Atlantis

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

Your quote is slightly different than mine, thus making you the one who has misquoted..... It may be that my sources have misquoted the original, but maybe not.

I don't think my not believing Plato's story of Atlantis is illogical or without substance. Plato's stories were about ideal places and societies, much like Disney World. They were not from the real world but were created out of Plato's ideas of the perfect place, much like Walt's.

I believe the story of Atlantis was a continuation of Plato's "The Republic."

My quote was not directly from Aristotle, but from a number of writers who claimed to be quoting him. Perhaps they are in error. There were many who believed the Atlantis story was a creation of Plato's imagination.....from that era.

On the other hand, I believe you are correct on where the quote came from.

Take care,

Joe

Your sources ARE in error, someone along the pipeline of commentary mis-quoted Strabo, inserting Aristotle and changing the meaning which was actually in reference to a wall build by the Achaean Greeks, across the isthmus of Pelopponesia, which was told of by "the poet" Homer. Aristotle left us no written opinion about Atlantis, as far as I know, have read all of his works that I could lay hands on and there is no reference to it. That misquote from Aristotle has been in publication by a number of sources (both pro and against Atlantis) and all getting it wrong by simply not checking the actual source which was Strabo, and quoting Posidonius not Aristotle. And Posidonius did believe Atlantis was more than a fiction, which is why he did not make a statement like that "he whom invented it destroyed it" sort of response as was cast at Homer for the mythical wall of the Achaeans. Anyway not to get carried away on it, that false quote is in a good many books today.

I also understand your stance on Atlantis, and find it to be un-convincing. How can one say that Atlantis is invention, but if a spade turns up the evidence that it was real then I reserve the right to change my mind? Either it is invention, or you are among those whom can not rule it out.

Don Jose' - have to take exception with you as well, for those interesting 800,000 year old footprints found in Britain. Geologists state that the islands were fully covered in glacier during the last Ice Age, so any humans hanging around since 800,000 years ago, would have had to find new digs or die.

Roy

PS one other thing on Aristotle - I highly recommend his book "On Marvelous Things Heard" which some scholars say that Aristotle never wrote, but has some very interesting information!

 

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[Loke]

Don Jose' - have to take exception with you as well, for those interesting 800,000 year old footprints found in Britain. Geologists state that the islands were fully covered in glacier during the last Ice Age, so any humans hanging around since 800,000 years ago, would have had to find new digs or die.

I seem to recall that the ice-ages come in 11000-year cycles - so who know what is was like 800,000 years ago?

To quote one of the passages in the article linked to (Scientists find 800,000-year-old footprints in UK)

Ashton said the footprints are between 800,000 — "as a conservative estimate" — and 1 million years old, at least 100,000 years older than scientists' earlier estimate of the first human habitation in Britain. That's significant because 700,000 years ago, Britain had a warm, Mediterranean-style climate. The earlier period was much colder, similar to modern-day Scandinavia.

[edit]
Guess I didn't read the _whole_ article before I posted the passage from it ... here comes the last sentence:

The footprints themselves, which survived for almost 1 million years, won't be there. Two weeks after they were uncovered, North Sea tides had washed them away.

OK - so the footprints where in 'sandy' material? - washed away by the sea? And they could tell it was 800,000 years old?
This kinda defies any kind of logic!

 

[Oroblanco]

More on Aristotle - apparently others have looked into this as well, here is an extract:

[h=1]Aristotle and Atlantis (N)[/h]Published December 11, 2012
Aristotle and Atlantis [880] is an English translation of Thorwald C. Franke’s book, Aristoteles und Atlantis published in German in 2010. From the beginning the author makes it clear that this monograph is not concerned with debating the existence of Atlantis but is focussed on how Aristotle viewed Plato’s Atlantis.
When I began my own research the prevailing understanding was that Aristotle had rejected the story of Atlantis as an invention. Franke’s study has turned this idea completely on its head, clearly demonstrating that there is implicit evidence that Aristotle was “rather inclined towards the existence of Atlantis”. However, he goes further and forensically demolishes the idea that the two passages in Strabo’s Geographica (2.3.6.& 13.1.36) were quotations from Aristotle and even if they had been, they were references to Homer not Plato.


Perhaps even more important is Franke’s revelation of how the prevailing attitude regarding Aristotle’s opinion of the Atlantis story arose. He has carried out extensive research that brought him back to 1587 when a commentary on Strabo by Isaac Casaubon was published, which in turn was badly misinterpreted in 1816 by Jean Baptiste Joseph Delambre who attributed a critical comment by Aristotle regarding Homer’s Achaean wall in the Illiad to be instead a reference to Plato’s Atlantis. This had far-reaching consequences as Delambre’s book was probably more generally available than Casaubon’s, resulting in Delambre’s error being widely disseminated and so in time his misinterpretation gained sufficient critical mass to become ‘received wisdom’.
If the work of one person, Delambre, initiated nearly two centuries of misinformation, I hope that another individual, Thorwald C. Franke, can now begin to redress that situation.


This book is a ‘must read’ for anyone interested in a serious study of the Atlantis question.

- See more at: Aristotle and Atlantis (N) | Atlantipedia

That statement about the book being a "must read" is that person's opinion, I have not read it. However it looks like Delambre's mis-translation occurred well back there, leading to centuries of misquotes and misunderstandings. This should not be taken as an argument NOT to read Aristotle, quite the opposite, I think most people would very much enjoy his works. In fact Aristotle made some statements which could be taken as in support of Atlantis being a reality, as his saying that the Atlantic ocean is shallow due to the mud, which other ancient authors linked to the subsidence of Atlantis.

I am convinced that some of the evidence of Atlantis has already been found and has not been correctly identified. There is also one item directly from Atlantis as well, but I won't share that in public - if you look you will find what I am referring to. As to looking to the Egyptians for the origins of the tale, there is evidence right in Plato's text to point you to the correct source, and it is not Egypt but the Phoenicians. Also one other thing (mainly for our readers) but if you search online you can find several sites which show the Atlantic ocean with the sea levels lower than today, as they were 11,000 years ago, and there are a number of now-submerged islands which were dry land at that time.

On the people in Britain before the last Ice Age, I do not have an issue with it, only that they almost certainly did not remain there continuously. The footprints being "washed away" are certainly puzzling though, if they were in wet sand how did they get that age calculated? Would footprints remain in soft sand that long?

Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy and Don Jose,

My major problem with Plato's story of Atlantis is fitting it into the Paleolithictime slot. Are you both comfortable with that time for the existence of of a fully developed Atlantis?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy and Don Jose,

My major problem with Plato's story of Atlantis is fitting it into the Paleolithictime slot. Are you both comfortable with that time for the existence of of a fully developed Atlantis?

Take care,

Joe

That depends on how you define "fully developed" doesn't it?


Clearly there were civilizations existing in the time of Atlantis, though not with triremes and chariots as far as we know. Fortunately it is not necessary to take every detail of the story as literal, we can compare Plato to the other sources which are admittedly brief, but while they affirm the basic story, do not contain such things as advanced plumbing, triremes or chariots. When we consider that Plutarch specifically accused Plato of embellishment of what was already a remarkable story, I think it is safe to ignore the anachronisms.


