Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[Old Bookaroo]

Cubfan64:

Nicely done! I am a big fan of original documentation (when available) and of the early versions of stories when that is the best we can do.

Robert Blair covered this (Tales of the Superstitions; The Origins of the Lost Dutchman Legend (Tempe, 1975)), as well. I know different folks here have different views of his work (I have a couple myself) but, all in all, he didn't miss much. To be fair to the author I don't want to quote his research - it's there (pgs. 61-62 - I believe the pagination is the same in the hardcover and trade paper editions).

For the record - his conclusion was pretty much the same as yours. This doesn't appear to have been an action taken by a wealthy individual.

Good luck to all,

~ The Old Bookaroo

 

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[Springfield]

Indeed Oro - it IS minuteia, but I agree that it's interesting and in my mind at least it has at least a little bearing on whether Waltz could have had a rich source of gold ore or not. It won't prove anything one way or another, but it's just another piece of a much larger puzzle that's fun to try to put together.

Despite the fact that I disagree with chlsbrns on most everything, this agreement with Starar is a "bugaboo" to me too in that it just doesn't jive with the actions of a man who had a rich source of gold.

I don't have time today to delve into things, so perhaps someone else who has read the pages in Thomas Glover's book that I pointed out above can generate a synopsis of what his theory is as to why Waltz would have entered into this agreement. It's an interesting theory, and it has many side tracks and angles, but I'm not sure I'm a "buyer" of it.

The only real theories I can come up with revolve around the idea that Waltz was a true miser and/or perhaps was a lonely man who realized at this point of his life that $$ can't buy happiness or health. The stickler in my mind to all of this is why not give Andrew Starar the gold (or at least a portion of it) so that he could more easily and better take care of Waltz?

I'm glad some folks are interested in the story - I do think it's an interesting one and while it provides no information whatsoever to help locate Waltz's gold source, it helps paint a picture of the man, and for those of us who enjoy the historical aspect of the legend it keeps us occupied .

We have a rather mundane hopscotch paper trail describing certain touchpoints from this man Waltz's life, but there are enormous blank periods in it. When it all boils down, we really don't know much about this man. The same could be said for nearly all people a hundred years after their death - it'll be the same for us.

With Waltz, we wouldn't care except for the allegations about him possessing gold ore. I'll re-ask a question re Waltz: are there any credible witnesses who saw and commented on his gold before the time of his death? Who saw it, and when? What was its description? Was it common knowledge in Phoenix? I realize that it is alleged Waltz gave Julia Thomas gold, but I'm not sure how credible this account is.

 

[cactusjumper]

Indeed Oro - it IS minuteia, but I agree that it's interesting and in my mind at least it has at least a little bearing on whether Waltz could have had a rich source of gold ore or not. It won't prove anything one way or another, but it's just another piece of a much larger puzzle that's fun to try to put together.

Despite the fact that I disagree with chlsbrns on most everything, this agreement with Starar is a "bugaboo" to me too in that it just doesn't jive with the actions of a man who had a rich source of gold.

I don't have time today to delve into things, so perhaps someone else who has read the pages in Thomas Glover's book that I pointed out above can generate a synopsis of what his theory is as to why Waltz would have entered into this agreement. It's an interesting theory, and it has many side tracks and angles, but I'm not sure I'm a "buyer" of it.

The only real theories I can come up with revolve around the idea that Waltz was a true miser and/or perhaps was a lonely man who realized at this point of his life that $$ can't buy happiness or health. The stickler in my mind to all of this is why not give Andrew Starar the gold (or at least a portion of it) so that he could more easily and better take care of Waltz?

I'm glad some folks are interested in the story - I do think it's an interesting one and while it provides no information whatsoever to help locate Waltz's gold source, it helps paint a picture of the man, and for those of us who enjoy the historical aspect of the legend it keeps us occupied .

Paul,

It's also possible that Waltz knew he didn't really own the property. He could have been manipulating.......everyone.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Cubfan64]

Quick note - I went back and edited both the transcription of the original document (post #2) as well as the "easier to interpret" transcription (post #15) to fill in the missing words I was unable to read and correcting a couple minor mistakes (thanks to Garry and Larry).

