✅ SOLVED Any Ideas what this Brass item is??

[BuckleBoy]

Hello All,

I found two of these items--flat brass items with two holes for rivets/nails in them. They looked at the time like they would have some sort of stamping on them, but both are plain... The older one has some design and it is cast. It also has a part of an old nail still in one hole of it...








I found this one online that was stamped "CS" from a CW camp--the finder at the site says that it's a "watch fob" but it obviously isn't...and it's the same dimensions as the plain oval one I found (pictured above). I'm not suggesting that these are war related, but I'm just wondering what the heck they are...



http://www.midtenrelics.com/buttons.htm (See #2, second photo...)


Regards,


Buckleboy

 

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[leddel]

here's a recent one i just picked up last weekend at an older colonial cellar hole (from other finds there i'd say early 1700's to early 1800's )house site was gone before and 1840's map was made . its designed and from what looks like silver tinned at one time and the back has counter sunk holes ?

Dan

 

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[Kevo_DFX]

I have followed this thread for a long time with interest. I have no examples of this particular item myself, though I do have any idea:

Whatever it is, it was common in both the America's and Europe during the late 1700's to early 1800's.
Whatever it is, almost every single example has no writing on it. In my mind, for every blank ID tag that was lost, there should be 100's more that had something stamped on them. We find one example of a stamp. To me, this means they are not MEANT to be an ID tag.

I agree that it is horse tack, I know of nothing else that could have seen such widespread use and be so uniform.

Is it possible we are looking at the wrong side of the saddle? I do not ride horses, but I know there are things attached to saddles. Horns, straps, bags, stirrups, etc. Is it possible that these whatsits were placed on the underside of the saddle to stop some sort of post from peing pulled INTO the saddle? Metal post through holes in brass thing, posts shoved up through saddle, bag or horn or stirrup attached. When the attached thing became load-bearing, the whatsit prevented the post from sinking into the leather.

Why you folks find them? The metal post break after so much weather and use.
The one with the handle looking thing still attached? The saddle ripped.
The one with the initials? The saddle's owner wanted to mark his saddle to prevent theft.

Do I make sense?

Kevo

 

[Ohio Jerry]

I have followed this thread for a long time with interest. I have no examples of this particular item myself, though I do have any idea:

Whatever it is, it was common in both the America's and Europe during the late 1700's to early 1800's.
Whatever it is, almost every single example has no writing on it. In my mind, for every blank ID tag that was lost, there should be 100's more that had something stamped on them. We find one example of a stamp. To me, this means they are not MEANT to be an ID tag.

I agree that it is horse tack, I know of nothing else that could have seen such widespread use and be so uniform.

Is it possible we are looking at the wrong side of the saddle? I do not ride horses, but I know there are things attached to saddles. Horns, straps, bags, stirrups, etc. Is it possible that these whatsits were placed on the underside of the saddle to stop some sort of post from peing pulled INTO the saddle? Metal post through holes in brass thing, posts shoved up through saddle, bag or horn or stirrup attached. When the attached thing became load-bearing, the whatsit prevented the post from sinking into the leather.

Why you folks find them? The metal post break after so much weather and use.
The one with the handle looking thing still attached? The saddle ripped.
The one with the initials? The saddle's owner wanted to mark his saddle to prevent theft.

Do I make sense?

Kevo

You do make sense and a good point for it being some sort of horse tack,that is what i've leaned towards all along, but we have yet to find an antique saddle or piece of horse tack that shows one of these pieces attached so we can say "Thats it!!"

 

[BuckleBoy]

I have followed this thread for a long time with interest. I have no examples of this particular item myself, though I do have any idea:

Whatever it is, it was common in both the America's and Europe during the late 1700's to early 1800's.
Whatever it is, almost every single example has no writing on it. In my mind, for every blank ID tag that was lost, there should be 100's more that had something stamped on them. We find one example of a stamp. To me, this means they are not MEANT to be an ID tag.

I agree that it is horse tack, I know of nothing else that could have seen such widespread use and be so uniform.

Is it possible we are looking at the wrong side of the saddle? I do not ride horses, but I know there are things attached to saddles. Horns, straps, bags, stirrups, etc. Is it possible that these whatsits were placed on the underside of the saddle to stop some sort of post from peing pulled INTO the saddle? Metal post through holes in brass thing, posts shoved up through saddle, bag or horn or stirrup attached. When the attached thing became load-bearing, the whatsit prevented the post from sinking into the leather.

Why you folks find them? The metal post break after so much weather and use.
The one with the handle looking thing still attached? The saddle ripped.
The one with the initials? The saddle's owner wanted to mark his saddle to prevent theft.

Do I make sense?

Kevo

You do make sense and a good point for it being some sort of horse tack,that is what i've leaned towards all along, but we have yet to find an antique saddle or piece of horse tack that shows one of these pieces attached so we can say "Thats it!!"

Excellent reply, Kevo. I agree. And I think that we'll find a photo of a saddle with one of these pieces on it eventually. I PM'ed mudslideslim and he told me that the only things found in the area he found his were CW camp related. So perhaps a few of these made it into the CW on saddles, even though their heyday was at least 40 or 50 years earlier.


