✅ SOLVED Any Ideas what this Brass item is??

[BuckleBoy]

Hello All,

I found two of these items--flat brass items with two holes for rivets/nails in them. They looked at the time like they would have some sort of stamping on them, but both are plain... The older one has some design and it is cast. It also has a part of an old nail still in one hole of it...








I found this one online that was stamped "CS" from a CW camp--the finder at the site says that it's a "watch fob" but it obviously isn't...and it's the same dimensions as the plain oval one I found (pictured above). I'm not suggesting that these are war related, but I'm just wondering what the heck they are...



http://www.midtenrelics.com/buttons.htm (See #2, second photo...)


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

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[johnnyi]

Silver searcher, I'm presently dumping crates of 35 years of finds trying to find more of the of the u shaped pieces, which until this discussion I had not considered "worthy" of cataloguing properly (maybe I'll take a photo of one chest dumped and you'll get an idea of what a project this is ) At any rate, one of the other posters pictured the same "u"s already, we have seen them attached already, and we know for sure they go on the front (engraved side) of the fitting. They come in various shapes: some are pretty basic u shape,, others are wider with a rounded front, etc. and they have already been pictured in previous posts. They are all exactly the same though when it comes to their spacing and how they are fitted (which I will explain)

Every "u" (they are all brass) bear the remnants of iron which was either screwed or pressed into their two "prongs". This takes place on the backside of the entire fitting. We have seen this already.

The things we are looking at here are, as you mentioned (and I mentioned earlier also) are countersunk on their back side. (the side opposite the engraving or cast design). As you said, this would make one think that a screw fit from the back, which it probably does. What I believe is happening is that the "u" is placed through the plate object; that is then placed upon leather or whatever material it is fastened on, and then the screw (or rivet) is inserted. My guess would be that the countersink is there to allow the leather or other material to be pressed flush when the screw is inserted.

If this was the reason for the countersunk holes, it might imply that a flush back was necessary to prevent wear or discomfort to whatever the leather or other material was resting on. (I don't think it would be a saddle for that reason, as saddles were usually well padded.) It could however be an unknown to us harness fitting, belt fitting, shoe fitting, where the leather was against the skin.

We know one more thing. these two objects are almost never found intact in one piece. When the iron finally goes they naturally separate and they fall apart (as there is nothing but that iron to hold them together) . The fact that a couple of us found these two objects temporarily intact would suggest then, that the whole piece of leather, or a portion of the leather that bore the fitting was lost or discarded in these rare cases.

 

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[scratcher]

Hi guys, I've been away for awhile but thought I would chime in again since I see this topic has been resurrected again. The last one of these I found a couple months or so ago might help. It has the U shaped piece intact but it isn't brass. It is iron. My bet is that this one at least was pounded into a saddle tree. To me that makes the most sense and explains the countersinking on the opposite side. It would allow the piece to lay flatter against the leather. Trying to find pics of saddles this old to prove or disprove this is going to be tough, though. It doesn't seem there are many surviving examples.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Silver searcher, I'm presently dumping crates of 35 years of finds trying to find more of the of the u shaped pieces, which until this discussion I had not considered "worthy" of cataloguing properly (maybe I'll take a photo of one chest dumped and you'll get an idea of what a project this is ) At any rate, one of the other posters pictured the same "u"s already, we have seen them attached already, and we know for sure they go on the front (engraved side) of the fitting. They come in various shapes: some are pretty basic u shape,, others are wider with a rounded front, etc. and they have already been pictured in previous posts. They are all exactly the same though when it comes to their spacing and how they are fitted (which I will explain)

Every "u" (they are all brass) bear the remnants of iron which was either screwed or pressed into their two "prongs". This takes place on the backside of the entire fitting. We have seen this already.

The things we are looking at here are, as you mentioned (and I mentioned earlier also) are countersunk on their back side. (the side opposite the engraving or cast design). As you said, this would make one think that a screw fit from the back, which it probably does. What I believe is happening is that the "u" is placed through the plate object; that is then placed upon leather or whatever material it is fastened on, and then the screw (or rivet) is inserted. My guess would be that the countersink is there to allow the leather or other material to be pressed flush when the screw is inserted.

If this was the reason for the countersunk holes, it might imply that a flush back was necessary to prevent wear or discomfort to whatever the leather or other material was resting on. (I don't think it would be a saddle for that reason, as saddles were usually well padded.) It could however be an unknown to us harness fitting, belt fitting, shoe fitting, where the leather was against the skin.

We know one more thing. these two objects are almost never found intact in one piece. When the iron finally goes they naturally separate and they fall apart (as there is nothing but that iron to hold them together) . The fact that a couple of us found these two objects temporarily intact would suggest then, that the whole piece of leather, or a portion of the leather that bore the fitting was lost or discarded in these rare cases.

