Atlantis

markmar said:
Joe

The Solon story about Atlantis was the source for Plato story . I don't believe the Atlantis with the greedy and bloody warriors was the " perfect society , place....people " . I believe Plato have lived in the perfect society , he have lived in the Democracy .
Thera ( Santorini ) islands were /are a dry volcanic places without a possibility to make a developed agriculture .
Click to expand...

Marius,

In my informed opinion, you are badly mistaken on all counts in your last post. I can provide sources for that statement. It's possible you could change my mind, but you would need to quote sources for your opinion.

Take care,

Joe
 

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Joe

I don't know how more informed you are , but one thing is sure . The Atlantis was not in Thera and not in Crete .
Thera ( Santorini ) is a dry place with high mountains . Today is a famous turistic target with many hotels . Many professional divers have searched for Atlantis traces in the deep waters but without a result . Some pictures from Thera

santorini-photos-09.jpg thira0473.jpg thira0235.jpg

Now about the Minoan dynasty in Crete . I went to Knossos , the residence of the Minoan civilization , and is 5 Km afar from the beach in a elevation about 120 m . I believe how was very hard to reach a tsunami wave there because in the way between the Thera and Knossos , is a big island which have the highest elevation about 250 m .

Crete.jpg

You can believe what you want but Solon story was the first source in Critea and after in Plato story . Solon was in Egypt and translated the story from the Ancient carvings .

Have a nice day
 

markmar said:
Joe

I don't know how more informed you are , but one thing is sure . The Atlantis was not in Thera and not in Crete .
Thera ( Santorini ) is a dry place with high mountains . Today is a famous turistic target with many hotels . Many professional divers have searched for Atlantis traces in the deep waters but without a result . Some pictures from Thera

View attachment 938213 View attachment 938214 View attachment 938215

Now about the Minoan dynasty in Crete . I went to Knossos , the residence of the Minoan civilization , and is 5 Km afar from the beach in a elevation about 120 m . I believe how was very hard to reach a tsunami wave there because in the way between the Thera and Knossos , is a big island which have the highest elevation about 250 m .

View attachment 938217

You can believe what you want but Solon story was the first source in Critea and after in Plato story . Solon was in Egypt and translated the story from the Ancient carvings .

Have a nice day
Click to expand...

Marius,

I did not write I was "more informed". What I wrote was "In my informed opinion". That was to confirm that I had researched the topic as much as it was possible for me, with many books, both pro and con. That's as much as I can do from the U.S.:dontknow:

How Volcanoes Work - Santorini Eruption

http://www.visit-santorini.com/site/history.htm

Considering the advanced civilization that lived on Santorini (buildings/public utilities, etc.) I have doubts that the island has always been inhospitable to extensive plant life. I may very well be wrong, and you right, but the debate is ongoing in archaeological circles.

For a better idea of where I am coming from on this topic, I would suggest reading:

"Santorini: Volcano, Natural History, Mythology" starting on Page 51 actually describes a much different Thera than what we see todaly. The flora was not of the desert variaty. You have to realize there were some long periods on the island that were free of eruptions.....say five thousand years or so.:o

Take care,

Joe
 

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Don Jose,

I don't believe you should take Plato's story as carved in rock, so to speak. When you consider the fact that the destruction of Atlantis, as described, took place 9,000 years before Plato supposedly received the story, it might give you some serious doubts as to it's truthfulness.

Thousands of book, likely, have been published on the subject, but the general consensus is that it's a fable. That's my opinion as well.

Take care,

Joe
 

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My esteemed, practically blood brother, Joe, you posted --->t the general consensus is that it's a fable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is my purpose, to show them / you that it is not a fable !!!

Don Jose de La Mancha formerly from Atlantis, now Alamos.
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
My esteemed, practically blood brother, Joe, you posted --->t the general consensus is that it's a fable.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
That is my purpose, to show them / you that it is not a fable !!!

Don Jose de La Mancha formerly from Atlantis, now Alamos.
Click to expand...

Don Jose,

I am still waiting to read of the many coincidences that you cite for your location for Atlantis.??? I remain ready to be convinced.:dontknow:

Take care,

Joe
 

Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp said:
Joe,, if you standdd ready to be convinced, you are partially convinced already. Coffee ??

Don Jose de La Mancha
Click to expand...

