Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen: Coffee this cold morning ? We have relative proof - an unfortunate statement of a basic premise - of A Walz having lived near the Supers, had a box of extremely rich ore, which has been stated as not belonging to any other mine in the area, on his dying bed told of his hidden Gold mine in the nearby Superstitions, even drew a map ??

What I am curious about is why the dedication on small details on whether he existed or not?? It has 'fairly' well been established that he did, so why not more concentration on the actual location ??

How would establishing that he had a fulfillled contract with Andrew, help, other than it is a fun project? And it certainly is.

Don Jose de La Mancha







,

 

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[Goldmine]

If Greg E. Davis is looking in I have a few questions you might be able to answer for me or point me in the right direction.

There is good reason to believe that Jacob Waltz, Jacob and Andrew Starar, David Schultes, Ferdinand Magdeberg and the Slosser-Tewksbury family formed an alliance to gain control of a tier of quarter sections which at one time they had hoped would become the city of Phoenix. In 1871 the quarter section Jacob Waltz was living on was actually under David Schultes name. I don't believe tat ever changed. Also there was good reason to believe that Andrew Starar was poisoned, probably by his brother Jacob. Jacob Starar later died of poisoning and both he and Andrew were buried on their ranch.

Do you understand the relationship of these people and what was goin on ? I do not fully understand it myself. David Schultes was living with the Starar's in Humboldt Co. California in 1860. Magdeberg was Andrew Starar's brother in law or father in law as I understand it. Henry Slosser became executor of the Starar's estates. Elvira Tewksbury married Henry Slosser. James Tewksbury died at Jake Starar's ranch immediately after trying to kill a man in Phoenix. David Schultes also died of poisoning. The agreement between Andrew Starar and Jacob Waltz had more to do with Starar than it did with Waltz. Since the Sheriff sold Waltz's personal property after the agreement with Andrew Starar, obviously Waltz had never given Starar his property and the agreement meant nothing. The whole school land issue is confusing because Section 16 was open for homesteading at the land office in April 1868 when Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar filed.

If you can shed any light on these issues and questions I would appreciate it, or if you could point me to someone who might be able to explain things a little better. You can PM me if you would rather.

Goldmine

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

i believe you may be mixing your sources and information

tewksbury did not ATTEMPT to kill a man in phoenix. he did kill the last surviving male member of the Graham family. the end(officially) of the pleasant valley war.

at the time, he was on the census in calif..but the tewksbury family was in pleasant valley, arizona...(young)
Arizona's Graham-Tewksbury Feud - Leland J. Hanchett - Google Books

 

[Goldmine]

i believe you may be mixing your sources and information

tewksbury did not ATTEMPT to kill a man in phoenix. he did kill the last surviving male member of the Graham family. the end(officially) of the pleasant valley war.

at the time, he was on the census in calif..but the tewksbury family was in pleasant valley, arizona...(young)
[url=http://books.google.com/books

No, I respectfully must point out you are mixing your sources and information.
I don't want to sidetrack this into a debate about the Pleasant Valley war but James D. Tewksbury Jr. came to Phoenix on November 28, 1888 for the express purpose of killing a man in Phoenix. He went to the man's house and the man's wife answered the door and told Tewksbury her husband was out and she didn't expect him back anytime soon. James Tewksbury Jr. went immediately to the home of Jacob Starar to wait for the man to return. There he took sick and died on December 2, 1888. Elvira Tewksbury was James Tewksbury Jr's sister and married to Henry Slosser and were next door neighbors of Jacob Starrar. Elvira Slosser and Jacob Starar tried to nurse Tewksbury back to health but he died there at Starar's home.

Tom Graham was killed in Tempe in 1892, 4 years after James Tewksbury Jr. died at Starar's ranch. It was James Tewksbury's brother Edwin who was alleged to have killed Tom Graham. Edwin Tewksbury was aquited of that murder.

Hopefully Greg might answer here and shed some light on these people's relationships and questions.

Goldmine

 

[chlsbrns]

If Greg E. Davis is looking in I have a few questions you might be able to answer for me or point me in the right direction.

There is good reason to believe that Jacob Waltz, Jacob and Andrew Starar, David Schultes, Ferdinand Magdeberg and the Slosser-Tewksbury family formed an alliance to gain control of a tier of quarter sections which at one time they had hoped would become the city of Phoenix. In 1871 the quarter section Jacob Waltz was living on was actually under David Schultes name. I don't believe tat ever changed. Also there was good reason to believe that Andrew Starar was poisoned, probably by his brother Jacob. Jacob Starar later died of poisoning and both he and Andrew were buried on their ranch.

