ANCIENT VOICES: Ditlihi's Journey Into The Truth Of Ancient Treasure In The Southwest

[Ditlihi]

To your point, my dearest..

Well, I don’t want to become guilty of putting words in anybody’s mouth, or thoughts in their head. I only state what I see. The choice is individual thereafter. Some will see it and some will not. When it comes to interpretation, that again is a matter of individual perception and Free Will.

It’s nobody’s place to dictate what part of your brain you should use…the right side, left side, all sides, no side at all….etc, etc, etc. Most people that have spent enough time studying any choice of subjects, have already an inclination or bias of their own. Follow up on that hunch, or discard.

All I can say with ease, is the fact that there is ample evidence of different cultures coming in contact with each other, thus creating the phenomenon of “cultural diffusion” all over the world. Also, that this phenomenon took place in a perpetual motion long before it was observed and documented by the known history.
There are also instances, when such diffusion took place and was nobody’s task or interest to document it.

Therefore. since you are the Investigator, it is your job to make sense of all this,…my dear Melusina. Good work so far, I dare say.
...and we love you for that reason. Keep it up.


edit....Chief,...."Chief Investigator"......I should have said. By All merits. (time, dedication et all)

Part and parcel of a journey is the people you meet along the way, the places/sights you see, and the things you learn from it. I have been blessed so far in all three. Even so, I am not ready to cast judgement on what I have observed so far. There are many 'miles' to go and questions to answer before I dare to attempt putting this puzzle together. My instincts tell me there is much more to this, and I'm looking forward to Dog's return so we can get back on the trail. We are only getting started, and I'm so revved about just this tip of the iceberg. I can't imagine what is around the next corner, and can't wait to find out, lol.

Sigh, patience dear Prudence. Pffft. Lol

 

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[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

I just got a report from the oldest of my three younger sisters, that the middle sister is between two roads that are now being flooded by the Arkansas River.

It is getting uncomfortable already. They live on a slightly plane, but will be cut off at some point.

 

[Ditlihi]

The old one-two punch: how are you with Stage II: Cognitive Dissonance?

About the same as Sybil was, I treat it by talking to the Ward Psychologist. You taking any new patients??

Seriously though, you've witnessed my anger issues, lol, obviously I struggle with it. But lots of white chocolate and good wine tends to help.

 

[Ditlihi]

I just got a report from the oldest of my three younger sisters, that the middle sister is between two roads that are now being flooded by the Arkansas River.

It is getting uncomfortable already. They live on a slightly plane, but will be cut off at some point.

Do they have somewhere to go should they be able to leave now and get out? I recommend it, even if they have to call in rescue. It ain't even close to cresting, they predict well over 40' by Sunday. Praying!

 

[Maverick1]

Part and parcel of a journey is the people you meet along the way, the places/sights you see, and the things you learn from it. I have been blessed so far in all three. Even so, I am not ready to cast judgement on what I have observed so far. There are many 'miles' to go and questions to answer before I dare to attempt putting this puzzle together. My instincts tell me there is much more to this, and I'm looking forward to Dog's return so we can get back on the trail. We are only getting started, and I'm so revved about just this tip of the iceberg. I can't imagine what is around the next corner, and can't wait to find out, lol.

Sigh, patience dear Prudence. Pffft. Lol

Nobody expects any lesser of you, Khaleesi. You got your hands full for sure, and the world was not created in one day either.

Regardless of Aesop and his sour grapes, if that fox had a ladder mr Aesop would be out of business. Nobody would remember him.
But, you do have a ladder and know how to use it. It just takes a little time.
Cornucopia here we come.....

 

[mdog]

That_was_Awesome. Thank you Mdog!


Some possible examples of Aztec/Mayan Sacrificial Ceremony.....


View attachment 1715554 View attachment 1715555

Thanks Dit. Are the carvings in bas-relief?

 

[Maverick1]

The old one-two punch: how are you with Stage II: Cognitive Dissonance?

Is this an invitation to π-π contest? or just sour grapes?


Dit. hates pie-pie or pi-pi contests

 

[mdog]

The first pic, left side arrow, is a figure holding a shield in one hand and a severed head w/ feathers in the other hand.

Arrow on left: correction, arrow on right is a snarling Jaguar head and chest carved in relief. Can't figure what that is above his head in the sunlit square....maybe a human heart??


2nd pic is what I thought at first was a Priest standing next to his own decapitated head. Nothing to really indicate "Priest", was essjust my first impression. He has had at least one eye gouged out with bloody lines radiating from it in a sun like pattern. Ick.

Both of these are within the same setting.

The Mississippian culture also had artwork that showed warriors, wearing headress and holding a mace in one hand and a severed head in the other.

A heart was the first thing I thought of, in the lit square.

 

[mdog]

It's late and I'm really stretching now....yawn....


