Utah) the first Mediterranean, also known as the Atlantean sea or the sea of the right hand of God. It is called Lake Bonneville today. Maybe Plato was not able to give you history straighter because he did not known any better, like people today do not know much about real history. We have never fully come out of the Dark Ages of the uninformed leading the uninformed.

Plato wrote that Atlantis was "greater" than Asia and Africa combined, not larger then them. It is a very different meaning. If you compare what Plato wrote with the other ancient sources, it becomes clear that Atlantis was a large island with several other outlying islands in a group, seven to ten islands in all. If you say that America is where Atlantis was, then what about the rest of what Plato wrote, that from Atlantis you could sail on away from Europe to cross the ocean, and find a "true continent" that "rims the whole of the western ocean" which describes the Americas very well indeed. If America was Atlantis, then what "true continent" laid beyond it, that rimmed the entire ocean to the west? It simply won't work amigo.

RWLJ also wrote

White men did not understand the greater meaning when the Aztecs said that they came from the land of the rising sun. The white men interpreted it to mean east. His interpretation of that to mean east, is a confession of his own ignorance.

I suggest you re-read Cortez's account of his meeting with king Montezuma, if memory serves, it is in the letters to the king of Spain and available online. There was good reason why the Aztecs were SO shaken up by the appearance of the Spaniards on the Atlantic coast of Mexico.


RWLJ also wrote

Christ spoke in parables so the lesser would understand the lesser. The Aztecs would not have been excited about the Spanish understanding the original meanings, for obvious reasons.

The arrival of the Spanish coincided with an Aztec prophecy about the return of one of their most important gods, and in some senses that prophecy came true, as the practice of human sacrifice ended for example. Very little of the Aztec records survived the conquest.

RWLJ also wrote

John D. Lee, the so called Jacob Waltz who had worked and learned about Indian ways, pointed out and gave the people a true reflection of a place and many things that reflected the real place. He left a real parable in a manner that reflected some Indian ways. People colonized what we call the old world today. To these ancient colonizers the old world of today was their new world. They named things there after their Motherland and gave names to places that reflected the original places that they came from in one way or another.

The real Jacob Waltz can be well documented, and I have seen nothing to connect John D. Lee with Jacob Waltz of Phoenix, which is the one known as the Dutchman with the famous lost mine. As to the peoples of the Old World "colonizing" the New world, there is little record of this; Carthage attempted to plant one colony which was later withdrawn, the stories of prince Madog or Madoc the Welshman may be true, in which case the colonists vanished into the wilderness of America, Plutarch mentioned that "some Greeks" were living in America in his time, in the gulf of St Lawrence region, but did not explain if they were living as Greeks or if they had become "Indianized" by their intermarriages with Amerindians, at any rate they were probably just fishermen not building stone temples and cities. Even the lost Ten Tribes, which many have tried to link to various Amerindian tribes, are more likely to be found in Asia, Africa and Europe than in the Americas, but I won't say it is impossible either. As far as I know, there is no evidence of any large colonizing done by people from the Old World.


RWLJ also wrote

Oroblanco wrote

Jesus said, “Recognize what is in your sight, and that which is hidden from you will become plain to you. For there is nothing hidden which will not become manifest.” (Thomas gospel, 5)

That is a very good quote. I could show you many things that are within our sight today. I have posted some. There are many things within our sight that we could look at that leads to far greater things that are plain and self-evident. These things are for the honest and pure in heart that can come out of Babylon and its churches that have prostituted themselves. Too many are grabbing onto any wild assumption that comes along to support the false base they got from Babylon.


You make some wild assumptions about the Pharaoh at the time that Moses left the land of the Mizraims being Amosis. Neither Moses or the Israelites as a nation where ever in Egypt, over there at that time. Nor is it mentioned in the Old Testament of the Israelites ever seeing the great structures that are in Egypt. Moses led the children out of the land of Mizraim. Mizraim is in the western United States.

I must respectfully disagree, it is hardly a "wild assumption" that the actual Pharaoh of the Exodus being Amosis and not Rameses, and I am hardly the only person to reach that conclusion. I would suggest you research the matter. I would also point out that evidence linked to Hebrews in Egypt is being found, just that it does not make the evening news.


RWLJ also wrote

I am not going to touch on every little straw that you are holding onto to support your Babylonian premise. I can personally show you the travels of the Israelites and where their exodus came to a stop. There is much of their hand writing still there on the rocks.


