Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[Somero]

Well now there is proof that the Starrar brothers were mining in AZ in 1873, five years before the Waltz agreement. I guess Dr. Glovers "theory" is yet again proven wrong.


Another tidbit to look up: Starrar Jacob A Little War of Our Own AZ 979.16 P72d 209-210 Bio

Another bit of info: Am looking for an obit, death notice or any other evidence of either Jacob Starar or Andrew Starar in Tulare CO. The are often refered to as the Starar brothers though by this time Jacob may no longer be living. Jacob bn abt 1821 and Andrew about 1822 both born in Würtenburg. Name is sometimes spelled, Star, Starr, Starrar, Starer, etc... Any help would be appreciated. They were in Humboldt Co for about a decade in 1850/60's, trinty county before that; Idaho in 1860's, AZ by late 1860's. Appreciate the help. Blessings!

How does this prove Dr. Glover wrong?

Do you even know or understand Dr. Glover's theory?

I put more faith in Dr. Glovers years of research than your random cut and paste internet random spur of the moment to disprove thought search ideas. Just saying do real research and research the sources of the information you are getting. Then perhaps you might have a better understanding of what you are reading and come to some sort of "stableish" conclusion, instead of trying to throw everybody else out the window for not taking your word for what you post as gospel truth.

 

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[Hal Croves]

Hal - we've done a little work together on researching some things and I respect your ability to find obscure documents and evidence. That said, the statements you made in red above sound like statements of fact and not your opinions or theory. Can you provide anything other than deductive reasoning to back those statements up?

Especially in regards to "who was there and who was not" when Waltz was on his death bed, that question has been around since very early on and I've never seen anything "clear" about it.

I'm glad there's an interest in this topic as well - the big problem with a subject like this is it's so easy to go off in multiple directions that really don't have much to do with the original subject. It's really hard to "herd cats" so to speak - in fact, I'm as much at fault as anyone else in moving the thread to different directions .

Cubfan64,
I went back and re-read that post and you are correct that it reads as if it is fact. That, as everyone must know, can never be as all we have is recorded testimonials and second hand information. But at some point one needs to squat in one of the many camps. I guess that I have.

I will tell you this. I met Jim H once briefly and it was so noisy that I could not understand anyone at the table much less Jim who was obviously in discomfort. We had exchanged emails so I had some idea about him when we met. After the meal we walked outside and Jim handed me a disk, a cd. He said "this should help" among other personal things. I tried to open the files back at my hotel but as I am a Mac person, the disk would not read. I never talked to Jim again after that night.

Only recently did I find that disk again and I decided to give it a go with a new Mac. Well it opened and what is on it is Jim's and others research.

One of the items on the cd is a work that I have not read about before much less known of its existence. I think that it is the closest thing that we have to the truth and I am convinced that it is the key to understanding the events surrounding the DM's death,

Once you read it it will become obvious to you who is f&@:ing around with whom. That is if you accept it as truth. I happen to believe most of it. The seasoned believers on this site know the work I am referencing and the people I am describing and what they have done.

The work is not mine to post or to share but I do own a copy.

Sorry for going off topic.

 

[UncleMatt]

I am on ancestry.com, so tell me the exact full names of the people you want census data on and I will do some searching. If you have date of birth or any additional info, that would help. Names of relatives, etc.

 

[Cubfan64]

Cubfan64,
I went back and re-read that post and you are correct that it reads as if it is fact. That, as everyone must know, can never be as all we have is recorded testimonials and second hand information. But at some point one needs to squat in one of the many camps. I guess that I have.

I will tell you this. I met Jim H once briefly and it was so noisy that I could not understand anyone at the table much less Jim who was obviously in discomfort. We had exchanged emails so I had some idea about him when we met. After the meal we walked outside and Jim handed me a disk, a cd. He said "this should help" among other personal things. I tried to open the files back at my hotel but as I am a Mac person, the disk would not read. I never talked to Jim again after that night.