Old Bookaroo - A friend just informed me last night that Blair did cover the story as well, so I have yet another source to look at tonight .

Springfield - Your questions are good ones and ultimately some of the more important ones if you really want to tie Waltz to a gold mine or even a gold source. Honestly I think your questions deserve their own thread so please start one and hopefully it will draw some attention - there are stories I've heard alluded to, but have never actually seen them all fleshed out in one place.

I suspect you and I both know what the eventual outcome will be of your questions and the eventual answers (stories?). It's all going to end up being hearsay and you're either going to believe in the credibility of the person who told the stories or you aren't. As I said though, I'd sure like to see a thread where ALL of those stories are laid out for each of us to evaluate and interpret as we see fit.

Go for it!

 

[chlsbrns]

The agreement also gives a general area of his property. It's not near 16th as has been written numerous times. Its in the area of:

https://maps.google.com/maps?q=gila...77487,-112.304177&fspn=0.012418,0.030899&z=16

Surely anyone with gold would have cached it on their property. Is there gold buried near the area above? Probably!

Forget that map. The salt and gila rivers have moved so much that pinpointing any location is nearly impossible. From 1948 to 2007 they change significantly but once you check older topo's, early 1900's overlaid on google earth it's amazing just how much they have changed and how far they moved!

View the video FULL SCREEN

 

[chlsbrns]

Which of Waltz signatures are forged? The "Agreement" or his witnessing a mining claim or both?

No way both are the same signature from the same person.

Actually Starar's sigs don't match either!

 

[chlsbrns]

Jacob Starar IS Jacob Waltz! Or visa versa

See if you can figure it out: Maricopa County Recorder

Con man extraordinaire!

 

[vor]

Jacob Starar IS Jacob Waltz! Or visa versa

See if you can figure it out: Maricopa County Recorder

Con man extraordinaire!

Can you just lay out your theory and point us to the corresponding docs?
Thx.
v

No way both are the same signature from the same person.
Actually Starar's sigs don't match either!

Maybe their 19th century copy machine was broke and the doc had to be hand transcribed.

Note:
The standard embossed notary seal of the time is shown figuratively.
The writing style does not appear to be 19th century.

 

[Hal Croves]

It is not that strange that he died with so few possession. It seems that he spent as Duppa spent and perhaps actually did send some of the money to family Europe. Fortunes were made and lost several times over by prospectors who never knew when to quit.
Think about the anxiety before every return to the mine. Noseys trailing you, danger in every canyon.. a dead or missing partner. It must have been horrible... the thought of returning alone. But one trip a year would be better than working.

 

[somehiker]

Many reclusive people die, leaving wads of cash behind which few, if any knew about.Mattresses and coffee cans etc stuffed full of bills dating many years backwards. We read about it in the newspapers and see the stories on tv. They didn't trust the banks, had no family or had other reasons, but usually weren't known to spend a lot on what would make their wealth visible to others, or even change addresses more than once, if at all.
Waltz sounds like this kind to me. Perhaps he was fearfull that if word got out that his bank was a box under his bed, that he might have been robbed, or even killed for his gold. It's not all that uncommon for that to happen, even in today's world. If so, I think it's reasonable he may not have told anyone (except Rhinehart, who said he recovered the box from the farm after the flood) about it until moments before his death. People who knew him, did know he had a piece of land and a house on that land which he had built himself. They also knew he had chickens and sold eggs, which would satisfy most that he had some income to cover personal expenses. They also knew that he was formerly a prospector who had become, in his sunset years, a settler and farmer.
Sure, he told stories about a rich gold mine, as I think many prospectors did then and do today when being social. Those hearing the stories about the old man's days as a miner were probably somewhat attentive and may have even remembered some of the details after word got out about Waltz's ore. What most of them probably considered tall tales, even Julia, Rhiney, and Holmes up till then, became much more real when Holmes walked away with that candle box.
I don't see anything in the document which indicates Waltz was destitute.
Only that he was an old man who knew the time would come where he might not be able to take care of himself. But he wanted to be able to continue living at home....at least until the flood washed it away. That he simply made this agreement with his friend and neighbor Starrar, with payment being from what everyone, including Starrar, already knew he had.