Regards,



Buckles

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Is this of any help from horsesoldier.com?


GETTYSBURG RELIC SADDLE SHIELD

Recovered at farm off Taneytown Rd. Gettysburg. Measures 1.75 in length, 1.5" in width, and is Stamped "11 � Inch/ Seat". Includes two small attachments. Exhibits medium corrosion & dirt. Else VG.


(R15221) $195.00
Price: $195.00
Quantity: 1
LookUp Code: R15221
Shipping: Determined by method & location of buyer
Inquire: Inquiry
To Order: Call 717-334-0347, Fax 717-334-5016 or E-mail [email protected]

 

[BuckleBoy]

Is this of any help from horsesoldier.com?


GETTYSBURG RELIC SADDLE SHIELD

Recovered at farm off Taneytown Rd. Gettysburg. Measures 1.75 in length, 1.5" in width, and is Stamped "11 � Inch/ Seat". Includes two small attachments. Exhibits medium corrosion & dirt. Else VG.


(R15221) $195.00
Price: $195.00
Quantity: 1
LookUp Code: R15221
Shipping: Determined by method & location of buyer
Inquire: Inquiry
To Order: Call 717-334-0347, Fax 717-334-5016 or E-mail [email protected]

Reply #96 shows the placement of these items on the saddle. The possibility had come up, but never been ruled out (and indeed still seems likely) that these pieces attached to the saddle and a strap went through. The ones on most saddles have a slot on them like the one in your reply. The saddle shield ID is correct for the shield shaped item.

 

[IronSpike]

Understand the examples posted represents multiple usages. Here's a link with a good example of saddle strap usage:

http://www.cochiseleather.com/used-saddles.aspx

 

[johnnyi]

Buckleboy, I have found many of these of all designs which I'll try to scan for you tonight. A long "u" shaped piece of metal accompanies the part you found, the two ends go through, and it leaves a space for a leather strap. It is the ends of the "U" shaped piece that do the attaching. Like you, I have yet to find what exact part of a harness (?) they come from, but considering that I've found them all in farm field I'm inclined to believe harness rather than saddle. I'll post scans tonight after I dig some out. Incidently, they are always ornamented, and the spacing between the holes is always the same regardless of design.

 

[johnnyi]

Buckleboy, I've been ripping the place apart trying to find the box with the "u" shaped piece in it. No luck yet, but it is here somewhere! dang! Anyway, it is not like the one pictured in the previous posts on the saddle, or for the saddle. The piece that goes on this thing we find is cast brass. It has remnants of iron on its two base posts as if it were fastened with iron to the devices we find (whatever the heck they are).

One of the ones here still has the iron going through the holes, and all but two show rust around the holes on the back. If we all were to check the objects we have, we'd probably see residue of iron on the back side of most. Almost all of mine have rust on the back. Another thing; some of the ones are countersunk on the back and some are not. This confuses things even more, as this can occur on two diffferent objects of the exact shape and design where one is countersunk and one isn't!!!

It may be that we are rarely finding the missing part (that I drew here) because it is so irregular and usually has iron on it like mine did, producing a really lousy signal. Plus such things by themselves look pretty much like junk. Anyway, I hope the rust "clue" may lead us somewhere . I'll try to dig up the part if I can find it.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Buckleboy, I have found many of these of all designs which I'll try to scan for you tonight. A long "u" shaped piece of metal accompanies the part you found, the two ends go through, and it leaves a space for a leather strap. It is the ends of the "U" shaped piece that do the attaching. Like you, I have yet to find what exact part of a harness (?) they come from, but considering that I've found them all in farm field I'm inclined to believe harness rather than saddle. I'll post scans tonight after I dig some out. Incidently, they are always ornamented, and the spacing between the holes is always the same regardless of design.

The second row, right side--that is one like Crusader posted to this thread on up in the replies.

Iron Spike--thank you for the link. The photo on the right shows an almost identical piece on the saddle. Is that our mystery piece? A saddle strap went through it? I think this might explain the oval ones. It seems like the other ones' functions are a mystery still, unless they were all used for the same purpose (?) It seems like the best shape for something to put a strap through would be rounded rather than angular or ornamental in shape, so that it wouldn't cause undue wear on the strap. Another puzzler is the fact that there are iron stains on so many of these, as johnny indicates in the post above. That seems like an odd choice for vintage horse tack--when even the rivets or "pack studs" are made of brass to avoid them rusting out.

I am going to contact two specialists in 18th c. reproduction firearms and saddles this week, and see if they can shed any more light on these finds.


Best Wishes,



Buckles

 

[BuckleBoy]

johnny--does that piece look like one leddel posted in reply #87 on the first page? These are very similar to the piece on the much newer saddle in Iron Spike's link up above.


Regards,


Buckles

 

[johnnyi]

Buckleboy, man, I missed some of these posts when I scanned through. Scratcher nailed it on his post 77 with his first and second example , and crusader has a perfect picture of it on his post 7737, but for some reason it is called a "drawer pull" (because it looks like one . That very same exact piece crusader shows, even including a design, is what I found with my whatsit plate shield thingy. (no drawer pull though unless for doll furniture!)
Anyway, the rust is the key; the way it was attached with iron. I don't see any way these could be saddle furniture, as we are finding way way too many of them in too many unusual places for that. The fact they are all decorated is also significant.