In fact, we can take the story of Atlantis and exclude Plato completely, and you are still left with a powerful seafaring empire that existed in the Atlantic islands, which was destroyed quickly leaving us with a legend, and coincidentally matches up with what geologists and climatologists are now telling us about the ending of the last Ice Age.


We just went over Strabo the geographer's comments on Atlantis, or one of them I should say (there is one other passage) but this is not our only ancient source; Proclus wrote in the 3rd century AD

As for the whole of this account of the Atlanteans, some say that it is unadorned history, such as Crantor, the first commentator on Plato. Crantor also says that Plato's contemporaries used to criticize him jokingly for not being the inventor of his Republic but copying the institutions of the Egyptians. Plato took these critics seriously enough to assign to the Egyptians this story about the Athenians and Atlanteans, so as to make them say that the Athenians really once lived according to that system. He adds, that this is testified by the prophets of the Egyptians, who assert that these particulars [which are narrated by Plato] are written on pillars which are still preserved."


That an island of such nature and size once existed is evident from what is said by certain authors who investigated the things around the outer sea. For according to them, there were seven islands in that sea in their time, sacred to Persephone, and also three others of enormous size, one of which was sacred to Hades, another to Ammon, and another one between them to Poseidon, the extent of which was a thousand stadia [200 km]; and the inhabitants of it—they add—preserved the remembrance from their ancestors of the immeasurably large island of Atlantis which had really existed there and which for many ages had reigned over all islands in the Atlantic sea and which itself had like-wise been sacred to Poseidon. Now these things Marcellus has written in his Aethiopica"

<from Commentaries, Proclus>


As this is already getting pretty long winded will close here, but note that there has been NO mention of any chariots, no triremes, no fancy plumbing, and no metal-plated walls or for that matter, massive canals in rings. Still a remarkable story however IMHO and I see nothing which is impossible for the Paleolithic period, which was the time of the birth of our agriculture, livestock husbandry, and dwelling in cities.


Good luck and good hunting, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY Cactusjumper!
Roy

 

[cactusjumper]

That depends on how you define "fully developed" doesn't it?


Clearly there were civilizations existing in the time of Atlantis, though not with triremes and chariots as far as we know. Fortunately it is not necessary to take every detail of the story as literal, we can compare Plato to the other sources which are admittedly brief, but while they affirm the basic story, do not contain such things as advanced plumbing, triremes or chariots. When we consider that Plutarch specifically accused Plato of embellishment of what was already a remarkable story, I think it is safe to ignore the anachronisms.


In fact, we can take the story of Atlantis and exclude Plato completely, and you are still left with a powerful seafaring empire that existed in the Atlantic islands, which was destroyed quickly leaving us with a legend, and coincidentally matches up with what geologists and climatologists are now telling us about the ending of the last Ice Age.


We just went over Strabo the geographer's comments on Atlantis, or one of them I should say (there is one other passage) but this is not our only ancient source; Proclus wrote in the 3rd century AD


<from Commentaries, Proclus>


As this is already getting pretty long winded will close here, but note that there has been NO mention of any chariots, no triremes, no fancy plumbing, and no metal-plated walls or for that matter, massive canals in rings. Still a remarkable story however IMHO and I see nothing which is impossible for the Paleolithic period, which was the time of the birth of our agriculture, livestock husbandry, and dwelling in cities.


Good luck and good hunting, and HAPPY BIRTHDAY Cactusjumper!
Roy

Good Morning Roy,

Thank you for the good wishes......

Not long ago you asked me: "How many changes to Plato's story are you willing to accept, to make a site fit? (As for example, Crete)"

With that comment, I believe I am more willing to accept Plato's story, as he wrote it than you are. Are you willing to accept the era of Plato's Atlantis, or would you change the date. Can you name another people who were as advanced as Atlantis and in the same era? In my reading, Santorini and Crete match up very closely to what Plato wrote, save the era.

All that I have read of Proclus was that he was a philosopher. Was Plato writing as a philosopher or a historian? Did Proclus ever write true history? In that respect both men seem to have been cut from the same cloth.....so to speak.

"As this is already getting pretty long winded will close here, but note that there has been NO mention of any chariots, no triremes, no fancy plumbing, and no metal-plated walls or for that matter, massive canals in rings. Still a remarkable story however IMHO and I see nothing which is impossible for the Paleolithic period, which was the time of the birth of our agriculture, livestock husbandry, and dwelling in cities."

True, but that birth was in its infancy. While nothing is impossible, there's not one thing that gives any hope that such wonders were, indeed, taking place in Paleolithic times. IMHO, you need to.....adjust Plato's story to make it fit into a proper era. Not only do you need an advanced civilization on Atlantis, but you would need to find another such place with the knowledge and power to defeat it at that time. When did Athens reach that level?

On the other hand, it's a great subject to discuss. I need the mental exercise.

Take care and keep warm,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Joe ya steak thieving bum. Bend over, I have my paddle--it should be good for the 100 misc whops required for your birthday..


Regarding OOP artifacts,how do you explain them, Using our present knowledge of the human race evolvement

El Roy --> I am convinced that some of the evidence of Atlantis has already been found and has not been correctly identified. There is also one item directly from Atlantis as well, but I won't share that in public

Can you explain why in your remnant islands etc, they themselves make no mention of calling themselves anything similar to Atlantis??

Don Jose de La Mancha

p.s.Roy --> In fact, we can take the story of Atlantis and exclude Plato completely, and you are still left with a powerful seafaring empire that existed in the Atlantic islands, which was destroyed quickly leaving us with a legend, and coincidentally matches up with what geologists and climatologists are now telling us about the ending of the last Ice Age

p.p.s.-->- ' that coincidentally fits that area today and called it Atlantis? ?

p.p.p.s. 100% completely healthy, according to the Tucson VA. Good for the next 70 years.

 

[kanabite]

just wanted you guys to know how much i enjoy reading your posts , even when your just going at each other in your usual loving manner keep up the good work mi amigos !!!!!

 

[Oroblanco]

Better grab a refill of that coffee NOW

Cactusjumper wrote

Good Morning Roy,


Thank you for the good wishes......


Not long ago you asked me: "How many changes to Plato's story are you willing to accept, to make a site fit? (As for example, Crete)"


With that comment, I believe I am more willing to accept Plato's story, as he wrote it than you are. Are you willing to accept the era of Plato's Atlantis, or would you change the date. Can you name another people who were as advanced as Atlantis and in the same era? In my reading, Santorini and Crete match up very closely to what Plato wrote, save the era.

You appear to be "locked" with your own concept of what Atlantis has to be, which is not likely to be what the reality was. Your Atlantis has to have all the trappings of an advanced culture as described, ignoring the fact that NO other ancient sources on Atlantis or the Titans mention them, and these features (like the triremes) have the hallmarks of anachronistic confabulation - Plato projecting the same high technology items of his own day into the past, which is fairly common among medeival sources.