Regards:SH

 

[chlsbrns]

Many reclusive people die, leaving wads of cash behind which few, if any knew about.Mattresses and coffee cans etc stuffed full of bills dating many years backwards. We read about it in the newspapers and see the stories on tv. They didn't trust the banks, had no family or had other reasons, but usually weren't known to spend a lot on what would make their wealth visible to others, or even change addresses more than once, if at all.
Waltz sounds like this kind to me. Perhaps he was fearfull that if word got out that his bank was a box under his bed, that he might have been robbed, or even killed for his gold. It's not all that uncommon for that to happen, even in today's world. If so, I think it's reasonable he may not have told anyone (except Rhinehart, who said he recovered the box from the farm after the flood) about it until moments before his death. People who knew him, did know he had a piece of land and a house on that land which he had built himself. They also knew he had chickens and sold eggs, which would satisfy most that he had some income to cover personal expenses. They also knew that he was formerly a prospector who had become, in his sunset years, a settler and farmer.
Sure, he told stories about a rich gold mine, as I think many prospectors did then and do today when being social. Those hearing the stories about the old man's days as a miner were probably somewhat attentive and may have even remembered some of the details after word got out about Waltz's ore. What most of them probably considered tall tales, even Julia, Rhiney, and Holmes up till then, became much more real when Holmes walked away with that candle box.
I don't see anything in the document which indicates Waltz was destitute.
Only that he was an old man who knew the time would come where he might not be able to take care of himself. But he wanted to be able to continue living at home....at least until the flood washed it away. That he simply made this agreement with his friend and neighbor Starrar, with payment being from what everyone, including Starrar, already knew he had.

Regards:SH

I'm assuming that no one read the docs?

No one noticed that Waltz's property was sold off in chunks by Jacob Starar in spite of the fact that it was Andrew who was to get the property? In spite of the fact that the property was sold before Waltz's alleged death.

That fact alone blows a big hole in the LDM "story"
waltz couldn't have been in his home when the flood hit if there was even a flood. No gold to be retrieved after the flood, ect.

There is more to be found in the docs but you guys will have to do your own due diligence!

I also suggest doing some searches for the Starar brothers.

Read the agreement again & look for the word "live"

 

[Cubfan64]

I'm assuming that no one read the docs?

No one noticed that Waltz's property was sold off in chunks by Jacob Starar in spite of the fact that it was Andrew who was to get the property? In spite of the fact that the property was sold before Waltz's alleged death.

That fact alone blows a big hole in the LDM "story"
waltz couldn't have been in his home when the flood hit if there was even a flood. No gold to be retrieved after the flood, ect.

There is more to be found in the docs but you guys will have to do your own due diligence!

I also suggest doing some searches for the Starar brothers.

Read the agreement again & look for the word "live"

Although I have not found confirmation of it, I believe Andrew Starar passed away around 1883 and for certain well before Waltz. There have been searches made for probate information or a will, but to date I don't believe it's been located. Until or unless those records can be found, there's no way to know exactly how Jacob Starar became the owner of all that property - especially since Andrew had a son over the age of 18 by that time.

Jacob Starar slowly started selling off portions of that land over the years until he was left with only a very small portion and eventually he passed away in March of 1893 (2 years after Waltz died).

I'm not into "playing games" like "I found something in the documents, now you go see if you can find what I did." It's counterproductive when everyone's time is valuable and disrespectful as well, so I'm going to make the grand assumption here that you are implying that this line in the agreement...

he the said party of the second part will furnish to the said party of the first part all necessary food and clothing required by the said party of the first part together and protection and all necessary medicines and attendance when sick he the said party of the first part having with the said party of the second part shall himself live and shall take such care of him the said party of the first part as shall be necessary and proper

somehow means that Andrew Starar and Jacob Waltz would now be living together, and you've concluded that means that Jacob Waltz is actually Jacob Starar. Lots of problems with that theory, but if you want to float it out there, go for it, just do us a favor and back it up with some facts.

