Agreement between Jacob Waltz and Andrew Starar (8/8/1878) - what was it all about?

[pippinwhitepaws]

good luck on finding relevant documents in Arizona...
between 1848-1880, documentation is problematic...

 

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[Cubfan64]

First... Where does it say that the Starar brothers went from well to do to pretty rough shape? One of the "brothers" died long before the other so the "brothers" could not both go from well to do to pretty rough shape.

"He surmises that at some point they decided to try their hand at mining"
This does not imply that mining was something new to them or at least to Jacob being that Andrew was dead? So when I said: "Glovers "theory" is wrong. The starar brothers were into mining before they went to Arizona" I was informing that they had already tried their hand at mining. This was done before they arrived in Arizona and during their stay in Arizona and after Andrew died.





They went to Fotuna California. Maybe that's why they were selling the Arizona properties? A hotel was built in Fortuna in their honor. The had a ranch in Fortuna. Where does it say they went to "fairly poor? And again "THEY" implies both brothers. Can a dead guy be "fairly poor?"

FYI: A Brief History of Fortuna in Northern California.

"Henry Rohner's home was located on the lot next to the present-day Veteran's Memorial building on Main Street, currently occupied by a restaurant. He bought 350 acres of land from the Starar brothers and donated to Fortuna the land for its first city park, but during the late 1800's flooding destroyed the land. The deed of the parkland was signed by Abraham Lincoln, and a replica may be seen in the Park's Depot Museum. In the early 1900's Mary Rohner, Henry's widow, sold the town a total of 53 acres of the family's land in three installments. This is now the location of the present-day Rohner Park. Rohner's daughter, Elizabeth Barcus Rohner, sold the third section of land to the City for one dollar with the stipulation that the park's name never be changed."

"The Starar Brothers

Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine, and it looks like Andrew may even have owned most of the town at one time and sold part of it to Henry Rohner. Historic documents refer to them variously as the Star, Starr, Starar and Starrar brothers from Arizona."

Did Andrew die when his name stopped appearing in recorded documents or did he just move to Fortuna and everyone assumed that he died?

Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine ...sure implies that both brothers left Arizona for Fortuna

That sure makes me think Glovers "theory" was totally incorrect or a total fabrication.

I clarified what I said earlier that I was referring to their time in Phoenix and not before.

Perhaps Andrew did return to California at some point after the agreement with Waltz in 1878 - that's an interesting theory. Let us know if you find any documentation to back that up.

As to whether or not the Starar brother's "originally came from Arizona" as the link states, the census records I've seen indicate they were in California and then came to Arizona. Perhaps they spent some time in Arizona a first time before going to California in the 1850's.

 

[somehiker]

The two dates mentioned in the link provided, are 1854 and 1876.
Both earlier than the date of the Starar-Waltz agreement of 1878.
The author of the link is obviously wrong.

Springfield:

Sounds like PegLeg Smith was very well known, far and wide....a self promoter even.
With Waltz being more laid back and secretive being a large part of the problem.

"I have my own ideas about Waltz - maybe I oughtta write a book and cash in on the gravy train too. "

Thought I read somewhere that you just recently published a book.
Does that mean you've already boarded that train ?

Regards:SH.

 

[chlsbrns]

As to whether or not the Starar brother's "originally came from Arizona" as the link states, the census records I've seen indicate they were in California and then came to Arizona. Perhaps they spent some time in Arizona a first time before going to California in the 1850's.

The quote from the Fortuna History website did not state "originally came from Arizona" it said "originally of Arizona"

In fact it says: "Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine" To be connected to the LDM the Starar's would have to have been in Arizona before they "RETURNED" to California.

The census records that you have seen, can you provide any documentation? Screen shot? Links?

 

[pippinwhitepaws]

CHAPTER IV. SETTLEMENT OF THE SALT RIVER VALLEY.

 

[Hal Croves]

One problem. How could Waltz tell the Holmes story when he dying. So ill Julia ran for the Dr.
Cover stories are common after a crime and a good point.

Holmes was not there at the end... and Waltz had no connection to Julia before the flood. Appr. 300 people were left homeless after the disaster and just about everyone took in a victim. Julia was expected to do the same and by chance(?) was asked to take Waltzer/Waltz.

It is clear who was there and who was not. It is also clear that Holmes and Julia conspired to pinch the gold that Rhieny retrieved from the adobe ruin.

