As the story was written....."the source"....

[lastleg]

bigscoop, nice try but no cigar. The stairstep treaty called for the treaty line to go north to Arkansas
River, then west to its headwaters. Trouble is no one knew until 1840 (Fremont) where the river rose.
It was actually hundreds of miles south of the treaty boundaries.

Adams was a smart cookie. He envisioned trade with the Orient passing entirely on American soil all
the way to the Pacific. This treaty also picked up Oregon and regrettably California, the source of most
of our current social unrest.

There was no conspiracy to capture wealth from what became Colorado as it was just a wilderness back
then.

 

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[bigscoop]

bigscoop, nice try but no cigar. The stairstep treaty called for the treaty line to go north to Arkansas
River, then west to its headwaters. Trouble is no one knew until 1840 (Fremont) where the river rose.
It was actually hundreds of miles south of the treaty boundaries.

Adams was a smart cookie. He envisioned trade with the Orient passing entirely on American soil all
the way to the Pacific. This treaty also picked up Oregon and regrettably California, the source of most
of our current social unrest.

There was no conspiracy to capture wealth from what became Colorado as it was just a wilderness back
then.

I understand all that, and I'm not suggesting there was any wealth/conspiracy in regards to the "region" in question. What you are apparently missing is that, "this entire small region was ceded." In other words, even with inaccurate/uncertain mapping of rivers, etc., there was no reason that we know of to cede such a large piece of territory, and yet they did. Are you suggesting that in 1818 Spain simply said, "well, since nobody knows for sure what river flows where, exactly, we'll just cede to you this entire block of land." Not saying it didn't happen this way, but doubtful that Spain would just give up such a large chunk of land, or that the US would gain it without legal explanation.

On second thought, are you saying the defined track of land is encompassing/detailing the land area gained when the original inaccurate boundary of the Louisiana Purchase was moved further west to a more accurate/new boundary as defined in the Adam's Onis Treaty? If so this would make sense, however, it still leaves the question as to how the US confirmed those new boundaries to be accurate? If indeed this was the case then the US had to have some measure of intelligence gathering prior to agreeing to a shift in those boundaries. Yes? Or do you think they just agreed to it blindly?

 

[lastleg]

scoop: do the wiki thing on Adams-Onis, also statehood for Colorado and the links provided. All the best.

 

[tat2guy]

Scoop, since I don't know how please post the pic on the map.

This map was found accidentally guys. While looking at another topic it just appeared. It's not part of the mainline info with this treaty. That's why it's difficult to find out why this very small piece of land was in dispute.

HH Tat

 

[lastleg]

bigscoop: The map showing rather small area between Arkansas and Rio Grande rivers were claimed
by the Territory of Texas prior to the treaty. I have not found how this came to be yet. Still looking.

 

[bigscoop]

Here's one map detailing the region in question:

Prior to the Adams Onis Treaty the region in question was Spanish territory, or at the very least a region in dispute between Spain & the US. As part of the Adams Onis Treaty this region was ceded to the US.

What's interesting here is this: "If" the Beale deposits were real then let's take a closer look at the timeliness of those deposits in relationship to the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty:

Treaty signing date: February 1819
First Deposit date: November 1819 (nine months after treaty signing)

Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Second Deposit date: December 1821 (ten months after treaty ratification)

When we look at the dates above it almost appears as if the deposits were "possibly" installments dependent upon objectives surrounding the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty.

Now let's add Beale's visits to Bedford. Here again, the timing of those visits is pretty predictable dependent upon the signing and ratification of the same treaty.


Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

When we consider all of the above information it begs the question, "was someone buying something, or paying for something, in connection to the Adams Onis Treaty?"

And since the original Beale story is "possibly" leading us to the region in question....... The unknown author has simply asked us to make the "connexion".

 

[lastleg]

There is a large important river missing on your map.

 

[tat2guy]

There is a large important river missing on your map.

There are two key rivers coming from that area that lead to that river. Check out the Stephen Hiram Long expiditions.

 

[bigscoop]

There is a large important river missing on your map.

I know. This map doesn't show those details. I've looked for one that includes those details within the ceded region in question but I've not found one.