You have also seemingly ignored the problems with identifying the Minoans with Atlantis - the issues do not end with the era. There is no way to adapt the clear references to the Atlantic Ocean as the location of Atlantis, which all other ancient sources confirm, even trying to fit alternate "pillars of Herakles" instead of the strait clearly indicated by Plato. Are there hot and cold springs of water on Crete? What about elephants? Is there a plain two hundred miles long by 300 miles wide? Did the island submerge beneath the sea, leaving shallows that were a hindrance for shipping? Even at Thera, the gaping hole left by the eruption of the volcano is hardly shallow, it is very deep and very steep sided.

We could go on with the issues of trying to fit the Minoans but I fail to see how one can overcome the basics like the location, the era, the sheer size or the presence of elephants, not to mention that the Minoan civilization did not disappear in a "day and a night" but lasted a century after the eruption of Santorini. This besides the fact that the Minoans were known to the Greeks, Plato's audience would hardly fail to recognize this.


As to my own approach, all I am doing is taking into consideration what Plutarch wrote, and others also repeated, not that Plato invented the tale but that he embellished it with fancy estates and things which never existed; there are other ancient sources and none of them include those anachronistic features like triremes and chariots. If this seems unreasonable to you, perhaps it is due to your own view being so intimately linked to those fantastical things like the giant canals or metal plated walls, the very things Plutarch is hinting at are pure embellishments?


Now as to your questions:


Yes I am perfectly willing to accept Plato's assigned date, or about 11,500 years ago (give or take a bit, I don't expect to restrain it to a specific year).


I am not aware of any other civilization that was as advanced as the one Plato describes in that time period, but thankfully we are not forced to look for a lost empire only by his description, there are other sources and these are vague enough that it is probable that more than one civilization was existing or co-existing at the very same time as Atlantis and as advanced as they. However my definition of "civilization" is probably not the same as yours. Damascus and Jericho were probably among the cities existing of Atlantis' time, among others.

Cactusjumper also wrote

All that I have read of Proclus was that he was a philosopher. Was Plato writing as a philosopher or a historian? Did Proclus ever write true history? In that respect both men seem to have been cut from the same cloth.....so to speak.

Um - is it a mark against a text as an history, if authored by a philosopher? Proclus' works are mainly commentaries, which in my opinion does not cast a shadow upon them for content. For that matter, Philo Judaeus of Alexandria, oh heck here is a site with a list of ancient sources on Atlantis:
Ancient sources of the Atlantis story

I would point out that few ancient historians wrote history purely as a narrative of events, without at least expressing personal opinions within it.

As to the war between the Athenians and Atlantians - again do not make the mistake of casting modern concepts onto ancient events; the Athenians were "leaders" of an "alliance" not the only people fighting against the conquerors, and we can not even be sure that they had a true city, much less any of the trappings of a civilization. A barbaric tribal people CAN overcome and defeat a more advanced, "civilized" people in warfare. Plato's description is vague on this "battle" so just how big a battle was it? Was it a thousand tribal warriors, ranged against a phalanx of Atlantians, or more, or less? We simply don't know, and it is treading off onto thin air to speculate about what actual event Plato was trying to describe.


Cactusjumper also wrote

True, but that birth was in its infancy. While nothing is impossible, there's not one thing that gives any hope that such wonders were, indeed, taking place in Paleolithic times. IMHO, you need to.....adjust Plato's story to make it fit into a proper era. Not only do you need an advanced civilization on Atlantis, but you would need to find another such place with the knowledge and power to defeat it at that time. When did Athens reach that level?


On the other hand, it's a great subject to discuss. I need the mental exercise.


Take care and keep warm,


Joe

Part of that was covered in the previous paragraph - but you are ignoring Plutarch and keeping all those embellishments, then insisting that we find an Atlantian empire and a matching one in Athens, which never existed. Athens rose to power and prominence as an advanced state after the war with Persia (about 480 BC) and by then the Minoans were long gone. May I ask why you dismiss Plutarch, and by extension, Solon, as well as the rest of the ancient sources on Atlantis which do not include the advanced technologies? Is it so that we will always end up with NO Atlantis, because THAT Atlantis never did exist and you already know that? Or do you want someone to try to argue that it did?


As to the agriculture and state of domestication of livestock, I must respectfully disagree. Yes our modern historians state that period (Atlantis, end of the Ice Age) was the beginnings of agriculture, but this is based only on what evidence they have found, and certainly does not include ALL evidence of agriculture. Even at that, our historians are constantly pushing back the dates for the first domestications of various types of livestock (look up the recent discovery of horse domestication in Arabia for example) as new evidence is discovered. The fact that other peoples besides the Atlantians were starting to farm and raise livestock, means that it is entirely possible that a lost culture (Atlantis) was well ahead of their neighbors at the time, and in fact it may even be a clue supporting the reality of Atlantis, for these "first" farmers may well have been trying to imitate what they saw (and-or heard) about in Atlantis!


Don Jose, el Tropical Tramp wrote

Can you explain why in your remnant islands etc, they themselves make no mention of calling themselves anything similar to Atlantis??

I must respectfully disagree on this point amigo, you will find that Herodotus and several other ancient geographers mention not one but several different peoples whom were all calling themselves either Atlantians and/or Titans/Tityans, at least as late as the first century AD. The fact that this memory of identity became lost over time, and is not preserved by later generations whom suffered invasions, conquest, famines etc and also lost the art of writing, is no surprise nor does it disprove their ancestry. The Atlas mountains of northwestern Africa too, reflect the former empire.


Don Jose de la Mancha also wrote

p.s.Roy --> In fact, we can take the story of Atlantis and exclude Plato completely, and you are still left with a powerful seafaring empire that existed in the Atlantic islands, which was destroyed quickly leaving us with a legend, and coincidentally matches up with what geologists and climatologists are now telling us about the ending of the last Ice Age


p.p.s.-->- ' that coincidentally fits that area today and called it Atlantis? ?

The area you refer to, may or may not be the correct site for Atlantis. There are other locations which may well be a better fit. If we had proof of mass subsidence in that area, then....?


Don Jose, Dueno el Tayopa also wrote

p.p.p.s. 100% completely healthy, according to the Tucson VA. Good for the next 70 years.

Finally! Some GOOD NEWS for a change! Two thumbs up amigo, and an extra cup of sock coffee for you!


Good luck and good hunting amigos, and to everyone, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Hi Roy,

I see.......We only quote Plato when it's convenient to our argument.

I believe it's well known that the early recorders of fantastic stories/civilizations often located them outside the Pillars of Hercules.......in the unexplored and feared waters of the Atlantic. Who, in those days, could argue the reality of such places, especially when it had been 9000 years since it had disappeared without a trace?

If you are going to reduce Atlantis to the level of ancient Jericho, I would have to agree that such a place could have once existed. It seems to me, the longer we discuss Atlantis, the closer you get to my conclusions.

I don't believe the tribes you mentioned, for that era, were organized to the point where they would gather together in large numbers to defend or invade another people.

It would seem that you may believe that Plato made up most of the details of his story. If that is so, we would be in agreement.

"The area you refer to, may or may not be the correct site for Atlantis. There are other locations which may well be a better fit. If we had proof of mass subsidence in that area, then....?"