Only recently did I find that disk again and I decided to give it a go with a new Mac. Well it opened and what is on it is Jim's and others research.

One of the items on the cd is a work that I have not read about before much less known of its existence. I think that it is the closest thing that we have to the truth and I am convinced that it is the key to understanding the events surrounding the DM's death,

Once you read it it will become obvious to you who is f&@:ing around with whom. That is if you accept it as truth. I happen to believe most of it. The seasoned believers on this site know the work I am referencing and the people I am describing and what they have done.

The work is not mine to post or to share but I do own a copy.

Sorry for going off topic.

Hal - thanks for the clarification. I sorta figured I was a "seasoned believer," but I guess I'm more out of the loop than I thought as I don't know what work or people you are referring to, or what they may have done, although there are so many stories out there, it's possible I've come across it at one time or another.

I'll make a pitch for the fact that since Jim H. has now passed on, perhaps what he shared with you is now free to share with others, especially in light of the fact that it may open doors to the truth of Waltz's death? If you choose not to share that information, that's understandable, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask as uncovering the truth is really what most of us are all about.

 

[Cubfan64]

One quick correction for chlsbrns sake...

When I mentioned Dr. Glover's theory as to why the Starar brother's fortunes went from high to low during their time in Phoenix, I wanted to quote directly from his book, however I'm uncomfortable doing that as there are copyright issues there - especially as it was a fairly large portion of text.

I made the statement...

He surmises that at some point they decided to try their hand at mining

which was my own wording and not his. It was a poor choice of words and I apologize for that. Glover actually mentions the Sacaton mine in his theory as to the Starar brother's financial "fall." If I implied that they were new to mining, that wasn't my intent.

I would ask that chlsbrns stop attacking "Dr. Glover's theory" as the way I worded it was incorrect - thank you.

 

[chlsbrns]

How does this prove Dr. Glover wrong?

Do you even know or understand Dr. Glover's theory?

I put more faith in Dr. Glovers years of research than your random cut and paste internet random spur of the moment to disprove thought search ideas. Just saying do real research and research the sources of the information you are getting. Then perhaps you might have a better understanding of what you are reading and come to some sort of "stableish" conclusion, instead of trying to throw everybody else out the window for not taking your word for what you post as gospel truth.

I put more faith in the dept of treasury. I'm going by cubfans post. He surely can back up anything that he says can't he?

Wayne, don't know if you've read it or not, but Dr. Glover's theory as to how the Starar brothers went from "well to do" to in pretty rough shape financially was due ironically enough to mining. He surmises that at some point they decided to try their hand at mining. They had at least one mine (possibly more as I haven't looked that closely), and they may have chased their dream of becoming even more wealthy right into the poorhouse by tossing good money after bad trying to strike it rich. As you said, they may have purchased land and real estate at below market value prices, then sold it off a little at a time sinking their money quite literally into the ground, and eventually ended up without a rich strike and now without any real estate. I haven't looked into it closely enough, but I trust that Dr. Glover has and that was his feeling.

I didn't mention anything whatsoever about what the Starar brothers did or did not do before they came to Phoenix. I'm well aware (as is Dr. Glover) that they were involved in at least some mining prior to their arrival in Phoenix. I know about their time in the Eel River area of CA as well as some of their other movements, but didn't bring any of that up because it has no bearing on Dr. Glover's theory.

Perhaps I wasn't clear in my comment above, so let me be clear now. I was referring to their time in Phoenix and how they went from being "well to do" to fairly poor. They were clearly involved in farming, purchasing real estate and business in their early years in Phoenix - it wasn't until later that they began selling property off at a pretty good rate.
Where did all their money go? Dr. Glover's theory is just that - a theory. Maybe it's right and maybe it's wrong, but it has absolutely nothing to do with anything they did before they got to Phoenix.

I don't understand why you seem to be looking for a fight with every one of your posts here, but it's getting very tiresome.

cubfan/Dr. claimed that the Starar brothers went broke when they tried their hand at mining in their later years.