 

[ECS]

Here's one map detailing the region in question:
View attachment 1016628View attachment 1016629
Prior to the Adams Onis Treaty the region in question was Spanish territory, or at the very least a region in dispute between Spain & the US. As part of the Adams Onis Treaty this region was ceded to the US.

What's interesting here is this: "If" the Beale deposits were real then let's take a closer look at the timeliness of those deposits in relationship to the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty:

Treaty signing date: February 1819
First Deposit date: November 1819 (nine months after treaty signing)

Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
Second Deposit date: December 1821 (ten months after treaty ratification)

When we look at the dates above it almost appears as if the deposits were "possibly" installments dependent upon objectives surrounding the signing and ratification of the Adams Onis Treaty.

Now let's add Beale's visits to Bedford. Here again, the timing of those visits is pretty predictable dependent upon the signing and ratification of the same treaty.


Treaty signing date: February 1819
(9 months)
First Deposit date: November 1819
(2 months)
Beale’s first visit: January 1820
11 months
Treaty’s Rat. Date: February 1821
(10 months)
Second Deposit date: December 1821
(1 month)
Beale’s second visit: January 1822
11 months

When we consider all of the above information it begs the question, "was someone buying something, or paying for something, in connection to the Adams Onis Treaty?"

And since the original Beale story is "possibly" leading us to the region in question....... The unknown author has simply asked us to make the "connexion".

Are working from the premise that story in the 1885 "Beale Papers" was a true account of an actual T J Beale expedition?

 

[bigscoop]

Are working from the premise that story in the 1885 "Beale Papers" was a true account of an actual T J Beale expedition?

No. Not as it was written. However, there are a few things we're looking into that we're now very curious about. Been exchanging e-mails and info all evening in regards to this "possible situation" just to see where it might go?

 

[lastleg]

The sources mentioned explained how Spain had over-expanded its nation-building campaign. Sound
familiar? The colonies in S.A. were in rebellion, debts rising at an alarming rate. They were going
broke hunting gold. The gulf coast and Florida had no gold except what they could steal off natives.
Why not just sell the American territories and recoup something out of it?

This is when nations started rethinking their foreign policies. England had its butt kicked by the
pesky colonists, Florida couldn't be defended from the Seminoles or whites either. Besides it
didn't even have a fountain of youth after all.

 

[bigscoop]

The sources mentioned explained how Spain had over-expanded its nation-building campaign. Sound
familiar? The colonies in S.A. were in rebellion, debts rising at an alarming rate. They were going
broke hunting gold. The gulf coast and Florida had no gold except what they could steal off natives.
Why not just sell the American territories and recoup something out of it?

This is when nations started rethinking their foreign policies. England had its butt kicked by the
pesky colonists, Florida couldn't be defended from the Seminoles or whites either. Besides it
didn't even have a fountain of youth after all.

If only it had all been that simple. I think in order to have a fair hand on the many issues and dealings leading up to the Adams Onis Treaty, the Monroe Doctrine, the Treaty of 1815, etc., we need to go all the way back to the Louisiana Purchase and the events leading up to that purchase.

 

[lastleg]

I won't have time to explain all that to you this morning. Got a call to take a route on Meals on Wheels.
While I'm doing that I'll try to come up with a simple explanation.

 

[bigscoop]

I won't have time to explain all that to you this morning. Got a call to take a route on Meals on Wheels.
While I'm doing that I'll try to come up with a simple explanation.

Just send me the volumes upon volumes of materials and I'll read through them as I have time. Just don't send them all at once because I only have a cleaned out 14 x 14 room to store a portion of it in.

 

[tat2guy]

Some one please remind me what Purcells full name is. Thanks Tat

 

[Rebel - KGC]

!

 

[tat2guy]

Purcell from pikes expiditions

 

[bigscoop]

He and his three brothers and their wife's names were in my book, "Diary of Thomas J. Beall"

I don't think this qualifies as an answer. Tat, info should be in your e-mail.

 

[bigscoop]

Here Tat, some general info on Pike/Purcell
The Lost Mine of Dead Man's Gulch