You mention Biblical Archaeology Review. You need to read July/August 1996 vol. 22 #4 starting with page thirty. It makes it really clear that Joshua’s conquest did not take place in the Middle East. On page thirty six it shows a picture of a Merneptah Stele. Pharaoh Merneptah stated that Israel was laid waste. The Egyptians thought it was good that Israel had been laid waste by the Greeks. They may have even allied with the Greeks in bringing down Troy, the Israelite capital at the time. They were likely not to happy when the Israelites conquered their Motherland, the land of the Mizraims. There are many things in Biblical Archeology Review that discredits the conquest of Joshua having ever happened in the Middle East.


I would also suggest that you read The Bible Unearthed, by Israel Finkelstein and Neil Asher Silberman.

I have not read every single article published by the Biblical Archaeologica Review, nor would I agree with every single article. The reason I suggested it to you was that they have published some of the very interesting and recent findings in the Holy Land and Middle East, which confirm that the Old Testament history is true. Thank you for the book suggestion. More on Joshua and the conquest below.


RWLJ wrote

I do not know of one biblical archaeologist scholars, people of true scientist that supports a Joshua conquest in the Middle East.

While a good many in academia DO view the Old Testament, and New for that matter as a "collection of Hebrew fairy tales" as one pseudo-scholar put it, do you suppose that I am alone and made the statements just from my own findings? I could hardly take such credit. I will point you to one example:

In a word, in all material details and in date the fall of Jericho took place as described in the Biblical narrative. Our demonstration is limited, however, to material observations: the walls fell, shaken apparently by earthquake, and the city was destroyed by fire, about 1400 B.C. These are the basic facts resulting from our investigations. The link with Joshua and the Israelites is only circumstantial but it seems to be solid and without a flaw."10

<from https://www.biblearchaeology.org/po...-new-look-at-the-archaeological-evidence.aspx>


RWLJ also wrote

In reply to my Jericho post, you talk about some volcano by the name of Thera, Santorini erupting. I examined this story some time ago and recognized that they have come up with a little reality about volcanic activity during the time of Moses. Beyond that I could not give it much creditability it was based on assumptions upon assumptions. True Mount Sinai was a volcano that created a cloud by day and a fire by night. Moses set up boundaries lest the fire break out and kill them. He kept the people away from it until it blew its trumpet really hard. When you get into the real land of Joshua you find that real biblical history fits really well.


You try to identify the Hyk-sos that over ran Egypt as if they were the true Israelites. I have heard this story before and it does not carry any legitimate weight. First place there were seventy Israelites that went down into the land of Mizraim not Egypt. Egypt is an alteration of the Old Testament text. The Ten Commandments in stone in Los Lunas, New Mexico says they were lead out of the land of Mizraim. While Joseph ruled under a Pharaoh the Israelites never dominated the Motherland of Mizraim. However it is highly likely that when the Mizraim army went down in the red sea or the sea of Eden here in Utah that it opened the doors for the Hyk-sos to take that land when the Mizraim army fell in this land.

Again, I am hardly the first person to reach the conclusion that the Hyksos people recorded by the Egyptians, are one and the same with the Hebrews, in fact one inscription even calls the Hyksos by an alternate name - israel. It would be false if I tried to claim the credit. Simcha Jacobovici presented the case very well, which was made into a television documentary titled The Exodus Decoded. If you dismiss this in favor of Utah, then how do we explain the Egyptian records, not to mention the many other sources from antiquity? Who or whom do you say, was living in Palestine, circa 1000 BC, if not the Hebrews and Philistines and what ever Canaanites remained? By the way, Mizraim was Egypt. I am sorry but I can not agree with your theory so far. To further support that the pharaoh was indeed Amosis, here is a quote


FROM PTOLEMAEUS MENDESIUS.


"Amosis, who lived about the same time with Inachus the Argive (i.e., the king of Argos), overthrew the city of Avaris, as Ptolemaeus Mendesius has related in his chronicle."―Extracted from the Stromata of Clemens, Bishop of Alexandria, quoted by Eusebius, Praep. Evang., Book x.


As you know, Avaris was the capital city of the Hyksos in Egypt, and I would point out that many online sites spell Amosis as Ahmose.


FROM DIODORUS SICULUS.