Shield Jaguar (Itzamnaaj Bʼalam II)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Itzamnaaj_Bʼalam_II

Itzamnaaj Bʼalam II was a Maya king who ruled in Yaxchilan from 681 until he died in the year 742. He is also called Shield Jaguar II by modern writers and commonly referred to simply as Shield Jaguar based on his name glyph before the phonetic name was deciphered.



View attachment 1715563

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'Nite all.....

Thank you. Great stuff here.

 

[mdog]

I wondered if you would be posting an interesting lookie-like. Ha ha. Reminds me of this guy:

View attachment 1715585

Or, better yet:

View attachment 1715613

Good pictures, Sdc. Thanks. Who’s the guy holding his head? John the Baptist, maybe.

 

[Ditlihi]

Thanks Dit. Are the carvings in bas-relief?

The Mississippian culture also had artwork that showed warriors, wearing headless and holding a mace in one hand and a severed head in the other.

A heart was the first thing I thought of, in the lit square.

Yes, it's a Bas (low) Relief carving. Actually, surprisingly well done.

The Mississippian came to mind, but did they wear leggings? This one obviously has leg coverings.

 

[releventchair]

Good pictures, Sdc. Thanks. Who’s the guy holding his head? John the Baptist, maybe.

Saint Denis A possibility too , if French influence is possible. Post canonization he is usually depicted with angelic wings.

 

[mdog]

Yes, it's a Bas (low) Relief carving. Actually, surprisingly well done.

The Mississippian came to mind, but did they wear leggings? This one obviously has leg coverings.

Bas-relief is good. I’ve seen pictures, of carved images, that show some type of leggings or high boot.

 

[Maverick1]

Saint Denis A possibility too , if French influence is possible. Post canonization he is usually depicted with angelic wings.

Yes, ...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denis


and others too...


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cephalophore

 

[sdcfia]

Saint Denis A possibility too , if French influence is possible. Post canonization he is usually depicted with angelic wings.

Right, it's Denis, preaching his headless sermon. Kind of a weird sight decorating the downstream side of Notre Dame. If you think that's odd, check out this guy inside the cathedral, towards the back. Kinda spooky reptilian imagery, huh? I doubt there's much French influence in rural Luna County, but Chacmool might be a better fit.

 

[sdcfia]

It may take a while, but eventually Ditlihi may provide at least preliminary results and conclusions from the field work she and DTTH have been doing in Luna County NM. We need to be patient. So far, we've seen some rock pictures, one of which - the one that resembles a reclining figure holding a head - is pretty cool. I realize she's holding back the good stuff for later - hopefully we'll see it some day. You all know that I am skeptical when observers conflate pareiodolia phenomena with ancient hidden treasures, as the conclusions drawn are totally blue-sky speculation IMO. I'm not nearly as demanding as a guy like Ol' Kentuck, but if there is evidence of ancient activity, nobody has yet provided a reason why "treasure" is the reason.

That said, this is the type of evidence we're always on the lookout for in SW New Mexico and elsewhere in the Southwest - a possible pre Anasazi presence. Not just old, but "ancient."


I really hope D & D have found this sort of evidence - not typical pecked petroglyphs on basalt, but much older deep-cut heavily weathered carvings. These sorts of things do exist in SW New Mexico. Below are a couple I've found.

 

[releventchair]

It may take a while, but eventually Ditlihi may provide at least preliminary results and conclusions from the field work she and DTTH have been doing in Luna County NM. We need to be patient. So far, we've seen some rock pictures, one of which - the one that resembles a reclining figure holding a head - is pretty cool. I realize she's holding back the good stuff for later - hopefully we'll see it some day. You all know that I am skeptical when observers conflate pareiodolia phenomena with ancient hidden treasures, as the conclusions drawn are totally blue-sky speculation IMO. I'm not nearly as demanding as a guy like Ol' Kentuck, but if there is evidence of ancient activity, nobody has yet provided a reason why "treasure" is the reason.

That said, this is the type of evidence we're always on the lookout for in SW New Mexico and elsewhere in the Southwest - a possible pre Anasazi presence. Not just old, but "ancient."


I really hope D & D have found this sort of evidence - not typical pecked petroglyphs on basalt, but much older deep-cut heavily weathered carvings. These sorts of things do exist in SW New Mexico. Below are a couple I've found.

View attachment 1715818
View attachment 1715820

Understanding the complexity of an ancient culture would be treasure enough.

Anthropology tends to study evolution by comparison to "Modern" culture.
And when studying language for example , miss the complexity behind it. As if there exists a rule/tape measure to grasp context with.

Semiotics, linguistics, and sociology can blend of course. But in looking at a "sign" left by a previous culture , knowing which culture and it's complexity is required to attempt to accurately interpret. That never stops me from speculating though. (No , I'm not for hire,as if worth the beans to bankroll or grubstake me..)