We have no evidence, that I know of, that this "mass subsidence" ever took place. It seems possible that such an event was made up, like the bulk of Plato's story. It seems to me, that you would have to go with the precedent that the, mostly, fictional part of the story has created.

The physical evidence that is found on Thera and Crete, makes for some compelling arguments that they are the source for Plato's story. As in all things of PLato, it's the idea rather than the reality, which provide the impetus for his stories. In that respect, it's why so many people want to believe in Atlantis.

Take care, my friend,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

El Jose de La LDM , posted--->it's the idea rather than the reality, which provide the impetus for his stories. In that respect, it's why so many people want to believe in Atlantis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And why not? As a kiddie i wanted to believe in the Illiad, and lo & behold it WAS true.

Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

El Jose de La LDM , posted--->it's the idea rather than the reality, which provide the impetus for his stories. In that respect, it's why so many people want to believe in Atlantis.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

And why not? As a kiddie i wanted to believe in the Illiad, and lo & behold it WAS true.

Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

How true. We also believed in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

Couple of questions......What do you expect to find at that 12000' depth? Do you think such a large continent could sink that far and not leave some kind of evidence on the ocean floor?

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose,

How true. We also believed in Santa Clause and the Easter Bunny.

Take care,

Joe

What? Are you now implying that there is NO Santa Claus? Before you answer that - remember this IS a Family Oriented site!

Actually the farther we argue this, the farther it seems we are apart. I do not hold that Plato's advanced civilization was impossible for 9500 BC. I believe that he "grafted" anachronistic features onto the basic story, borrowing from not one but two sources, the Minoans and Mycenaeans for one, the other is a little more cryptic but you can figure it out from his very specific description of the main island of Atlantis itself - complete with hot springs, cliffs etc. This island he described was one he knew still existed, and it was not located in the Mediterranean.

The problems with the Minoans as Atlantis are too numerous to go into great detail here but besides what we have already touched on, what about the name of the main island, Crete? Would it not make sense for that island to be known by a name similar to Atlantis, or Titans? Instead, we find that it was known to the Hebrews as Caphtor, to the Egyptians as Keftiu, and to the Akkadians it was called Kap-ta-ra. None of these names are very close to Atlantis, or Atalantes as Philo referred to it, nor Aztlan or Attales or Titans.

Then what about that war between Atlantis and the alliance led by Athens? The only evidence of a war between the Minoans and Greeks occurred AFTER their volcanic cataclysm, and was a case of the Greeks invading Crete, not the Minoans invading mainland Greece. Does that fit with Plato? There is also evidence that the slaves of the Minoans rose in revolt, emigrating to Palestine at the same time that the Hebrews were departing Egypt.

I have no problem seeing that Plato had borrowed some elements of his story of Atlantis from the Minoans, but clearly it is not Atlantis, just a source for some fantastic embellishments for his story, which may or may not have been in the original viz Solon or the pillars seen by Crates. From the text itself, we can also extract that he was borrowing the physical description of the island as well, though not from the Minoans.

And yes my theory would be that a real Atlantis, existing circa 9,500 BC, would have been only slightly more advanced than Jericho or Damascus; probably they had domesticated livestock as livestock herding was developed before actual farming, but they may also have been farming, certainly they were fishing and were seafarers, though their "ships" are more likely to have been similar to the penteconters of the time of Troy than the triremes of 350 BC, or even smaller. They may have been rather simple dugout canoes with outriggers, as we can see exemplified in the ancient Polynesian models. This may seem "primitive" but is very far advanced from log rafts, and capable of crossing open oceans while carrying cargo and passengers, even livestock and farm plants as proven by the Polynesians. The real Atlantians may not have even had any metal tools or weapons, which may strike you as TOO primitive, yet even peoples with simple stone tools can become quite advanced, as we can see in the Aztecs, Mayans, and Incas, all of whom were basically still stone-age civilizations (they had metals but most of their tools and weapons were stone, bone and wood) and these cultures had developed advanced mathematics, astrological knowledge, irrigation and even canals, as well as impressive and beautiful cities.

Have you considered that a real Atlantis could have been much more like the Aztecs, than like Athens? I am convinced this is the truth behind the story of Atlantis.

A side note here but my reply about the massive subsidence was in reply to Don Jose' as he was hinting at his site located along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge, which is a very active area due to the crust expanding. That particular area certainly is interesting, and there are bits of evidence to support that a land mass did once exist there above sea level, and as far as there being no record of a massive subsidence there, that statement is in itself misleading. It implies that geologists have studied it in great detail and found no evidence, when the truth is that region is NOT very well studied and comparatively little is known of its geological history. In point of fact, there have been massive subsidences of the Earth's crust, often directly due to, or somehow related to large earthquakes which occurred at the time of the subsidence. We have listed some known examples, and there are massive uplifts of land too due to earthquakes. We simply can not say with any certainty that we KNOW whether there have been, or have not been large subsidences in that area of the Atlantic Ridge. It is certainly possible.

Consider this - a recent discovery of a sunken landscape, now 1.2 miles under water, which was once well above sea level, and sunk due to massive subsidence - and located in the Atlantic! Here is an extract from the article:

They believe that the landscape rose up and subsided within 2.5 million years due to the Icelandic Plume - an upwelling of material through Earth's mantle beneath the North Atlantic Ocean.
This functions by carrying hot magma from deep within Earth to just below the surface, where it ripples outwards.
Dr White said the landscape was probably swept beneath the Atlantic during this magma surge.
Indeed, he claims to have found two more recent underwater landscapes since, both caused by the same phenomenon.
The research is published in the journal Nature Geoscience.

<from -Ancient submerged landscape of mountains and riverbeds found on the Atlantic seabed | Mail Online >



And no, I am not pointing to the Daily Mail as akin to the American Scientific, simply used that as it was easy to find and online; the point is that there have been large subsidences of land beneath the seas, and if Man was living on those lands, assuming any survived, this would likely have been recorded even if only in oral histories. Also - no I am NOT proposing that particular sunken landscape was Atlantis, just showing that the basis for the story as told in Timaeus (Critias has most of the anachronisms and embellishments) is hardly a fantasy, though until VERY recently, the idea that a large land mass could subside beneath the sea was called ridiculous and impossible by the Atlantis skeptics along with much of academia.

Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco







[FONT=arial, sans-serif].[/FONT]

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Do you think such a large continent could sink that far and not leave some kind of evidence on the ocean floor?

I realize this question was directed to our mutual amigo Don Jose' however it seems that you have inserted a word there which is not in Plato's description of Atlantis, specifically "continent". Plato never calls Atlantis a continent, and the sentence where modern translators have assumed it to be saying, really means 'greater' not "larger", plus his physical description of the main island of Atlantis, is of an island smaller than Greenland by a considerable margin. Hardly a "continent" despite what SO many people love to say, both for and against Atlantis.

The collapse of an island the size described by Plato would indeed leave some evidence on the sea floor, like ancient river valleys, as so recently discovered in the Atlantic between Scotland and Greenland, where eight major rivers once flowed on dry land.