Do you understand the relationship of these people and what was goin on ? I do not fully understand it myself. David Schultes was living with the Starar's in Humboldt Co. California in 1860. Magdeberg was Andrew Starar's brother in law or father in law as I understand it. Henry Slosser became executor of the Starar's estates. Elvira Tewksbury married Henry Slosser. James Tewksbury died at Jake Starar's ranch immediately after trying to kill a man in Phoenix. David Schultes also died of poisoning. The agreement between Andrew Starar and Jacob Waltz had more to do with Starar than it did with Waltz. Since the Sheriff sold Waltz's personal property after the agreement with Andrew Starar, obviously Waltz had never given Starar his property and the agreement meant nothing. The whole school land issue is confusing because Section 16 was open for homesteading at the land office in April 1868 when Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar filed.

If you can shed any light on these issues and questions I would appreciate it, or if you could point me to someone who might be able to explain things a little better. You can PM me if you would rather.

Goldmine

Your statements are all over the place and confusing. I’m not sure if this is any help?

Henry Slosser married Elvira Tewksbury in 1880. They remained married until Elvira died in 1899. Henry died in 1904.

As far as the property owned by Waltz in 1878 Jacob Starar sold horses, chickens and other stuff that was on the property in 1892. It was never under David Schultes name.

 

[Goldmine]

chlsbrns,

Yes I know Elvira Tewksbury married Henry Slosser. Slosser was the executor to the estates of both the Starars and Ferdinand Magdeberg who was Andrew Starar's father or brother in law and living on the south half of Andrew's property.

yes , in 1871 the property Jacob Waltz was living on was in the name of David Schultes. by 1878-79 David Schultes was dead from poisoning. His widow , Lydia Ann Schultes then married James Tewksbury Sr. I never said Waltz's property was in Schultes name in 1878. I don't know where you read that into what I said. When I said I don't believe that ever changed, I meant Waltz's name never again appeared on the property after that. I was talking about Schultes in 1871 and only the year 1871.

Yes there are a lot of questions here and it is confusing, that is why I think either Greg Davis or one other person here who seems to not be posting any more can be of any help with the answers to these questions.

Goldmine

 

[chlsbrns]

If Greg E. Davis is looking in I have a few questions you might be able to answer for me or point me in the right direction.

There is good reason to believe that Jacob Waltz, Jacob and Andrew Starar, David Schultes, Ferdinand Magdeberg and the Slosser-Tewksbury family formed an alliance to gain control of a tier of quarter sections which at one time they had hoped would become the city of Phoenix. In 1871 the quarter section Jacob Waltz was living on was actually under David Schultes name. I don't believe tat ever changed. Also there was good reason to believe that Andrew Starar was poisoned, probably by his brother Jacob. Jacob Starar later died of poisoning and both he and Andrew were buried on their ranch.

Do you understand the relationship of these people and what was goin on ? I do not fully understand it myself. David Schultes was living with the Starar's in Humboldt Co. California in 1860. Magdeberg was Andrew Starar's brother in law or father in law as I understand it. Henry Slosser became executor of the Starar's estates. Elvira Tewksbury married Henry Slosser. James Tewksbury died at Jake Starar's ranch immediately after trying to kill a man in Phoenix. David Schultes also died of poisoning. The agreement between Andrew Starar and Jacob Waltz had more to do with Starar than it did with Waltz. Since the Sheriff sold Waltz's personal property after the agreement with Andrew Starar, obviously Waltz had never given Starar his property and the agreement meant nothing. The whole school land issue is confusing because Section 16 was open for homesteading at the land office in April 1868 when Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar filed.

If you can shed any light on these issues and questions I would appreciate it, or if you could point me to someone who might be able to explain things a little better. You can PM me if you would rather.

Goldmine

You write like cubsfan.

You stated: "Section 16 was open for homesteading at the land office in April 1868 when Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar filed"

So you are saying that Waltz filed a homestead claim in 1868 but lived on property owned by Schultes in 1871?

You seem to know an awful lot that I can't find. Can you provide anything to back up the statements that you are making?