Don Jose,

Archaeology dictates that those who do the research, be ready for the next turn of the spade to change history. Absolutes are seldom voiced/written in the trade.

While I am convinced that Marinatos and Doumas have uncovered the real source of Plato's Atlantis story on Thera/Kalliste, it will probably take another 300 years to complete the picture. The latest name for the island, Thera, means fear. The old name, Kalliste, means "the most beautiful". Hanging gardens, hot and cold plumbing......to every home, flush toilets and lush foliage once existed on the island.

Read the descriptions of what they excavated in "Unearthing Atlantis...." and compare that to Plato's descriptions and you will see real parallels. If you are looking for coincidences, read the Charles Pellegrino book that I just referenced. to date, I have seen none (0) of the coincidences you have mentioned from your site. It's prudent, IMHO, to be open to other answers in archaeology.

Take care,:coffee2::coffee2::coffee2:

Joe
 

Joe

From your statements about Thira , I understand how you agree with my theory how the Atlantis catastrophe had placed at about 1400 BC and not at about 9000 BC . Many scientist believe how Solon have translated wrong the number 900 with the number 9000 which look like the same .

Hieratic numerals.gif
 

Cactusjumper wrote
Thousands of book, likely, have been published on the subject, but the general consensus is that it's a fable. That's my opinion as well.
Click to expand...

Consensus of whom? Consensus implies "agreed by all" or specifically, "a general agreement about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group". So whom are you referring to, when you make this statement?

Atlantis is no fable. It is a version of the ending of the last Ice Age, only one viewpoint, which cataclysm is found in the "myths" of many cultures world wide. Considering the enduring and widespread interest in the topic, I don't think there IS any consensus on Atlantis on any point.

Joe how do you reconcile Crete, with the clear statements in Plato (and Diodorus, Plutarch's Life of Solon, in fact all other ancient sources) as well as the very name of the Atlantic ocean? Crete is not in the Atlantic, and the Minoans "empire" does not appear to have extended even as far west as the end of the Mediterranean.

How do you reconcile the massive volcanic eruption and resulting tsunamis which emanated from Thera/Santorini, with 'earthquakes and floods" with no mention of any volcanic eruption or giant waves in Plato's account, nor in any other ancient source?

How many changes to Plato's story are you willing to accept, to make a site fit? (As for example, Crete)

Thank you in advance,
Roy
 

PS for our readers, here are the relevant passages from Plato, which are referred to in my preious post, which clearly indicate the island of Atlantis was located in the Atlantic ocean, that the events had happened not 900 but 9000 years before the time of Solon or about 9500 BC, and that the disaster which destroyed Atlantis was a combination of earthquakes and floods, no mention of any volcanic eruption.

This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles;the island was greater than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there was a great and wonderful empire which had rule over the whole island and several others, and over parts of the continent, and, furthermore, the men of Atlantis had subjected the parts of Libya within the columns of Heracles as far as Egypt, and of Europe as far as Tyrrhenia. This vast power, gathered into one, endeavoured to subdue at a blow our country and yours and the whole of the region within the straits;

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.
<from Timaeus>
Let me begin by observing first of all, that nine thousand was the sum of years which had elapsed since the war which was said to have taken place between those who dwelt outside the Pillars of Heracles and all who dwelt within them; this war I am going to describe. Of the combatants on the one side, the city of Athens was reported to have been the leader and to have fought out the war; the combatants on the other side were commanded by the kings of Atlantis, which, as was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia, and when afterwards sunk by an earthquake, became an impassable barrier of mud to voyagers sailing from hence to any part of the ocean.

And he named them all; the eldest, who was the first king, he named Atlas, and after him the whole island and the ocean were called Atlantic. To his twin brother, who was born after him, and obtained as his lot the extremity of the island towards the Pillars of Heracles, facing the country which is now called the region of Gades in that part of the world, he gave the name which in the Hellenic language is Eumelus, in the language of the country which is named after him, Gadeirus.
<from Critias>
 