My interpretation of that line is such that if/when Jacob Waltz becomes in ill health, Andrew will move in with Waltz and care for him as he would a family member, not that as of the date of the agreement they would move in together permanently.

As to whether there was a flood or not, I'll let you look that one up in newspapers of the time since it's a VERY well documented event in the Phoenix history of 1891 (February I believe). If you have trouble locating it, I'll see if I can find a couple pages to post.

You seem to be all over the map with your theories on a daily basis. One day Waltz killed and stole all his ore from the Vulture Mine, the next he was actually a book publisher and in a conspiracy with all sorts of people to perpetrate a fraud (to what end, I have no idea), and now your theory is that Jacob Waltz and Jacob Starar are one in the same.

One of the things you mentioned does have merit and that's the fact that Jacob Waltz's signatures do not have many similarities on the 2 documents several years apart. I'm certainly no handwriting expert, and I can assure you that my signature from 5 years ago doesn't look much like it does now, but it's worth thinking about at least.

Wish I had more time to delve into all this, but the next week or two is going to be really busy with work, holidays and too much travelling. I'll keep adding things as I have time, but I recommend again that anyone interested read the sections of Thomas Glover's book and Robert Blair's book mentioned earlier in regards to the Starar brothers.

 

[chlsbrns]

Not only do The multitude of "stories" take you all over the place the few facts take you all over the place. That's my fault?

Twice you have asked for proof of waltz being a theif & twice I've told you where to look. Have you looked? Obviously not based on your last post.

I showed directory pages with numerous people including waltz in the directory but you choose to ignore the directory because I did not provide the details of the directory for you to look for yourself. If I had the info would you look it up? Or do as you have done with the waltz being a theif info aka not look it up & keep throwing it in my face? Do you think I would waste my time making a phony directory?

Did you look at the deeds to see Walt's property sold off before his alleged death?

Somehow you think I should provide everything to you on a silver platter? You promised to provide numerous facts have you? Have I thrown it in your face….. The fact that you haven't? No!

As far as starar & waltz being one in the same... Did you look? Did you even try to figure it out? Did you look up starars place e of birth? Did you do anything or just call it my theory?

Do some research on the starar brothers. Not so much in c!aims made by authors of books but real research. The ldm books are the reason for so much confusion. Which book would you believe?

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=sr_nr_n_2?rh=n%3A283155%2Ck%3Alost+dutchman&keywords=lost+dutchman&ie=UTF8&qid=1387432773&rnid=2941120011

If you choose to not look... You should not criticize!

 

[Hal Croves]

somehiker
I think that this is a great post. But some of your ideas are off I believe. How on earth do you think that Rhieny could have found that last stash of gold on the Dutchman's farm/ranch that, at that point, had been essentially washed away? We know that there was a flood... Questioning that fact is pointless (Duppa and the Starars were found riding out the flood on a roof) but I feel that you have confused some of the story. Rhieny recovered the Dutchman's ore but it was from an old adobe ruin that Walzer/waltz directed him to.. more specifically in one of the back rooms of that ruin. I think that this "fact" has been twisted into a clue.

Not 100% sure but there is some intrigue regarding the Starars. Something about a robbery, stollen money and hiding the take in walls. I will have to look back at my notes.

 

[Hal Croves]

Not only do The multitude of "stories" take you all over the place the few facts take you all over the place. That's my fault?

Twice you have asked for proof of waltz being a theif & twice I've told you where to look. Have you looked? Obviously not based on your last post.

I showed directory pages with numerous people including waltz in the directory but you choose to ignore the directory because I did not provide the details of the directory for you to look for yourself. If I had the info would you look it up? Or do as you have done with the waltz being a theif info aka not look it up & keep throwing it in my face? Do you think I would waste my time making a phony directory?

