Ancient coin ? (Updated! more pics)

[history hunter]

I found this coin while metal detecting when I was a kid. I thought it was fake until I brought it to a coin show and a dealer said it was not necessarily fake. I was wondering if anyone knew anything about it?

 

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[johnnyi]

Thanks man, that's sounds good. I'll try it !

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

And just push quote (top right next to modify) of the person you want to quote.

 

[testing123]

Not many responses from the forum members at PCGS to my request. But from their responses, they also believe this particular item is not ancient.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=738967

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Not many responses from the forum members at PCGS to my request. But from their responses, they also believe this particular item is not ancient.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=738967

Thanks for the help testing. Post the Gloria Farley link to see if it gets a reaction. http://www.gloriafarley.com/chap11.htm

 

[traderoftreasures]

Not many responses from the forum members at PCGS to my request. But from their responses, they also believe this particular item is not ancient.

http://forums.collectors.com/messageview.cfm?catid=6&threadid=738967

I have poked my eyes at many old coins and this one does not have the irregular, lumpy, lack of modern technology, look to it. If i had to bet my bucks i would call it fake.

 

[history hunter]

"What do you think about the side view johnnyi?"

Cy, I don't know anything about ancient coins so I can only tell you what I see. I don't see a seam, but I see even wear around the visible edge, and it seems to stay at a clean 90% angle. Don't know if that's the way edges of ancient coins appear or not. The most obvious thing I see is the denticals standing up like the Swiss Alps, yet again, the edge shows even uniform wear.

Considering how high the dentical are, it might be fun to flip the coin and compare the image of the corresponding place where they are high. The flip side should be highest there also (unless the manufacturer forgot that pressure from a blow would show on both top and bottom in the same quadrant of both sides)

The edge of the coin has no trace of a seam, it is just smooth, I did look for that before I posted it here.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Maybe the "denticals" arn't "denticals" ? Maybe they're a numerical representation or something else? Just a thought.

I think what BCH see's as a seam is a small scratch.Is how i see it anyhow.

 

[IronSpike]

Found a copy coin on sale on eBay with the palm root (not an exact match).

http://cgi.ebay.com/ANCIENT-GREEK-S...9QQcmdZViewItemQQssPageNameZRSS:B:SRCH:US:102

A known COPY with ROOTS. Great find IronSpike. Its a bit different but getting closer.

IMO this is the closest match we have so far. Is the eBay pendant one that can be purchased today or how old is that copy? Many similarities to HH's coin. Could it be same maker?

 

[IronSpike]

I dont know enough about ancients either so I cant comment too much, but the thing that jumps out at me is the height. This thing has a huge height almost as if cast or added on somehow.. I think we are looking at the face side that also has missing denticals.. I wonder if the other side is flat?

In the side view pic 'the flat' side must be the horse, which is more centered on coin and why it's not showing raised in pic. I had the same thought when I first saw the side view pic. It does look like casted/added to flan/blank. Don't know why or if it means anything as far as minting technique or if just shadows giving that illusion?


Added: See the dolphins and necklace on side view pic.

 

[history hunter]

I dont know enough about ancients either so I cant comment too much, but the thing that jumps out at me is the height. This thing has a huge height almost as if cast or added on somehow.. I think we are looking at the face side that also has missing denticals.. I wonder if the other side is flat?

In the side view pic 'the flat' side must be the horse, which is more centered on coin and why it's not showing raised in pic. I had the same thought when I first saw the side view pic. It does look like casted/added to flan/blank. Don't know why or if it means anything as far as minting technique or if just shadows giving that illusion?


Added: See the dolphins and necklace on side view pic.

The horse also sticks out ,but not as much as the face. It's not flat.

 

[IronSpike]

I'm thinking the piece was an insert for a letter opener design. Possibly same maker as the pendant posted above. Based Arkansas coin the pendant brass rings were added later.

 

[Dano Sverige]

Still no word from any of the "professionals"??

 

[history hunter]

I just received a reply from Professor Mark Mcmenamin!

Dear Dale Brennan (aka History Hunter),

I received your request to comment on your new find of a bronze putative ancient coin with the palm tree showing dangling roots. This coin is an example of one of the mysterious Farley Coins. There has been much discussion of these coins in popular and scholarly publications. Some have considered these coins to be evidence of a Carthaginian presence in America. However, thanks to new discoveries such as yours, it now appears that this coin series in fact represents fantasy copies of ancient coin designs combining Greek and Carthaginian elements. I was able to demonstrate this in the following book:

McMenamin, M. A. 2000. Phoenicians, Fakes and Barry Fell: Solving the Mystery of Carthaginian Coins Found in America. Meanma Press, South Hadley, Massachusetts. ISBN 1893882012.

The late Gloria Farley, who had read of my Carthaginian map coin research, first brought these fantasy replicas to my attention. Her specimen was very worn and corroded. I was able, in 2000, to locate a Farley Coin in Northampton, MA, from the same or very similar dies that still retained mint luster under a lacquer coating. Thus no way can this be an ancient bronze coin. Nevertheless, your coin remains an important piece of American history and will henceforth be referred to as the ?Wisconsin Farley Coin.? Who minted these fantasy coins, and why, remains a mystery. Also mysterious is why these coins are scattered all over Eastern and Midwestern North America. Somebody went to a lot of trouble to mint these coins, probably well over one hundred years ago. I would very much like to learn the answers to these questions. Farley coins such as yours sell on the open market in the 50-100 dollar range. Eleven specimens are known, from five different die varieties. Your coin is of the Alabama-type die variety. These coins will likely become more valuable as we learn more about them. For example, how deeply was your coin buried?