Sorry for butting in on that point, please do continue, but keep in mind that Atlantis was a large island, with several other outlying islands, NOT a continent by any means.

Oh and one last thing here, Cactusjumper also wrote

We only quote Plato when it's convenient to our argument.

I have posted the full text of Plato's story of Atlantis, and links to where the full text of both Timaeus and Critias can be found online for our readers to enjoy. It would hardly make sense to quote passages of Plato which are at odds with the point one is trying to make. Besides, you are implying that we should pick out one sentence, then skip two, take the next, skip one, etc and this is hardly the case. Rather, we can largely dismiss the whole of Critias as it shows anachronisms and probable exaggerations, and work from Timaeus, which is much more in agreement with the other ancient sources on Atlantis. I think I have pointed this out before.

Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

Nice post. You are correct that I should not have used "continent". Some have used that word, but not Plato. While sitting in our store, I often make these kinds of mistakes. Need my books to do my thinking for me these days.

I am not saying that the sinking of a large island is not possible, just that I don't believe Plato's story is plausible, especially for the time it has been placed in. If you start taking out the parts that don't fit, you are telling an entirely different story.

More on where it should be located......Later.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

I seem to recall someone writing that Thera/Santorini did not have hot and cold water piped into the homes. They did.

Joe

 

[RWLJ]

2/10/14​

Keys that will take you to Atlantis​

Hello, all you good people out there,
The great key to a discovery or treasures is homework (research). A lot of people that write or tell treasure stories have an ulterior motive for writing or telling the treasure story. My ulterior motive is to help all people to get on the greatest foundation of real history as possible and stay away from vain pursuits. If we learn from true history it can help us prevent a lot of pit falls in our lives. I believe it would be a lot better for me and all my friends and that we would all be better off if we all contribute to bringing forth all types of true treasures. How many of us would not pull someone out of the road if we saw that he was going to get hit with a car. How many of us, if we saw someone fall into a river would not jump in and try to save them. If I remember right, life guards have to knock some people out in order to save them. I just ask to be forgiven if I pop someone’s bubble and it offends them.

I have made discoveries quite a few years ago and those who think they have found the place of these discoveries will no doubt feel offended. The bright side of these discoveries is that I am not preventing anyone from helping bring them forth, as long as they respect the moral rights of others.

Now I would like to share where my homework in the past has lead me.

You cannot use copycat named places to follow as a point of reference. Some example:
What we know today as Europe is not the first Europe. What we know today as Asia is not first Asia. Africa is not first Africa. The Mediterranean Sea is not the first Mediterranean Sea and the pillars at its entrance are not the first Pillars of Hercules. The Atlantic Ocean is not the Atlantis Sea. New England is not the England in the British Isles. What we call England in the Europe of today is not first England. First England is where King Arthur lived where the fiery angels destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah in the land of Genesis. The copycat named places are innumerable. No one is going to find Atlantis beyond the Pillars of Hercules unless they know where the first Pillars of Hercules are at.

If we are going to look for things in ancient history you have to recognize that teachers of light throughout the ages may have given a map or a story but the key pieces of the map and the story could have been left out or hidden. I know a number of people today that sell books that do not give you all of the pieces. When it comes to things that tie in with treasures, you can count on some things being hidden or masked. So I will take my hat off to Oro Blanco and cactusjumper and others for having done a lot of good research and making some good points.

There are those that have the Aztecs Aztlan east of Mexico and in other places. There are others looking for Aztlan northwest of Mexico City. These are contradictions in interrupting Aztec History. I have never found where the Aztecs taught anything other than; it was to the northwest.

I have found where they said it was to the rising of the sun but that is not a contradictions when you understand how they used the sun. They used it the same as the Egyptians, as well as the Hopi Indians. The sun in a lot of different cultures represented a lot of different things. For the people that did not understand the greater light, the sun represented the light that rose in the east each morning. To other it represented education or enlightenment. To others it represented the land of Alpha where the great light of truth and knowledge rose in the beginning of time. When cultures or civilizations decline and became corrupted is when the sun set on them. Sometimes it happened because of huge wars, other times it is because of natural catastrophes.

I personally believe the sun is setting on America and a lot of the world today. I believe we are going to have to bring forth a new sun that will bring forth greater enlightenment in bringing forth greater moral laws in resecting people’s rights. The Aztecs and the Egyptians both believe that in the beginning the sun rose in the west and it would rise again in the west in the future. In that place in the west you will find the island of Atlantis or what is left of it.

Before we go any farther let us look at something else. Plato was no fool. I will tell you what he embellished and why. Why did he end his story that Zeus had convened a consul of the gods and had spoken to them thus? That is the end of a story but in reality it is the key to the beginning of the story. He surly recognized that if he had of said anything more there would have been many that would have recognized the bigger story.

It should be easy to recognize that two and two is four. Zeus dwelt upon Mount Olympus and so did the Greeks, Egyptian, and Roman gods to name a few. The Hebrews referred to these gods as things that assisted God (angels). In ancient writings we have some pretty accurate descriptions as to what these gods where. We have Immanuel Velikovsky who wrote the Worlds in Collision. He had correct ancient accounts that where fairly accurate which he misinterpreted. In these accounts the planet Venus collided with the planet Mars raising havoc on earth. With what I am about to say there will be those who can recognize this reality, if they look at and analyze the history of Mount Olympus and the gods that were on it. They represent real history, places and things when that language is properly interpreted and understood.

People and scholars are so ignorant today; many histories of the past are called myths. This is due to people’s inability to recognize how writers of the past combined or incorporated things together in telling their stories. When people fail to separate the man from the place that he lived, it ends up being a story of magic instead of down to earth reality. Keep in mind that when the stories were written or carved in stone it was very time consuming. So they learned how to combine and incorporate things together in parables.

A good example is that they failed to separate or unincorporated King Arthur and his knights and the places that they presided at. If a knight lived at a place of a fiery dragon or a volcano, the knight was incorporated with the place he lived. To understand the story you would need to separate the actions of the volcano, from the person that lived there. The description of a place helped identify the person that lived there. King Arthurs two swords pulled from the stone represented the two flaming cherubim in the center of the land of Troy. This is where the ten laws where housed that the sword Excalibur represented. The rest of this story can be better told at another time.

Real Mount Olympus had first Troy not far from its base, as Homer described. It had all of its manmade foundations dug up, unlike what Alexander the Great called new Troy in Turkey. On the original Mount Olympus there is the god Mars, the goddess Venus, Atlas, Poseidon and many other gods of Egyptian, Greek and Roman history. Venus was on a small plain which set on a plate of land that was to the west of the small red plain of Mars that set on a plate to the east of Venus. These two plates collided into what scientists called the over trust belt. It destroyed much of the earth that was above them. Somewhere around twelve thousand years ago the shifting of these two plates destroyed the island of Atlantis. Between the two plates there were dips as much as three thousand feet deep. They filled with water destroying or driving out the people of Atlantis or the people that were in the area. Atlantis literally sunk into the debts of the sea. I worked in the main temple of Atlantis and some of its tunnels for around two years with some others that helped me.