Did you look at the deeds to see Walt's property sold off before his alleged death?

Somehow you think I should provide everything to you on a silver platter? You promised to provide numerous facts have you? Have I thrown it in your face….. The fact that you haven't? No!

As far as starar & waltz being one in the same... Did you look? Did you even try to figure it out? Did you look up starars place e of birth? Did you do anything or just call it my theory?

If you choose to not look... You should not criticize!

Regarding your posts... I think that you are here to help but your ideas are new and difficult to follow. When you challange known history (the February flood) it undermines your work... which I myself find worth reading. The Starars should be looked at very carefully... I will leave it to you to explain to everyone why.

One last thing about signatures. When analyzing them don't look so much at the different examples as a whole. Look at each letter and the way it was constructed... How it was formed. While one persons signature will vary from example to example the structure of their writing seldom changes.
Keep telling your story!

The signatures were made by the same hand. Just my opinion but an expert might come to the same conclusion. Too many similarities in the way the letters were made .

 

[somehiker]

somehiker
I think that this is a great post. But some of your ideas are off I believe. How on earth do you think that Rhieny could have found that last stash of gold on the Dutchman's farm/ranch that, at that point, had been essentially washed away? We know that there was a flood... Questioning that fact is pointless (Duppa and the Starars were found riding out the flood on a roof) but I feel that you have confused some of the story. Rhieny recovered the Dutchman's ore but it was from an old adobe ruin that Walzer/waltz directed him to.. more specifically in one of the back rooms of that ruin. I think that this "fact" has been twisted into a clue.

Not 100% sure but there is some intrigue regarding the Starars. Something about a robbery, stollen money and hiding the take in walls. I will have to look back at my notes.

Hal:

I don't recall the circumstances exactly, but by "washed away" I don't mean totally obliterated without a trace remaining. What remained of his home may very well have been an adobe ruin. The tree in which Rheiney found Waltz was probably still standing, as well as other things things which may have helped him find the box, based on Waltz's directions. I don't see any problem with that scenario at all.

Paul:

There has never been any records produced to indicate that Waltz had been compelled to leave his home before the flood, correct?
As I read it, the agreement/contract states that he is turning over ownership of the farm to Andrew Starar, and that Andrew agrees to take care of Waltz's necessities for as long as Andrew should live. Although there is no clause which obligates Jacob Starar to honour the agreement in the event of Andrew's death, it's possible IMO, that he may have done so. The gradual sale of the land in parcels may have generated enough cash for both to live on, at least until the flood.
It also seems to me that Waltz kept the Starars in the dark vis a vis his box of ore, so he may have not trusted him/them implicitly.... another reason for the contract as well as the $50.00 CASH payment. Waltz may not have wished to sell any gold, for the reason I gave in the last post. Especially being older and less capable of fending for himself....and I doubt they lived in the same house together.
If Waltz had a written will, who knows, maybe it was in the box under his bed

Didn't Waltz kill a Mexican who was at his home ?

 

[chlsbrns]

Regarding your posts... I think that you are here to help but your ideas are new and difficult to follow. When you challange known history (the February flood) it undermines your work... which I myself find worth reading. The Starars should be looked at very carefully... .

They are not my ideas they are things that I have found or noticed.

I wasn't challenging known history I never looked up any info on the flood so I didn't know if there was a flood or not.

There is a lot of info on the Starar brothers out there. They were filthy rich so there was no need to sell Waltz's land to generate enough cash for Waltz and Starar to live on.

It was Jacob who sold off Waltz's land. Land that was given by Waltz to Andrew.