 

[Goldmine]

My original post was to Greg Davis hoping he would see it and be able to shine some light on my questions and explain some of the relationships of the people.
I didn't mean to sidetrack the Andrew Starar Waltz agreement thread but this fits and that agreement is part of the puzzle I'm working on.
I was told I had my sources and information mixed and merely posted back that my information was correct.
Now I'm being told you can't find things. Yes I have things to back up statements but did not come here for anything but to try and get Mr. Davis or possibly Matt Roberts input on these relationships. Specifically how were Tewksbury and Starar's related ? It had to be by marriage back in Eel River California. Who has the Tewksbury-Starar photograph ?
Thanks for the concern but respectfully I'm not looking for what you have.
If Greg or Matt are looking in, PM me if you will and I can explain more.

Thanks,
Goldmine

 

[Cubfan64]

Ladies & Gentlemen: Coffee this cold morning ? We have relative proof - an unfortunate statement of a basic premise - of A Walz having lived near the Supers, had a box of extremely rich ore, which has been stated as not belonging to any other mine in the area, on his dying bed told of his hidden Gold mine in the nearby Superstitions, even drew a map ??

What I am curious about is why the dedication on small details on whether he existed or not?? It has 'fairly' well been established that he did, so why not more concentration on the actual location ??

How would establishing that he had a fulfillled contract with Andrew, help, other than it is a fun project? And it certainly is.

Don Jose de La Mancha,

I understand what you're saying and asking RDT. I can't speak for others, but I can tell you that my interest in the topic is threefold:

1) The agreement itself, once fleshed out as well as documented evidence can clarify, clearly (to me) poses a question as to why a man who supposedly has access to a very rich gold source would a) sign over everything he owns to someone to take care of him for the rest of his life "in sickness and in health" and b) NOT sign over the gold source in the process?

2) Perhaps in digging into the agreement as well as various side tracks around it, some small piece of documented evidence unknown to date may come to light that could be the "missing key" to finding the gold source - unlikely, but possible

3) Being that I live so far from the AZ and am only able to visit for a few short days every year, I have to fill my "dutchman research" time with SOMETHING - this is something I've always been interested in and curious about

Those are my reasons at least

 

[Cubfan64]

My original post was to Greg Davis hoping he would see it and be able to shine some light on my questions and explain some of the relationships of the people.
I didn't mean to sidetrack the Andrew Starar Waltz agreement thread but this fits and that agreement is part of the puzzle I'm working on.
I was told I had my sources and information mixed and merely posted back that my information was correct.
Now I'm being told you can't find things. Yes I have things to back up statements but did not come here for anything but to try and get Mr. Davis or possibly Matt Roberts input on these relationships. Specifically how were Tewksbury and Starar's related ? It had to be by marriage back in Eel River California. Who has the Tewksbury-Starar photograph ?
Thanks for the concern but respectfully I'm not looking for what you have.
If Greg or Matt are looking in, PM me if you will and I can explain more.

Thanks,
Goldmine

Goldmine,

While you are correct that your questions and comments aren't "directly related" to the agreement itself, as the person who started this thread, I think your comments are an interesting sidetrack that clearly ties in to the thread and is worth pursuing

You're certainly welcome to get PM's from Mr. Davis and Mr. Roberts, however I hope you would consider both providing some evidence to support some of the "new" information (at least to me), and also sharing whatever information you get. Again, if you would rather keep things as PM's or e-mails, that's your choice, but I think the main reason most of us are here (I hope) are to share information to further each other's understanding of the lore, legends and history surrounding the Dutchman Mine.

 

[Cubfan64]

I'm being told that Andrew returned to California in 1883 and Jacob returned in 1892./QUOTE]

Did the historian you spoke with over the weekend provide you with any evidence? If someone knows they returned, there must be a newspaper report, tax record, diary entry or other source that causes them to believe it - did you find out what basis they have for what they told you?

If Jacob did return to CA in 1892, he must have returned back to AZ in 1893 where he died.

 

[markmar]

Paul

I believe Waltz gave the land to Andrew Starar with two conditions :

1) To take care of him
2) To keep the usufruct of the property

For this , doesn't matter who owned his property , he keep the usufruct and could remain in his house until he die .

 

[chlsbrns]

I'm being told that Andrew returned to California in 1883 and Jacob returned in 1892./QUOTE]

Did the historian you spoke with over the weekend provide you with any evidence? If someone knows they returned, there must be a newspaper report, tax record, diary entry or other source that causes them to believe it - did you find out what basis they have for what they told you?

If Jacob did return to CA in 1892, he must have returned back to AZ in 1893 where he died.

Yes a lot of info! A 1892 Phoenix directory that does not contain Waltz or the Starar Brothers. Surely someone as influential as Starar would be in the directory if he was in the Phoenix area. Court records from California. A Biography, California land & claim transfers and a few other bits of info. Nothing that you can look up for yourself.