Another thing that needs to be recognized in discovering Atlantis is the land that came out from underneath a sea or seas that were lake bottoms. Like it says in Genesis he gathered the seas into their respected places and the dry land he called earth. That was not mountain lands, forest land or grass land. It was naked lake bottom, dirt lands and there he placed Adam the first man of a new race. In the middle of that dry sea bed of the ancient that he called earth, he created a volcano that erupted several different times and it came to rest in its seventh distinct flow. That is the place where Adam and Eve lived and are entombed to this day.

At the end of the Ice age, long before Adam’s time that inland sea filled up and broke out through Red Rock Pass and dumped into the Snake River which dumped into the Columbian River Gorge. You can see the large places that were cut out by that flood along the Columbian River Gorge. It created a flood bigger then all current rivers combined, according to scientists. It allowed most of Lake Bonneville to dry up and the dry land to appear, like it says in Genesis. The earth in ancient times did not mean the globe. It was this real place called earth (not the globe) that a quarter of it was flooded at the time of Noah. This time frame is backed up by geologist. You can go between Salt Lake and Provo to what is called The Point of the Mountain and see the two different shore lines. One of the shore lines was created about the time of the end of the Ice Age and the other one was created about the time of Noah.

Ancient Lake Bonneville is the ancient Atlantis Sea. At that time it had at least ten big islands. The south end of the Atlantis Sea comes to an end by Atlas and Hercules where they held up the heavens or the high land above them. According to geologist and scientist the south end has been rising pretty rapidly in geological time. Right south of the end of Lake Bonneville is where Ash creek begins. Ash creek hits La Verkin creek a little ways before it hits the Virgin River. The Virgin River goes through the Virgin Gorge and then runs into the Colorado River. Along Ash Creek you can see big boulders and big rocks where the ancient river ones flowed between Lake Bonneville and the Ocean. You can see water falls along the cliffs on the east side of Ash creek and lime rock that has not had time to cut down to creek level. This shows a major shift along the Hurricane fault in recent times. Lake Bonneville at one time or another had ten big islands in it. Atlantis is rising not sinking and the big mountains around the Atlantis Sea are still there.

Atlantis is an island that has seven caverns in it. It is none other than the Aztec Aztlan. This is none other than the Troy of Homers writings. It took the Greek hero Odysseus ten years to get home from Troy. The One Eyed Cyclops is what the Egyptians called the one Eye of Horus. The treasures and the wealth of Atlantis have been stripped several times, once by the Greeks during the Trojan War, then by the Babylonians and then by Tiberius’s Army. Atlantis, Troy and Solomon’s Jerusalem are one in the same place. As long as we cannot give up Babylonian confusion of language and are not able to quit prostituting true history with copycat history places, we will continue to carry the mysteries of the whore of Babylon on our heads. The Christian scriptures say we need to come out of her if we are going to be the people of the greater good.

Let us get back to Mount Olympus and the gods and where the little plain of Venus collided with the plain of Mars. This took place in the heaved or raised up area. This has nothing to do with what was named after them that is up in the sky. The first universe of history was the one sacred area around Atlantis that the constellation of the stars and the universe was named after. The constellations became the second universe in history. Uni means one in Latin. One verse of the Bible is only a small part. Adams universe was one area around him. The new universe that was named after that area was not nearly as big in ancient times, compared to what we can see today in our telescopes.

Planet in ancient times meant a little plain. These little plains in the area of Mount Olympus are still there and are not to be confused with what we call Venus and Mars today, if we ever want to recognize the island of ancient Atlantis. We are also not to confuse the geological gods which are volcanoes, mountains, valleys and other things with the people and places that were name after them. Nor are we to confuse them with leaders or messengers that carried the name that identified them.
Sampson was called Hercules because he reflected some of the nature of the pillars of geological Hercules. The Pillars of Hercules you can see from interstate fifteen, east of New Harmony. The top parts of the pillars are in the form of a red right hand. The finger part is called the Kolob Fingers. Kolob is a name that ties in with the Pleiades. It ties in with the land next to Zeus’s throne. Zeus’s throne before the Greeks was called the throne of Osiris. The Christians referred to it as the throne of God. It is called West Temple in Zion’s National park today. It still has in front of it what is left of an ancient stream of fire, as is described in the Bible and other ancient records.

Poseidon in the ancient language of the area would mean the waters of the sea of Eden. They existed in Hops Valley up until a couple of hundred years ago, according to geologist. Through Hops Valley you have the cougar fault line which the ancients called the spear or arrow that was Poseidon Trident. It broke up and came to an end and helped form or shaped the hand. It was a geological father or creator of the hand which the ancients called Atlas.
There is an article in the West Virginian magazine about some Celtic writing translated by Berry Fell. He translated the writing that taught about the right hand of god. It spelled out and pronounced the name Atlantis. He quotes other Christian records that say the right hand of god is a sun shield. We can also show this in records going back to ancient Egypt. Truly the right hand stopped the arrow or Poseidon’s Trident that was shot out by a volcanic light or a sun that was to the south of it.



[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable, width: 257"]
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[TD="width: 339, bgcolor: transparent"]HOW INSCRIPTIONS ARE DECIPHERED
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[TD="width: 339, bgcolor: transparent"]Figure H. Photograph of a rebus on the Horse Creek Petroglyph.
Credit: Arnout Hyde, Jr.[/TD]
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This is an appropriate point at which to say a little about how the texts are deciphered. When the Ogam strokes are arranged to suggest a picture, the result is what is called a rebus, obviously a device by the scribe to help the reader understand his inscription. The following are the steps by which we can interpret the rebus shown in Figure H.

We note the hand in the lower part of the inscription. In Celtic languages, the verb stands first in the sentence and is followed by the subject. Accordingly, we disregard the first few strokes to the left and look for the word "hand" (lam in Old Irish). As expected, the letters L and M are there. They are preceded by three upper-case strokes (T), evidently the verb "is" (see Vocabulary at the end of this article). Thus, in line I-2 we can undertake to separate out the consonants, as shown. Line I-3 shows the succession of consonants we obtain. Line I-4 shows the text rewritten with appropriate vowel points inserted, so as to make a meaningful statement, using all the consonants. The Old Irish, in Latin script, is given in line I-5. A literal English rendering of each word is given in line I-6. In line I-7 the words are rearranged to conform to English grammar, the subject now preceding the verb.

[TABLE="class: MsoNormalTable, width: 187"]
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[TD="bgcolor: transparent"]Figure J. Rebus with Ogam strokes that are incorporated in a hand.
Credit: Arnout Hyde, Jr.
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A different type of rebus is shown in Figure J. Here all the Ogam strokes are incorporated into the hand, and there are three transverse stem lines crossing the strokes. This warns us that the Ogam strokes are to be read separately for each of the stem lines, assuming therefore different alphabet values according to whether they stand above, or below, or across, any given stem line. In short, the whole device is a monogram in which various letters have been superimposed. The resulting decipherment (Figure K) yields a sequence of Old Irish words: Atar, Mac, Sbiorad Noib, Oin Dia—"Father, Son and Holy Spirit, One God." And reference to early Christian literatures, such as the writings of Julian of Norwich, or Pier's Plowman, discloses that the mystical meaning of the Dextera Dei is that the hand symbolizes the unified Trinity, the closed fist God the Father, the fingers God the Son and the Palm the Holy Spirit.