Roy

I believe 9500 years are too much to keep a story alive by tell it mouth to ear . After 9500 years the story would been very altered . I have a theory which could give credit to Thira as Alantis as how in Plato story ( Timaeus and Critias ) were mixed two Atlantis . The first named Atlan was the mother land which was in the Gulf of Mexico on Mexico land , and the second named Atlantis was in Thira . They gave a Greek end to the name because of the region , something like New York or New Orleans . They had choosen Thira from the strategic place in the sea and from the invincibility of the land shape , The high mountains walls around the island and the small entrance in the gulf gave them a high defence priority . At that time in the centre of the Thira gulf was another island with round shape . They took the island from the Minoans which were vanished all in fight and loot . Thira was the headquarters of this campaign of conquest and the Atlanteans took there all the precious loots , for this the famous rich place .
They won easy the towns/states at the coasts of Mediteranean sea but they could not win the Athenians . The war between Atlanteans and Athenians took some years , and before Athenians loose , the Thiras volcanos vanished the island in the middle of the gulf and all the Atlantean ships and warriors . Maybe the traces of civilization on this island , are hidden under tons of lava in the bottom of the sea . Every volcano eruption starts with earthquakes and the eruption had likened with the Zeus thunder . The small groups of warriors which had remained at the coasts of Spain , regrouped and went back to Atlan in the Mexico .
In this conquest , the Atlanteans learned many things and adopted some habits and defence strategies from the civilizatons which met . They saw from the Minoans and the Athenians how for better defence their headquarters were not on the coast , but few miles into the land and in a high place , with many stone walls fences between sea and these . The Atlanteans when returned to their mother land , had built a new town/state which have a mixed defence strategy like in Thira and Athens or Crete , and this town was named Tenochtitlan .
 

Oroblanco said:
Cactusjumper wrote


Consensus of whom? Consensus implies "agreed by all" or specifically, "a general agreement about something : an idea or opinion that is shared by all the people in a group". So whom are you referring to, when you make this statement?

Atlantis is no fable. It is a version of the ending of the last Ice Age, only one viewpoint, which cataclysm is found in the "myths" of many cultures world wide. Considering the enduring and widespread interest in the topic, I don't think there IS any consensus on Atlantis on any point.

Joe how do you reconcile Crete, with the clear statements in Plato (and Diodorus, Plutarch's Life of Solon, in fact all other ancient sources) as well as the very name of the Atlantic ocean? Crete is not in the Atlantic, and the Minoans "empire" does not appear to have extended even as far west as the end of the Mediterranean.

How do you reconcile the massive volcanic eruption and resulting tsunamis which emanated from Thera/Santorini, with 'earthquakes and floods" with no mention of any volcanic eruption or giant waves in Plato's account, nor in any other ancient source?

How many changes to Plato's story are you willing to accept, to make a site fit? (As for example, Crete)

Thank you in advance,
Roy
Click to expand...

Roy,

Had I written "consensus", as you just did, I would have to concede the point. "General consensus", which is what I wrote, means a majority agreement. I believe that holds true today, just as it did in Plato's time.

You wrote: "Atlantis is no fable. It is a version of the ending of the last Ice Age....".

I don't believe any civilization was as advanced as Plato's Atlantis at the end of the last Ice Age.

You wrote: "How many changes to Plato's story are you willing to accept, to make a site fit? (As for example, Crete)"

As written, I don't take any of Plato's Atlantis story as FACT. That being the case, I don't really need to change a word of it. Because it takes place over ten thousand years ago, and no real evidence of its existence has ever been found, I'm reluctant to give the story any credence.

Many people do believe Plato's story, so you are not alone.

There are so many explanations of the Atlantis name being used by Plato that, IMHO, it is not an issue.

On the other hand, it remains a great topic.

Take care,

Joe
 

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Don Jose de La Cholla, you posted -->As written, I don't take any of Plato's Atlantis story as FACT.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~,

May I ask you for any "facts" proving the existence of King Solomons' mines, The Holy Grail, and on for many many other places, things, or happenings as recounted in the Bible or folklore, both of which 'have a disconcerting habit' of turning up ever so often.

Atlantis' time is coming as new equipment is developed. Course you could speed up things by diving down to it, only 12,000 ft.

Don Jose de La Mancha




































































































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Good point, Don Jose - how do we know any of the old myths, legends or religions have a factual basis until irrefutable proof surfaces? The answer is that we don't, and have to support them on faith alone, bolstered by various forms of circumstantial evidence and corrupted hearsay. When influential people jump in, it might sway opinions, but a house built on shifting sands still has a shaky foundation no matter who's selling it. As far as Atlantis is concerned, we need much more than what we have so far to elevate the discussion beyond yet another bar argument.
 

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