"There having arisen in former days a pestiferous disease in Egypt, the multitude attributed the cause of the evil to the Deity; for a very great concourse of foreigners of every nation then dwelt in Egypt, who were addicted to strange rites in their worship and sacrifices; so that, in consequence, the due honours of the gods fell into disuse. Whence the native inhabitants of the land inferred, that unless they removed them, there would never be an end of their distresses. They immediately, therefore, expelled these foreigners; the most illustrious and able of whom passed over in a body, (as some say), into Greece, and other places, under the conduct of celebrated leaders, of whom the most renowned were Danaus, and Cadmus. But a large body of the people went forth into the country which is now called Judea, situated not far distant from Egypt, being altogether desert in those times. The leader of this colony was Moses, a man very remarkable for his great wisdom and valour. When he had taken possession of the land, among other cities, he founded that which is called Jerusalem, which is now the most celebrated."―Extracted from Book xl. Ecl. i, p. 921.


That version is very much what we might expect it to be, as seen from the Egyptian perspective concerning the Hebrews and their exodus.

RWLJ also wrote

Oroblanco, I am sorry but I have one advantage over you. I have history that did not come through the nations that made up the image of Babylon. It is untainted by Babylon. We have carved writing that is dated to be five thousand years old. I have seen Exodus stories, one that was black with desert varnish that is older than anything that ties with Hebrew writing in the Middle East. That story is written right where the Exodus story came to an end under Joshua.

I would point out to you that our history was hardly "tainted" by Babylon, when the writing system used by the Chaldaeans, Assyrians, Hittites and others were not even able to be read until fairly recent times (in the last two centuries great progress was made in deciphering the ancient cuneiform writing system) or if you mean Rome as "Babylon" it is good to keep in mind that Rome did not write ancient history and could not control ALL historians even in the darkest of Dark Ages.


RWLJ also wrote

How are you going to look and what are you going to say when you have to confront the records in the library that is in the area of the Tree of Life? Even Adam in his day was not allowed to partake of in his day.

While I am like many people in that I don't like to look the fool, I also have NO problems in admitting when I am wrong, nor am I incapable of changing my mind, when the evidence provides reason enough. I would ask where it says there is a "library" in the area of the "Tree of Life" however, from all I can recall there is no mention of any library in the garden of Eden? Thank you in advance.


RWLJ wrote

On the Molina Map it marks that place of the Temple and say ancient library in Spanish. They are looking for that place in the Grand Canyon. Those that want to believe in what came through Babylon can keep on looking there. Those that want to believe it is in the Superstitious Mountains should keep on looking there. That goes for the Tucson area or West Texas or those that are looking for Solomon’s Mines which were once called the Tayopa Mines in northern Mexico. Likewise they should keep on looking where they think they are at. They have a right to waste their own money and time.

Most historians dismiss the Molina documents as forgeries; even if authentic, by the information it contains, it applies to a Spanish mission in the American southwest and several mines associated with the mission, not what you have inferred. A side point here but the Dutchman mine is alleged to be in the Superstition mountains, not the Superstitious mountains which is memory serves are located in California, not a major point however. You are the first person I know of to associate king Solomon's mines with Tayopa however.


RWLJ also wrote

You once tried to correct me when I referred to a place that was called the heart. You corrected me and said it meant white. I told you that I already knew that that was its first meaning. There have already been two men that have posted on this site that I told the first meaning of its name before I ever met you.


There are many people that are a witness to a bigger story of things, then what I have shown on this site. If anyone is really seeking truth then they should search all new things and not make assumption based on Babylonian confusion.

I do not recall the incident/correction you refer to, however if it was offensive then my apologies as no offense was intended.


RWLJ also wrote

I will not always have time to speedily answer every question out there. People should recognize it is not always wise to judge new things by their old paradigm. In general people are in a channel or chain of believes that appear more logical to them. There are just a few that have the strength to reexamine and give up all their established premises. If we are going to win, we have to examine all of our foundations or premises that we have built on with the new evidence of things and let the cream or the truth rise to the top.

We all have our education as our foundation to our thinking, to ignore it completely is not possible for most people. It would take very strong evidence that this foundation was thoroughly wrong, and I for one have not seen such strong evidence. On a few points, like the Isolation theory, yes our historical teachings are deeply flawed, but even in this issue some progress is being made to correct the record. I do not expect you or anyone to rush to answer me, and hope for the same consideration in return, for I too have limited time to be on the internet.