At present, no authentic Carthaginian coins have been found in North America. Jeremiah Epstein in his 1980 article in Current Anthropology actually mentions one of the "Farley coins" in his paper. He accepted it as a genuine ancient coin and did not identify it as a copy or fantasy piece.

Carthaginian map coin theory, on the other hand, is still going strong and has gained additional supporters. The most recent paper on this subject is the following:

McMenamin, M. 2009. The mystery of the Carthaginian map coins. NI (Numismatics International) Bulletin, v. 44, nos. 7/8, p. 125-126.

You have made an excellent and important find. If you wish to post my reply to TreasureNet, please feel free to do so, but please let me know when you post it, many thanks.

Happy hunting,

Mark McMenamin

-----------------------------------------

 

[72cheyenne]

Well folks, there you have it. What a great read this thread has turned out to be, heated at times, but a great thread with a conclusion. Kudos to all that posted and especially to you history hunter for sticking with it. Maybe this should go over in Best of Tnet. 8)

 

[IronSpike]

Thanks for posting this historical coin history hunter. Now you get to name a coin, how cool is that. BANNER all the way

Well folks, there you have it. What a great read this thread has turned out to be, heated at times, but a great thread with a conclusion. Kudos to all that posted and especially to you history hunter for sticking with it. Maybe this should go over in Best of Tnet. 8)

Well said 72cheyenne and the reply from Mark McMenamin very much appreciated Can only imagine how research was done on a coin like this before time of internet and without a great forum like 'What Is It?' here on TreasureNet

 

[Dano Sverige]

Interesting conclusion,but i still think there's a large mystery there with these coins.As the professor say's..who minted these coins and for what purpose,and why are they buried/ found in 11 different states? (upto now). All very odd and interesting.
Also,i wonder why nobody turns up stating "oh my grandmother has one of these" etc etc? If they were made as a necklace for ornamentation,or other purpose,then you'd suppose they were made to be sold? and if so then many more should have been found by now?
No matter,as stated,this has been a great thread and subject,and also puts you in an elite and small group of people who have discovered one of these coins.You have something now that few others will ever have..an object named after your home state because of YOU!
I also say "banner".

Thanks to all for their hard work,and apologies to those i may have upset lol.

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Another very interesting "opinion". It is great that you got an answer.

Forgive me, though - that in this case, "opinion" is still what it is. (you didn't send it in and have him look at it, weigh it, touch it or anything, correct?)

Also, regardless of opinion (including mine), we do not know for sure - people are only going on what other people have deduced, and have not contacted anyone who has come to other conclusions on anything different. So, if you ask a person who has already made a deduction on a coin (or anything else), they will come to the conclusion that it matches their beliefs, especially when it hasn't been personally seen or tested.


His "opinion" (not on this coin in particular) merely mirrors a belief already held by the writer, which does not even take into account other things, besides "Farley coins" that have been found in the United States, like stone inscriptions and old maps.

One thing we should always keep in mind - there is much NEW history we have learned, just in the few years since we have been in school. In the last 40+ years, much of what was held as "absolute" has been found to be, indeed - NOT THE WAY IT WAS. Not to mention the fact that, if I was the author of, or a proponent of, the "Farley coin theory", I would certainly be looking for more evidence of my own opinion.

Of course, it it still a cool find.


B

 

[Merlyn555]

In defense of Gloria Farley (sort of)

I am glad to see the letter by Mark McMenamin clearing up the question of the authenticity of the coin, these coins offer by Ms Farley as evidence has always bothered me.

Glory Farley was a self taught woman who upon finding the Heavener Rune stone made it a point to educate herself on the subject of rock carvings and find more examples of them in her home state of Oklahoma and eventually the entire United States.

In an effort to decipher the Ogham and Runic carvings she found she met Dr. Barry Fell who tutored her in the subject and took a keen interest himself. Unfortunately Dr. Fell was basically a novice in the area as well and once locked into the idea that the originators of the carvings were of Basque origin he went into a series of fanciful deductions that have since proved false.

Having been interested in the subject of ancient visitation to North America for many years I met with Ms Farley in 2002 and spend several hours’ discussion her theories. I do not agree with her decipherment of the Heavener Rune stone or several others that were proposed by Dr. Fell which led to a very lively and interesting argument.

On the subject of the coins we agreed on one thing only and that was the evidence shows that it was possible for the coins to have been minted in North America.

Copper has been mined in the Lake Superior area since around 5000 BC and it was mined in very large quantities! The amounts we are talking about are way beyond what the Native Americans could produce or use. Examples of Copper Culture are evident all over the continent but with the amount of Copper that was mined there should be many more examples found.

Native Americans did have the knowledge and ability to smelt and forge the Copper as examples of small furnaces can be found in many places but nowhere has there been found a furnace that could handle the amount mined.

Someone was mining and removing the Copper from the Lake Superior sites and if not the Native Americans then who was it?

Ms Farley believed with all her heart that the coins were genuine and I am sure we can forgive her for this considering the wealth of other work she has done in the area, no one can be right all the time. I am also sure that she would still argue their authenticity if she were still around.

Merlyn

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Merlyn555,

I can certainly see your point - especially if 95% of what is presented is, indeed, copies or whatever, and being "self-taught" may actually be a positive, rather than a negative, simply because a self-taught person quite often does not get the "status quo" grilled into them - we, when we were students were told, in no uncertain terms, that it was this way, and no other way - while a self-taught person is more likely to look at all aspects of a situation. Frankly, at least half, if not more, of the history I learned in school is either incorrect or incomplete, and all taught out of books that were published and distributed to most all the students in that grade.

However, I was not referring specifically to just Gloria Farley (and frankly, I have a lower opinion of Barry Fell on the subject), but referring to all the "expert" folks who have a different opinion whose reasoning has not been acknowledged.

B

 

[CRUSADER]

phew, I can stop saving up the $1000 now