According to Wikipedia Atlas’s father was Lapetus. Lapetus isderives from the word iapto ("wound, pierce") and usually refers to a spear. According to Plato, Atlas’s father was Poseidon. In reality it was Poseidon’s Trident that broke up the area that formed the hand or Atlas. There are people that negate Atlantis being a real place do to a lack of history from other places. Plato made it real clear that he did not use its original name, neither did the Egyptians.

In reality there are all kinds of myths, histories and legends that talk about the area. It was paradise, the Garden of Eden with four rivers running out of it in the land of Genesis. In Aztec history it was where the four rivers run out of red rock their place of origin. All over the world there are images of Atlas the right hand. In Ezekiel it was the center part between the Great Sea to the North (The Great Salt Lake) and the waters of strife to the south (the rapids in the Grand Canyon). The Greeks called the city of Atlantis, Troy. The Hebrews called it Urusalim. The Egyptians called it their Underworld guarded by a falcon hawk. The Welch legends referred to it as their Triad. The stories of King Arthur referred to it as their first England. The Israelites referred to it as the land of the Right Hand. In the land of their Right Hand was Jerusalem. Its center part was called Troy Poseidon. Just because Plato was not about to make the central land recognizable does not take away the creditability of the land of Atlantis.

It took Abraham three day to go from first Lebanon in the land of Genesis passed the four rivers of Eden and then passed Mount Zion to reach the land of Canaan. Mind you the root meaning of Mount is hand. Another meaning of Mount is Mountain. Jacob was on the way from Lebanon to Canaan when his wife Rachel died in the land of the right hand. He buried her in Ramah. Ramah is feminine for first Rome. A map with that Rome on it is on the Lead Crosses that were found in Tucson.

Sampson who the Greeks called Hercules fought the Philistines on the hill that was called the Jaw Bone of an Ass. The Bible refers to it as Ramah of Lehi in Judges 15. When we get away from the Babylonian confusion of language and the duplicate named places then we will find the original place called earth, which was the basin of the Atlantis Sea (Lake Bonneville). If people can read Aztec history straight they can recognize the true Atlantis.

One of the first padres in Mexico wrote that the Indians told him that they had the same history as we did in our Bible but the older part of it took place here, not over there. Indian legends and histories from one end of America to the other takes you to the land of Atlantis.

When you recognized the true Greek history, the true Egyptian history and the true Roman history and find the land of their gods and their Mount Olympus, you will see that Atlas is part of Mount Olympus. Mount Olympus was the Israelite’s first Mount Zion. It is a land that all the great powers wanted to keep and have as their private domain. Atlas or Mount Zion is cut out without hands. Better said, it was cut out in the shape of a hand.

This and all the other things that are cut out in the area will roll out or move forward and hit Babylon on its feet or foundation and destroy it. All those that want to bury and destroy this truth will bury and destroy themselves to the degree they use their hand to strike down Atlas (or what he stands for) the great hand with its Kolob Fingers in Zion’s National Park. This is a wakeup call for those that want to deal with reality and come out of Babylon the Great and rid themselves of the whore with mysteries across her forehead. This includes all religions and educational institutions of the day.

Atlas carrying a sphere or a globe on his shoulders represented the eternal laws that held up civilizations around the globe. Without law and order things would be completely chaotic and the most corrupt would rule. Without law and order mankind would be reduced below a caveman status.

Right next to Atlas or the Kolob Fingers area in Zion’s National Park you have Fire Pit Knoll. Between these two places you have Hops Valley crossing La Verkin Creek making a big Ta Cross. Fire Pit Knoll was recognized throughout history as the place of the great light or sun (Ra) that enlightened mankind. It was the place where Moses gave the Israelites the Ten Commandments. The Egyptians referred to this volcano which is black rock on red sand stone, as Anubis the Jackal god. It holds the scale representing the shifting of the cougar fault line. It weighs the heart against the feather or the law. The first five books of the Bible are called the Torah. It represents the place that the law was given which would be Fire Pit Knoll the place of Ra where Hops Valley crosses La Verkin creek making a big red Ta Cross or T. The Indians referred to Hops Valley lake or sea bed as the reed, the stem of their peace pipe and fire Pit Knoll as their peace pipe. They had ten feathers that hung from the reed representing the ten laws that Moses gave them at Mount Sinai (that was on the mountain that had the hand of Zion). The local Piute Indians called Fire Pit Knoll, Sinawava which is by both its Hebrew and Egyptian name. Wava meant the wolf or jackal god.

During the time of Babel tongues and languages got separated or confused. When you take all the tongue or languages to their root base then we will no longer be confused by tongues or language when we arrive at its base. Does not the Bible state that the law went forth from Mount Zion? Even with the Greeks is not the symbol for Mount Olympus rings in rings. How many of us today are in all the inner circles of what is going on of the day. Throughout all times there have been those who are in the inner circles and those who are in the outer circles. When righteousness reigned it was the righteous or high priests that went into the inner circles, the Holy of Holies. The medicine wheel represented the medicine or the eternal laws that would make us well.

On the dream catcher the circle represents the spirit of or the whole law. All the strings or paths of feathers to it represented the path of straight laws that we need to travel if we want to catch our dreams. The beads along the strings or straight paths represented the beauty and the glory and the blessings in keeping those eternal laws. Throughout history people wore rings of necklaces decorated with beautiful beads and charms. This was to be a reminder or things that could influence us through memory to keep them eternal laws that bring beauty and glory and prosperity to all life. People in societies in past times were given beads and charms for their accomplishments that honored them. People today wear metals that honor them for their accomplishments. In ancient times particularly a necklace of gold represented that which was more eternal and untarnishable. The yellow gold represented the great light of truth as the sun enlightens more things. Mount Zion is the father place of the greatest laws that were ever written down by men. To the degree that we apply them, we will be blessed and to the degree we go against them and think we are above them, is to the degree we will be cursed. The ones that reject this truth will leave themselves open to learn the hard way.

The roots of civilizations and all the great powers of the past had roots in the eternal self-evident laws that are represented in the rings from Mount Olympus. A ring graduating out into bigger and bigger rings with a continuous line of rings getting bigger represents infinity or that which is eternal or everlasting. It identifies the Hebrew God that had no beginning or end.

Plato gave us a very clear description of what originally made Atlantis strong. It was the three ring or channels of water that encircled the city. This would have been recognized as embellishment by those who knew anything about the place and its history. They did not realize that Plato was using a parable that represented something that will play a key importance if we want to gain the greater blessing in understanding history.

When King Arthur ruled at the place and the people prospered, is when they held or supported the Excalibur sword but when they turned their back on that sword things want to pot. The sword was the two edge sword of truth that cuts both ways. The X represented the ten laws that made you a high caliber person. The chief of the round table was called Gawain which means falcon hawk. It was someone that carried the title of Horus the Falcon Hawk. Horus the Falcon Hawk has a round table of rock around him with an opening on one side. In the center of that table to this day is the original Holy Grail.