I'm only right one out of hundreds of times. Making pareiodolia as easy as mythology to explain mystery. Not in locating gold and silver type treasure though.
Did not take the thread title as such a quest.
Guess I wait and see what "evolves".

locating a shiny treasure there about's would lead to the what to do with/about it , and who is watching from where. And that could be worse than finding some..(!?)

 

[releventchair]

Sigh. That last post did not look to explain what I meant very well...

IF chasing back who made what structure or monument far enough (whatever point that is) and for example find ourselves wandering about the "lithic" stage/era...It would be something to know who created what ,and what it meant if it was made to tell something.

Outside of something considered rare or interesting like a parrot ,or a piece of turquoise , expecting any treasure would be a fools errand.

Going forward into time to where a given metal or other commodity represented or equaled known wealth/great value we still need to know the context.
(Corn cobs are not woth getting busted sneaking away with to us today. But were worth something when holding kernals back when.)

It would need to be a recent period (time wise ,not human lifespan time) to have precious metals worth hoarding. (If precious metals are defined as treasure.)
Ancient does not (to me anyways) fit the time of precious metal in the given region being a goal to accumulate.
That does not dismiss the use, knowledge or desire of accumulation to the South. Different deal there where beans were assured more easily.

Exports/imports are the wildcard. But from and to where?

 

[sdcfia]

Sigh. That last post did not look to explain what I meant very well...

IF chasing back who made what structure or monument far enough (whatever point that is) and for example find ourselves wandering about the "lithic" stage/era...It would be something to know who created what ,and what it meant if it was made to tell something.

Outside of something considered rare or interesting like a parrot ,or a piece of turquoise , expecting any treasure would be a fools errand.

Going forward into time to where a given metal or other commodity represented or equaled known wealth/great value we still need to know the context.
(Corn cobs are not woth getting busted sneaking away with to us today. But were worth something when holding kernals back when.)

It would need to be a recent period (time wise ,not human lifespan time) to have precious metals worth hoarding. (If precious metals are defined as treasure.)
Ancient does not (to me anyways) fit the time of precious metal in the given region being a goal to accumulate.
That does not dismiss the use, knowledge or desire of accumulation to the South. Different deal there where beans were assured more easily.

Exports/imports are the wildcard. But from and to where?

We know that precious metals were coveted as far back as 6,000-7,000 years ago as jewelry. Their importance was widespread throughout Bronze Age cultures as money. That's 4,000 years ago, or more. If you accept Plato (or more importantly, the recent heretical scientific work that redefines human occupations on the globe), then the known importance of the metals may have been inherited by survivors of unknown advanced groups that rebooted human existence after the world-wide cataclysm ~12,000 years ago.

Be that as it may, we're discussing "ancients" in the American Southwest. If the unusual rock shapes are attributable to humans, it seems to me that establishing the timeline is the first and probably the most difficult conclusion to draw. Next, were these folks travelers from elsewhere in the world, or were they regionally indigenous? How one can arrive at such baselines is not yet obvious.

 

[releventchair]

We know that precious metals were coveted as far back as 6,000-7,000 years ago as jewelry. Their importance was widespread throughout Bronze Age cultures as money. That's 4,000 years ago, or more. If you accept Plato (or more importantly, the recent heretical scientific work that redefines human occupations on the globe), then the known importance of the metals may have been inherited by survivors of unknown advanced groups that rebooted human existence after the world-wide cataclysm ~12,000 years ago.

Be that as it may, we're discussing "ancients" in the American Southwest. If the unusual rock shapes are attributable to humans, it seems to me that establishing the timeline is the first and probably the most difficult conclusion to draw. Next, were these folks travelers from elsewhere in the world, or were they regionally indigenous? How one can arrive at such baselines is not yet obvious.

Where luxury afforded , precious metals were recognized.

In a seesaw climate (one of the few correlations between the S.W. and my environs) that luxury was fragile at times.

As long as there have been crossroads (theory on my part) there have been exchanges of things that appeal due to lack of being common. Or simply desired.

In my region copper and less commonly but existent silver. Copper we know having been relayed at great length ,though not knowing quite how far...
Wampum to the East.
Hides. Meat. Pemmican in later history to the North.

At certain living history events we'd hold a round robin trading at night.
One time traders from Florida sought the common here porcupine quills with a fervor.
Had us locals known in advance...

Where cultures overlap by coincidence or design at a crossroads ,what is desired (as far as being obtained) can be dependent on the luxury vs more logical aspects along with rarity.
How far back does Ethiopian tradition go of being able providing gold to a bride as a sign of being worth marrying?
We know the people go far back in time. Those "modern" guys I worked with that were not married did not have enough gold....Though far from their origins here.

First survival. Then luxury.
Despite the drawbacks of large civilizations , there were advantages for some of their members when luxury was theirs to enjoy.