RWLJ also wrote

I have noticed in many debates that the ones that have the weaker platform start throwing in any kind of flak to avoid the truth. They also throw flak because they did not want to hear the other side or they do it to throw their opposition off by overwhelming him with a lot of flak.


Even when we have facts on our side it is comforting to see testimonies that support our premise. We need to not feel bad when we lose. The truth is more important than any one person or their ego. I would rather lose and gain the truth then win with falsehoods and destroy my future. So one again look at the greater knowledge of new discoveries, they can prevent us from being wrong or making fools of ourselves. Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.


I myself at least in times past was more interested in being a live coward then a dead hero. This is my way of showing a smile face.


I invite you all to look before you jump out on a limb. The new discoveries will bring about a marvelous work and a wonder, as it says in Isiah 29. In part the fulfillment of where you quote Jesus.

I have not been "throwing out flak" but attempting to point out several problems with your theory and approach. New discoveries are made every day, most of which tend to reinforce the story of our history.


RWLJ also wrote

Let us all take our time and build on a sure foundation. Let us be slow to judge all things without first looking at all things.


Why would people rush to judgments when they know little or nothing about new great discoveries? Only a poor or corrupt judge would judge a situation without looking at both sides of the story. We have a lot more history and facts here then they have in the Middle East and it is much older. The challenge is to investigate. Again condemnation without investigation is ignorance on the war path.


R. W.

You seem to think that we are "rushing to judgement" about your theories, which is hardly the case. You have presented it in some detail, and for some of us at least, there are problems which I cannot reconcile. For example, if Atlantis were really located in Lake Bonneville, then where was the Athens which fought a war with them? And more - if truly Atlantis were in Lake Bonneville, most of it would be dry land today, and should be fairly easy to start finding the ruins. What about Plato, Plutarch, Strabo and the other ancient sources we have on Atlantis - if it really occurred in Utah, then how on Earth did the Egyptians learn of it to tell the story to Solon? What about Plato's description of the location of Atlantis, that there was a huge continent located west of it rimming the whole of the ocean - if Atlantis were in Utah region, what farther continent could there be to rim the whole of the ocean? To me, these are insurmountable problems which cannot be resolved by mere debate, we need to have solid evidence to fill in all the gaps or at least, some good explanations.


I have not condemned your theories nor you, in fact I have been trying to be respectful, just that I can not agree with your theories on Atlantis, the Patriarchs, the Holy land and several other aspects. I fear that we will not get anywhere in our discussion for we are poles apart, however thank you for your time and for the debate, it has been most interesting.

Good luck and good hunting to you Wes, I hope you find the treasures that you seek, and that goes for all whom are reading this.
Roy ~ Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Geeze Oro, does that mean that we have King Solomon's mines?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Geeze Oro, does that mean that we have King Solomon's mines?

Don Jose de La Mancha

LOL!

 

[markmar]

Don Jose

Maybe YOU have the king Solomon's mines . The Tayopa mines were in the possession of many kings over the centuries and maybe the milleniums .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Gentlemen: I frankly cannot see why such a fuss -We were given simple, but complete information as to where we would find Atlantis, An ancient, giant Caldera, Island kingdom off of the coast of present Spain, which was situated on the apex of three or more continental plates which was subjected to a violent sudsidence with the possible exception of the Azores.

So where is the problem

Do we really need theorizing as to it's political structure?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

... So where is the problem ...

No proof. The Plato thingy is fun, but way too thin to rely on.

We need ruins, inscriptions, artifacts, corroborating accounts containing specifics, documented history, eyewitness memoirs, and contemporary maps.

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen: I frankly cannot see why such a fuss -We were given simple, but complete information as to where we would find Atlantis, An ancient, giant Caldera, Island kingdom off of the coast of present Spain, which was situated on the apex of three or more continental plates which was subjected to a violent sudsidence with the possible exception of the Azores. So where is the problem Do we really need theorizing as to it's political structure? Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

IMHO, It is exactly because of Plato's detailed "retelling" of the story of Atlantis that we need to question every aspect of the tale. That would include, of course, its political structure. Because of the era of the story, we need more evidence to support the possibility that it is anything but fiction.

Right now, despite the many, many claims of "Atlantis found", they have all fallen short of any convincing evidence. Arguments for its existence are based on emotion and imagination, rather than facts and science.

"Atlantis: Fact or Fiction" presents a pretty good case.

Take care,

Joe