Jonny...

sorry to cause you all the work I will be going through my buckets as well to see if I have anything similar so are you saying you think they arn't horse related then

I think they could be hand made what about you

SS.

 

[johnnyi]

SS, no trouble at all. I love trying to figure this stuff out. As far as these things being homemade goes, I guess in a sense they are, as they all seem to be cast, the same as the way shoe buckles are cast. They also seem to have been mass produced, as evidenced by the match between one of crusader's more ornate finds (post 8000 pg. 1) and one of mine (pg 2).

Scratcher's new find showing the square staple intact with the shield makes me think I was wrong about these being applied to leather. This find of scratcher's looks jury rigged, as the square doesn't seem to match the round hole, which I guess says that these were necessary to replace when they broke. Leddel's post #167 also shows an example of a square hole which might have had one of these staples rather than the fancier brass u and whatever iron went into the back of it.

Looking at scratcher's new find, plus one of his examples of a "u" (post 79) it seems that these extensions on the back side are too long for just a piece of leather, and are as you say, meant to be driven into wood. Maybe you're right that they are saddle fittings, but saddles of the day were pretty simple unlike western saddles, and we have yet to find any pictures that show these devices. Why would we find so many if this was not something that is there right before our eyes that we have yet to recognise?

If the prongs are too long for bridle fittings and we can't find them on saddles, could they possibly have been used on carriages, maybe to secure the canvas with a strsap and buckle?

 

[Don in SJ]

I really can not say what they are for sure, but will go with the flow. I went through my junk boxes and came up with the ones I just photographed. I seem to have one of those bars, not certain, but sure seems like it would be part of one of those, not necessarily one of the 2 holed pieces I have found, but I do believe it is the type we are discussing. Mine has a nice decoration on it..........

Don

ADDED: I am most certain all of mine finds in the photos attached were found at sites that date from 1790's to no later than 1850s, and were all wooded homestead sites.

 

[johnnyi]

Don, those are the same exact bars (with designs also) that we have found (at least two basically attached). I've been rooting through my junk chests too and managed today to finally find one of the odder fittings that go with these shields which similar (or identical) to the one Scratcher has in his scan.

 

[Rob-IL]

Hello, I have also found these and have posted them here in the past. Mine have been found at circa 1812 period sites. If you look closely at them (at least mine anyway) you will see the tapered hole isn't drilled but made in (during) casting, then the thin hole web is apparently punched out. Any thoughts??

 

[johnnyi]

Interesting fact Rob. I guess it means that the countersinking is not a factor when trying to figure these out, as it is apparently there to make facilitating the correct hole size for the u an easier task when it comes to drilling or punching? What do you think?

 

[Rob-IL]

Hi John, the thing I have noticed on these is it seems like the holes are not perfect like conventional drilling would leave. The holes are apparently punched out. It is my belief that the taper is done during casting to where a thin web is left and then the web is punched out for the finished product. Just my thoughts anyway. Take Care, Rob

 

[BuckleBoy]

"picture 2 of your plates shows that the holes are counter sunk, as if they have had screws to attach them to me they are either blanking plates for a lock, or they could be brass id plates for someones initials, perhaps on the stock of a gun"


silver searcher , I think you missed reading a few of the posts. These gimmicks had a "u" shaped piece of metal attached to the front side. I know because I found one intact, as did someone else. Most of us have found the same "u" piece in areas where we've found the plates that go with them. No way these are blanking plates for a lock or id plates. That we know definately.

Fair enough

but don't know how you can say no way they are blanking plates or id plates, as they very well could be

Man, this has been a busy thread while I've been off the forum for a few days! I really don't think that these were ID plates, silver searcher--and as I told relicdude in earlier replies to this thread, the reason is simple--out of all of these items that we've found, I've seen only one that was marked or stamped with anything in the way of an ID. One other example was posted to this thread, but it was stamped brass, not cast, although it was similar in shape.


I am wondering... if all of these had the U-shaped piece on them, why haven't we been finding equal numbers of them? Perhaps it is because only the two-hole pieces get saved as a "keeper."

Hi John, the thing I have noticed on these is it seems like the holes are not perfect like conventional drilling would leave. The holes are apparently punched out. It is my belief that the taper is done during casting to where a thin web is left and then the web is punched out for the finished product. Just my thoughts anyway. Take Care, Rob

This is a possibility that I hadn't considered before. Since not all had the countersinking, then you're right--it may not be that important that something fit flush against it. I am looking through the brass bin for some of those U-shaped pieces. I think I may have found one before, but not as many as the two-hole items. If the brass piece fit on a saddle and a strap went through, then you'd think we'd be finding the U-shaped pieces More frequently than the two-holed pieces.