 

[BuckleBoy]

Buckleboy, man, I missed some of these posts when I scanned through. Scratcher nailed it on his post 77 with his first and second example , and crusader has a perfect picture of it on his post 7737, but for some reason it is called a "drawer pull" (because it looks like one . That very same exact piece crusader shows, even including a design, is what I found with my whatsit plate shield thingy. (no drawer pull though unless for doll furniture!)
Anyway, the rust is the key; the way it was attached with iron. I don't see any way these could be saddle furniture, as we are finding way way too many of them in too many unusual places for that. The fact they are all decorated is also significant.

Yeah, I do think the iron attachment makes it a poor choice for saddle furniture.

 

[CRUSADER]

http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,261392.0/topicseen.html
Interesting location of the above, plus the fairly standard 22mm gap!

 

[johnnyi]

Here's just a review of what we know so far....

1) We've found them on sites which date around the colonial period and just after.
2) We've found many of them, and they are about as common as shoe buckles, and we find about the same ratio.
3) We know they are both functional and decorative, as almost all are engraved with a design, and sometimes silvered.
4) We know that a "U" shaped piece definately fits on the engraved side. (I found one basically intact, as did someone else here) (*that "u" is also usually engrved with a design)
5) We know that the "U" shaped piece is brass, yet the whole arrangement attached with iron rivets.
6) the spacing for what can be assumed to be a strap is always the same.

I think we can rule out "saddles", "gun slings", etc., if for no other reason than we are finding these in greater numbers than we would for those fittings. Harness fittings can probably be ruled out also, as these things we find are all engraved or cast with designs of different degrees of ornateness, and if they were purely functional we'd find a good number of simpler examples which we are not finding.

I'm wondering if there might have been a transitional period right after shoe buckles (but before laces) which we're not aware of, when straps or a strap was used and secured from flapping by one of these. Such devices would probably be uniform and easily broken off and lost. That period of footware seems pretty obscure when you try to "google" results for the history of men's shoes or boots. Just a guess based on what we do know.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Hey BB, here is mine found at a Rev Site in NC. I was told they are called (excuse me if its spelled wrong) Escutcheon plates. a rifle part.

Escutcheon Plate:
1. Heraldry A shield or shield-shaped emblem bearing a coat of arms.
2. An ornamental or protective plate, as for a keyhole.
3. Nautical The plate on the stern of a ship inscribed with the ship's name

Its unlikely to be any of the above, especially a rifle part. Its horse related, in my opinion.

I think they're horse-related too, but we haven't been able to find one listed anywhere yet. It seems that these items should not be so hard to find in a book or online non-dug somewhere, since they are so prevalent in the U.S. and Europe.

After looking again at the photos of saddles posted here, I strongly suspect that they're some sort of saddle brass. I'm not to the stage yet where I'm willing to offer a Reward for an ID, but I'm getting there. 8)


-Buckles

Don't agree that they are horse related :P

picture 2 of your plates shows that the holes are counter sunk, as if they have had screws to attach them to me they are either blanking plates for a lock, or they could be brass id plates for someones initials, perhaps on the stock of a gun

just my three -penn'orth

SS.

 

[johnnyi]

"picture 2 of your plates shows that the holes are counter sunk, as if they have had screws to attach them to me they are either blanking plates for a lock, or they could be brass id plates for someones initials, perhaps on the stock of a gun"


silver searcher , I think you missed reading a few of the posts. These gimmicks had a "u" shaped piece of metal attached to the front side. I know because I found one intact, as did someone else. Most of us have found the same "u" piece in areas where we've found the plates that go with them. No way these are blanking plates for a lock or id plates. That we know definately.

 

[Silver Searcher]

"picture 2 of your plates shows that the holes are counter sunk, as if they have had screws to attach them to me they are either blanking plates for a lock, or they could be brass id plates for someones initials, perhaps on the stock of a gun"


silver searcher , I think you missed reading a few of the posts. These gimmicks had a "u" shaped piece of metal attached to the front side. I know because I found one intact, as did someone else. Most of us have found the same "u" piece in areas where we've found the plates that go with them. No way these are blanking plates for a lock or id plates. That we know definately.

Fair enough

but don't know how you can say no way they are blanking plates or id plates, as they very well could be

 

[johnnyi]

silver searcher, the thing is that we've already found the two pieces together. The "u" fits over the front into the two holes. i've seen it myself when coming out of the ground , as another poster has. In other words, they are one half of a two piece fitting. That much we do know.

 

[Silver Searcher]

silver searcher, the thing is that we've already found the two pieces together. The "u" fits over the front into the two holes. i've seen it myself when coming out of the ground , as another poster has. In other words, they are one half of a two piece fitting. That much we do know.

I here what you say, and I don't wish to be negative, but the holes in picture two are conical countersunk, to me that's a screw fitting hole, but heh it's a great discussion