I showed via a US Treasury document that they mined in AZ in their early years.


Statistics of Mines and Mining in the States and Territories West of the ... - United States. Dept. of the Treasury, Rossiter Worthington Raymond - Google Books

 

[chlsbrns]

One quick correction for chlsbrns sake...

When I mentioned Dr. Glover's theory as to why the Starar brother's fortunes went from high to low during their time in Phoenix, I wanted to quote directly from his book, however I'm uncomfortable doing that as there are copyright issues there - especially as it was a fairly large portion of text.

I made the statement... which was my own wording and not his. It was a poor choice of words and I apologize for that. Glover actually mentions the Sacaton mine in his theory as to the Starar brother's financial "fall." If I implied that they were new to mining, that wasn't my intent.

I would ask that chlsbrns stop attacking "Dr. Glover's theory" as the way I worded it was incorrect - thank you.

It was years after the sacaton mine that the Starar brothers bought and sold land and mining claims and owned the largest livery/horse stable known to mankind (well to do) so the sacaton mine could not have been their demise if they even had a demise.

 

[Cubfan64]

It was years after the sacaton mine that the Starar brothers bought and sold land and mining claims and owned the largest livery/horse stable known to mankind (well to do) so the sacaton mine could not have been their demise if they even had a demise.

You're correct - great work. Looking forward to what you find out from the Fortuna Historian this weekend about Andrew's return to the area after he left Phoenix.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal - thanks for the clarification. I sorta figured I was a "seasoned believer," but I guess I'm more out of the loop than I thought as I don't know what work or people you are referring to, or what they may have done, although there are so many stories out there, it's possible I've come across it at one time or another.

I'll make a pitch for the fact that since Jim H. has now passed on, perhaps what he shared with you is now free to share with others, especially in light of the fact that it may open doors to the truth of Waltz's death? If you choose not to share that information, that's understandable, but I would be remiss if I didn't ask as uncovering the truth is really what most of us are all about.

Sorry, I can not share that work. Perhaps someone else here has permission to post it. However, I doubt that anyone who has it wants to be the one to post it. Lots of finger pointing.


cactusjumper... you are noticably silent?

 

[roadrunner]

Hal, what is this document, article, or piece called?
Can you at least name it?
So we can look for it.

 

[somehiker]

More info for the database:



Hours of education for your entertainment in the entire series of videos.

Regards:SH.

 

[Somero]

Hal, what is this document, article, or piece called?
Can you at least name it?
So we can look for it.

I think Hal is referring to those "Deep Dark Waters Where There Be Dragons" not sure if I want to wade in cause I can see something moving under the surface. Not sure if it is good or bad, but it is disturbing to speculate about the implications.

Looking forward to more info on the Starar's, especially census documents.

 

[Hal Croves]

I just want to say that I really enjoy TN and the people who participate I find fascinating. I also think that I have given it an honest effort to share whatever insignificant bits of info I find without conditions. But I can not post that info without permission.

There are those that read this thread that have the ability to share the work in question but choose not to do so.

Obviously, that is their choice but when this conversation progresses, in another thread hopefully, readers should ask those in the know if they were aware of the work and why they never referenced or pointed the work out.

Bravo to those who have.

This is the last that I will write about this work on this thread. It is off topic.

 

[Springfield]

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

HI Sprimgfield, what about the Dean device??

Don Jose d e La Mancha

 

[Springfield]

'Dean device'? No idea what you mean.

 

[chlsbrns]

This thread dies without me. You boys must miss me. Didnt waltz publish a book about the dean device?

 

[somehiker]

View attachment Prospecting for Dummies.bmp

 

[Cubfan64]

Here is the census data found to date regarding the Starar brothers. The 1850 census page may not be correct as it's very hard to read.

1850


1860


1870


1880

 

[chlsbrns]

I'm being told that Andrew returned to California in 1883 and Jacob returned in 1892.