Don, thank you for the interesting new examples. I like the decorated U-shaped piece.

I think this one is solveable.

 

[Silver Searcher]

"picture 2 of your plates shows that the holes are counter sunk, as if they have had screws to attach them to me they are either blanking plates for a lock, or they could be brass id plates for someones initials, perhaps on the stock of a gun"


silver searcher , I think you missed reading a few of the posts. These gimmicks had a "u" shaped piece of metal attached to the front side. I know because I found one intact, as did someone else. Most of us have found the same "u" piece in areas where we've found the plates that go with them. No way these are blanking plates for a lock or id plates. That we know definately.

Fair enough

but don't know how you can say no way they are blanking plates or id plates, as they very well could be

Man, this has been a busy thread while I've been off the forum for a few days! I really don't think that these were ID plates, silver searcher--and as I told relicdude in earlier replies to this thread, the reason is simple--out of all of these items that we've found, I've seen only one that was marked or stamped with anything in the way of an ID. One other example was posted to this thread, but it was stamped brass, not cast, although it was similar in shape.


I am wondering... if all of these had the U-shaped piece on them, why haven't we been finding equal numbers of them? Perhaps it is because only the two-hole pieces get saved as a "keeper."

Yes it has buckles and now you have got everybody searching through there buckets of old finds looking for them

including me

 

[johnnyi]

"I am wondering... if all of these had the U-shaped piece on them, why haven't we been finding equal numbers of them? Perhaps it is because only the two-hole pieces get saved as a "keeper.""

We're probably not finding quite as many because they are both irregular and contain iron, so they'd be borderrline signals. Plus as you said, we tend to junk the things that don't look "cool".

 

[CRUSADER]

"I am wondering... if all of these had the U-shaped piece on them, why haven't we been finding equal numbers of them? Perhaps it is because only the two-hole pieces get saved as a "keeper.""

We're probably not finding quite as many because they are both irregular and contain iron, so they'd be borderrline signals. Plus as you said, we tend to junk the things that don't look "cool".

Well, that partly true, I probably only keep the decorated ones. However, I dig lots of iron in the fields & love iffy signals, & still have only found them in the following ratio 2:3 (U:Plates).

 

[coinmaster2db]

Hey BB. This is my first post ever in t-net. The silence is broken. I'm thinking that I've seen similar pieces used to join two pieces of wood on older furniture items. It was obviously a common item. Any person who was alive during that era should be able to identify it easily.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Hey BB. This is my first post ever in t-net. The silence is broken. I'm thinking that I've seen similar pieces used to join two pieces of wood on older furniture items. It was obviously a common item. Any person who was alive during that era should be able to identify it easily.

Welcome to Tnet, my friend. You certainly picked a heck of a thread to post your first reply on. :P

I will try to find someone alive during that era and ask them.


Always good to hear from a fellow Iron Brigade guy.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Hey BB. This is my first post ever in t-net. The silence is broken. I'm thinking that I've seen similar pieces used to join two pieces of wood on older furniture items. It was obviously a common item. Any person who was alive during that era should be able to identify it easily.

Welcome to Tnet, my friend. You certainly picked a heck of a thread to post your first reply on. :P

I will try to find someone alive during that era and ask them.


Always good to hear from a fellow Iron Brigade guy.

BB..

found these on UK Finds Data Base...strap guide.

Circa 18th-19th Century

SS.

 

[BuckleBoy]

BB..

found these on UK Finds Data Base...strap guide.

Circa 18th-19th Century

SS.

Sounds like a reputable website. I think you now qualify as a "hero" and I can mark this one solved. Were these strap guides a piece of horse furniture?

 

[Silver Searcher]

Yes BB...Horse Furniture

SS.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Thanks Silver Searcher for your time and effort to get this one solved. I just wanted a reputable source with an ID of these items. Is the database something that I can view on the internet, or does it require membership?

A BIG thank-you to Scratcher as well, who first came up with the idea of putting the two pieces together (the two holed plate and the u-shaped bar) back in reply #80.

Well done, my friends.



Regards,



Buckles

 

[Silver Searcher]

Thanks Silver Searcher for your time and effort to get this one solved. I just wanted a reputable source with an ID of these items. Is the database something that I can view on the internet, or does it require membership?

A BIG thank-you to Scratcher as well, who first came up with the idea of putting the two pieces together (the two holed plate and the u-shaped bar) back in reply #80.

Well done, my friends.



Regards,



Buckles

http://www.ukdfd.co.uk/ukdfddata/index.php

Artifacts Post Medieval...Horse Furniture.

SS.