In ancient times water was used in different ways just as the sun was used in different ways. Just as good water helps plants to grow, good education helps people grow. Christ says if you drink of my water you thirst no more. The original rings of water around Atlantis were the rings of education, the true waters or rivers of life. They carry the true ships of state. The rock walls between the channels of water are parables that representing the walls of true defense. Within all of our walls of true defense we have a temple or a capital where the laws are issued forth or taught or houses of judgment that establish equal rights. Plato was really saying when he talks about the walls of water around Atlantis if we want to find Atlantis and have what Atlantis was then we need to keep the laws that those blessings are founded upon. That is a key to having true Atlantis and sit on the right hand (Atlas) of the greater good.

The Aztecs created a calendar that represents the rings in rings that represents eternal laws. It encompasses the holy truths that blessings are founded upon when we partake of them waters of life. The Israelites referred to the place that housed the great laws, as the Holy of Holies.

Those that lacked the greater knowledge that Plato held could easy assume that he embellished Atlantis by putting rings of water around it. If Atlantis was destroyed should we still be looking for rings of water of any kind?

People have things upside down when they try to make everything fit from the Middle East coming to America when it was originally the other way around. Many make the mistake of trying to cloth the ancients with the same clothing we have today. Remember the sun rose and set on Atlantis. It rose and set on Solomon’s Empire. It rose and set on many other empires including the British and now it is setting on the United States Empire. Now those that want to partake of the Waters of Life need to gather back to Mount Olympus the land of the First Morning Star in history and raise the sun in the west.

The Aztecs and the Egyptians knew that we would not have things straight until we went back to our true roots and built upon a real foundation of true history and law. This is not religious this is the true science of reality, if we want to be blessed.

When Plato ends the story of Atlantis with Zeus convening the consul of gods he left you at the scene where the history of Atlantis begin and ended. It identifies the land of the greater gods of civilization in the land or place of the underworld. It is very clear from the histories around the world, particularly the Egyptians who state when the sun sets on the river of Egypt, the four or fifth hour after it sets, it is in the heart of the sky in the underworld. They also say that the underworld is where the sun spent the night. That is not in the Atlantic where people are erroneously looking for it.

Many years ago I had found and nailed down many of these gods of the ancients. One of them was a place where time was measured by Enoch through the six fingered canyons of the hand. Enoch referred to them as the gateways of the sun. Native Indians claim that this is where our twelve month calendar came from. I found a slight cave or overhang where there was a carving in stone showing the path of the sun between the solstices and equinoxes marking four seasons.

I have seen the places that the ancients referred to as gods. They are places of beauty that gave glory and life to the inhabitants in ancient times. These places cover the land of Paradise. It takes in a lot of great National Parks and Monuments that ring Kanab, Utah. Here you can see the glorious works and wonders and recognize the hand of the master of creation. Under the influence of ancient Israel they dropped the many gods and recognized the different gods as attributes or messengers of God. The beauty of these places surely represents the message of what the eternal created in nature.

Dise means plurality of gods. When you realize that then you can add that to the names that surround the original paradise. Let us start with the Perea River that takes you into the heart mountains of Paradise and put dice on its name. Then you will have Pereadise River. Let us go to the different Parashaunt canyons that go out of Paradise. If you put dice back in the name you would have Paradiseshaunt which means the hide or side of Paradise. The Little Salt Lake was called Parowan. It also ties in with the waters of Paradise.

The symbol of Paradise among the Indians or ancient inhabitance was the elk or the deer. The horns of that elk were the front pillars of the Kolob Fingers. The elk or deer were the symbol of peace from the Egyptians to the native inhabitance. When the ancients acted out their story in their parades representing the history of Paradise, the leaders of the parades wore the deer head with horns. This represented the place of beginning where Adam and Eve left the Garden of Eden and went down into the Land of Desolation.

Adam and Eve found refuge in the temple of Isis. One day while trying to return to their refuge one of the cherubim was spitting out ashes (as it says in Psalms 22), so they left that area and went to the southern side of Eden or the Red lands. Then they went east to the Cane Beds Arizona area and they stayed there for a while. Eve gave birth to three sons and two daughters there before they retuned to the Land of Desolation. This is where the original city of Urusalim was built, the original land of Troy. Both the names Troy and Urusalim identify this place.

The handwriting that tells this story is all over the walls from the Grand Canyon to Fillmore, Utah. It is in the mother language, the oldest Paleo Hebrew language in the world. My question is; when are people going to wake up and give up their part for the whole?

R. W. L.

 

[cactusjumper]

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


Nice post. You are correct that I should not have used "continent". Some have used that word, but not Plato. While sitting in our store, I often make these kinds of mistakes. Need my books to do my thinking for me these days.


I am not saying that the sinking of a large island is not possible, just that I don't believe Plato's story is plausible, especially for the time it has been placed in. If you start taking out the parts that don't fit, you are telling an entirely different story.

That is precisely what you have been doing by proposing Crete and the Minoan empire as Atlantis, which requires changing the pillars of Herakles, changing the location from the Atlantic to the Mediterranean, changing the time period, ignoring the elephants and so on. More on this in a moment.


Cactusjumper also wrote

More on where it should be located......Later.


Take care,


Joe

Plato, Strabo, Diodorus, Plutarch all locate Atlantis in the Atlantic ocean. This is a key issue and trying to "move" Atlantis to another location then makes it not Atlantis. Otherwise we need to re-name the Atlantic ocean.


As to taking out "parts" of Plato's story, you are aware that Plato really told us TWO stories of Atlantis, one version in Timaeus and one version in Critias. Critias has the detailed descriptions and items which are not correct for 9,500 BC like triremes. Critias is a much more embellished and fanciful tale, than you get in Timaeus. I would propose that we can ignore Critias and work from Timaeus, which is supported by other sources, rather than trying to pick out one item from a check list and dismiss another item, picking and choosing from the whole of both stories. Stick to Timaeus - If you want to find the real Ice Age Atlantis.


RWLJ wrote

<snip> I worked in the main temple of Atlantis and some of its tunnels for around two years with some others that helped me. <snip>

My word - quite a post there RWLJ.


I see a great deal in your post which I respectfully disagree with, and on several levels. Where, for instance, would the Athenians be, if your Atlantis stood in Utah? Remember they were at war at the time of the end of Atlantis, and there is little evidence of any Greeks being in Utah circa 9,500 BC. You are mixing and blending many different, unrelated legends and histories there, which is not a logical approach nor supported by history or evidence. We might as well toss in Abraham, Lot, Samson and Sinbad to that tossed salad of history, sorry but it just doesn't make sense to me.


However in reference to your statement which I re-posted, if you worked in the main temple, why not post a few photos of the temple for our readers to study and enjoy? I am sure many people would appreciate it, and it would help support your theory. Thank you in advance.


Good luck and good hunting amigos, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[kanabite]

hi ORO ,
i honestly believe that RWL would have better luck with this, if he could just put the bible down for a second .
no offence intended , just my opinion.
Indians in the Americas: The Untold Story - William Marder - Google Books