What do you have to back up your statement:

"If Jacob did return to CA in 1892, he must have returned back to AZ in 1893 where he died"

What is the basis for your statement? Surely there must be a newspaper report, tax report, tax record, diary entry or other source that causes you to believe it's a fact and not just your belief.

Busy day today!

Merry Christmas All!

 

[Cubfan64]

Yes a lot of info! A 1892 Phoenix directory that does not contain Waltz or the Starar Brothers. Surely someone as influential as Starar would be in the directory if he was in the Phoenix area. Court records from California. A Biography, California land & claim transfers and a few other bits of info. Nothing that you can look up for yourself.

What do you have to back up your statement:

"If Jacob did return to CA in 1892, he must have returned back to AZ in 1893 where he died"

What is the basis for your statement? Surely there must be a newspaper report, tax report, tax record, diary entry or other source that causes you to believe it's a fact and not just your belief.

Busy day today!

Merry Christmas All!

Why would I not be able to look up or obtain copies of CA court records, land and claim records? Those are all public documents and primary source material so of course if someone were to provide dates and locations, they would be simple records to obtain. If you're ever able to provide some of those records, that would be great additional information to share.

I'm travelling at the moment for the holidays, but I have someone sending me copies of two newspaper obituaries from the Phoenix area for Jacob Starar from 1893. I have not read them yet, so it's possible the obituaries came out in the AZ newspapers but were referring to Starar passing away in CA - if that's the case I spoke too soon. When I return from the holidays I should have copies of the obituaries and be able to post them.

 

[Hal Croves]

File names are the articles source w/date. Just futter but interesting.
View attachment 918134

View attachment 918135

 

[Cubfan64]

File names are the articles source w/date. Just futter but interesting.
View attachment 918134

View attachment 918135

Thanks Hal - I'm up to around 45 newspaper articles mentioning one or both of the Starar brothers (mostly in AZ, but a few in CA). As you said, they don't really amount to much, but from a historical/geneology standpoint they all slowly fill in bits and pieces of their lives which I find interesting.

 

[chlsbrns]

Tnet pic upload must not be working. I can't upload pics of the news articles.

Search Results « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

Search Results « Chronicling America « Library of Congress

 

[Hal Croves]

I am still looking for the Starar "Outlaw" connection that I wrote about. I moved recently and most of my things are in boxes so its a task. The Starar topic is a great one. Did you know that Duppa and the Starars saved the Starar residence during the flood by building a impromptu wall around the entire structure? Duppa and the others were all presumed drowned until found on Starar's roof and rescued with boats. This may explain why Waltz Walzer became trapped alone in his orchard ... his few friends were themselves caught. What was Waltz Walzer doing in the orchard at that time? Escaping through it? Checking on something in it? or, perhaps he was simply harvesting cherries when the flood hit? When is harvest time for cherries in AZ? Anyone?

So, I am thinking about when the agreement was signed and what the reason was for Julia's long and protracted care for the Dutchman. Wasn't that the Starar's responsiblity? Contractually he should have been moved and cared for by the Starars. Is this assumption correct? What really happened in the end? Did his property go to Julia or to the Starars? It is convoluted.

 

[cactusjumper]

My original post was to Greg Davis hoping he would see it and be able to shine some light on my questions and explain some of the relationships of the people.
I didn't mean to sidetrack the Andrew Starar Waltz agreement thread but this fits and that agreement is part of the puzzle I'm working on.
I was told I had my sources and information mixed and merely posted back that my information was correct.
Now I'm being told you can't find things. Yes I have things to back up statements but did not come here for anything but to try and get Mr. Davis or possibly Matt Roberts input on these relationships. Specifically how were Tewksbury and Starar's related ? It had to be by marriage back in Eel River California. Who has the Tewksbury-Starar photograph ?
Thanks for the concern but respectfully I'm not looking for what you have.
If Greg or Matt are looking in, PM me if you will and I can explain more.

Thanks,
Goldmine

Goldmine,

"Specifically how were Tewksbury and Starar's related ? It had to be by marriage back in Eel River California."

Why did it have "to be by marriage back in Eel River California"? Both also lived in Arizona at the same time. Do you already know the answer to your question? Have some kind of documentation?

Thanks,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

I am dizzy from trying to keep up with this thread.

waltz, was an antique at the time of this agreement...since there was no social security, an old man traded off his property for physical accommodation at the end of his life.
to be comfortable at the end of his life.