Being that both Starar brothers were part of the forming of the Town government (Phoenix) I'm sure they had a lot of pull and could get away with things. Like modern day corruption.
http://phoenix.gov/citygovernment/facts/history/

 

[Springfield]

Many reclusive people die, leaving wads of cash behind which few, if any knew about.Mattresses and coffee cans etc stuffed full of bills dating many years backwards. We read about it in the newspapers and see the stories on tv. They didn't trust the banks, had no family or had other reasons, but usually weren't known to spend a lot on what would make their wealth visible to others, or even change addresses more than once, if at all.
Waltz sounds like this kind to me. Perhaps he was fearfull that if word got out that his bank was a box under his bed, that he might have been robbed, or even killed for his gold. It's not all that uncommon for that to happen, even in today's world. If so, I think it's reasonable he may not have told anyone (except Rhinehart, who said he recovered the box from the farm after the flood) about it until moments before his death. People who knew him, did know he had a piece of land and a house on that land which he had built himself. They also knew he had chickens and sold eggs, which would satisfy most that he had some income to cover personal expenses. They also knew that he was formerly a prospector who had become, in his sunset years, a settler and farmer.
Sure, he told stories about a rich gold mine, as I think many prospectors did then and do today when being social. Those hearing the stories about the old man's days as a miner were probably somewhat attentive and may have even remembered some of the details after word got out about Waltz's ore. What most of them probably considered tall tales, even Julia, Rhiney, and Holmes up till then, became much more real when Holmes walked away with that candle box.
I don't see anything in the document which indicates Waltz was destitute.
Only that he was an old man who knew the time would come where he might not be able to take care of himself. But he wanted to be able to continue living at home....at least until the flood washed it away. That he simply made this agreement with his friend and neighbor Starrar, with payment being from what everyone, including Starrar, already knew he had.

Regards:SH

You're certainly correct about old loners such as Waltz who live nearly invisible lives despite hiding their wealth from public knowledge. I met a guy like that myself once - someone my grandpa worked with summers at a South Lake Tahoe resort in the '60's. I met him when I was lucky enough to land a summer job there. He cut the grass, hauled trash, slept in the bunkhouse, kept to himself. Thing was, he was a millionaire - bought Xerox stock for pennies when it was first offered and rode it to the top. Wore dirty old work clothes.

Your speculative Waltz scenario seems reasonable considering what little we know, but since we're speculating, here's another possible scenario. Waltz was a tramp miner for many years in the west, filing claims of his own, working in others' mines - whatever. Thousands of guys did it. Let's say he high-graded a nice stash of gold ore from one of the places he worked - the Vulture, for example. A serious crime if caught, but it's a tradition and many got away with it (happened all the time in the mine I worked in in '74). By the time he was in his 50's and broken down, he move to Phoenix, bought a piece of dirt and started raising chickens. The ill-gotten ore was under the bed.

He liked to roam the hills playing prospector when the weather was right - reminiscing about his younger years. He enjoyed being recognized as the 'old prospector'. He mostly sat on the ore because he was afraid of being accused of stealing it if and when he sold any. When making a small sale, he intimated that it came from the nearby hills. It bolstered his ego and standing in the community - not a bad thing for an old loner. Of course, he filed no mining claim since there was no mine, but rumors of rich Mexican mines in the area propped up his cover story for the source of the ore. He kept things secretive.

When the end was near, people became more interested in the source of the gold, but Waltz's pride was too great to admit that he stole the ore years earlier and that there was no mine. So he pointed at the roughest terrain he was familiar with and described a phantom mine that nobody would ever find - maybe that would get them off his back. When he realized that the rat Holmes was going to steal his stash on his last day, he told Holmes a real doozey of a story to send him on a very long snipe hunt.

End of Waltz's life - a likable but guilty man who tried to salvage his reputation by concocting a plausible story to try to iron out his past indiscretions. The greedy hoard that followed his demise looking for the phantom mine went wild and created a legend that will live forever.

 

[Somero]

I wasn't challenging known history I never looked up any info on the flood so I didn't know if there was a flood or not.

I have posted information about the history of flooding in Maricopa County twice, apparently you were not interesting in reading it. Some really good Facts, if that is what you are looking for

 

[Somero]

Since Waltz was already legally bound to Starar and had relinquished his property and possessions he intended Julia and Rhiney to "inherit" the gold ore, after all his home was unlivable and they deserved some compensation. Still does not answer where that ore came from, but it does not mean he did not do any prospecting in the Superstitions.