Regarding the Starars... It would be interesting to compare census information taken before and after the flood. It may explain to some degree multiple last names at one location.



This is a great thread!

I have always wondered about the roll of women in the Starar's family circle. They seem noticeably absent... Actually that is true for Waltzer/waltz, & Duppa as well.

 

[Cubfan64]

Holmes was not there at the end... and Waltz had no connection to Julia before the flood. Appr. 300 people were left homeless after the disaster and just about everyone took in a victim. Julia was expected to do the same and by chance(?) was asked to take Waltzer/Waltz.

It is clear who was there and who was not. It is also clear that Holmes and Julia conspired to pinch the gold that Rhieny retrieved from the adobe ruin.

Regarding the Starars... It would be interesting to compare census information taken before and after the flood. It may explain to some degree multiple last names at one location.



This is a great thread!

I have always wondered about the roll of women in the Starar's family circle. They seem noticeably absent... Actually that is true for Waltzer/waltz, & Duppa as well.

Hal - we've done a little work together on researching some things and I respect your ability to find obscure documents and evidence. That said, the statements you made in red above sound like statements of fact and not your opinions or theory. Can you provide anything other than deductive reasoning to back those statements up?

Especially in regards to "who was there and who was not" when Waltz was on his death bed, that question has been around since very early on and I've never seen anything "clear" about it.

I'm glad there's an interest in this topic as well - the big problem with a subject like this is it's so easy to go off in multiple directions that really don't have much to do with the original subject. It's really hard to "herd cats" so to speak - in fact, I'm as much at fault as anyone else in moving the thread to different directions .

 

[Somero]

The quote from the Fortuna History website did not state "originally came from Arizona" it said "originally of Arizona"

In fact it says: "Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine" To be connected to the LDM the Starar's would have to have been in Arizona before they "RETURNED" to California.

The census records that you have seen, can you provide any documentation? Screen shot? Links?

From the Fortuna site
"Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine, and it looks like Andrew may even have owned most of the town at one time and sold part of it to Henry Rohner. Historic documents refer to them variously as the Star, Starr, Starar and Starrar brothers from Arizona. In 1854 Andrew and Jacob signed a petition to the governor of California requesting protection from Indians in Humbolt County, and both men supposedly signed "Starar"."

"In 1876 William McKinney named the Star Hotel building in honor of the Starar brothers, who owned a ranch near the Mad River. McKinney was impressed with the brothers because they kept a herd of elk in a fenced area in town,"

chlsbrns

Perhaps you can provide some actual documentation that could give us a clear timeline for Andrew and Jacob, perhaps dates of births and deaths, census records to give an idea of where they were and when? Might go a long way in your disapproving ideas of Jacob Waltz.

 

[chlsbrns]

From the Fortuna site
"Andrew and Jacob Starar, originally of Arizona, are Fortuna's connection to the legendary Lost Dutchman's Mine, and it looks like Andrew may even have owned most of the town at one time and sold part of it to Henry Rohner. Historic documents refer to them variously as the Star, Starr, Starar and Starrar brothers from Arizona. In 1854 Andrew and Jacob signed a petition to the governor of California requesting protection from Indians in Humbolt County, and both men supposedly signed "Starar"."

"In 1876 William McKinney named the Star Hotel building in honor of the Starar brothers, who owned a ranch near the Mad River. McKinney was impressed with the brothers because they kept a herd of elk in a fenced area in town,"

chlsbrns

Perhaps you can provide some actual documentation that could give us a clear timeline for Andrew and Jacob, perhaps dates of births and deaths, census records to give an idea of where they were and when? Might go a long way in your disapproving ideas of Jacob Waltz.

You must have missed where I said: ""RETURNED " to California"

cubsfan claims to have "seen" census records but is ignoring my question in my last post (in red above) Can't imagine why being that he demands verification of everything that everyone posts.

I've actually contacted a Fortuna Historian who says he will provide info to me this weekend.

 

[Somero]

You must have missed where I said: ""RETURNED" to California"

cubsfan claims to have "seen" records but is ignoring my question in red above. Can't imagine why being that he demands verification of everything that everyone posts.

I've actually contacted a Fortuna Historian who says he will provide info to me this weekend.

Your theory, you provide proof. Looking forward to what you might find.

 

[chlsbrns]

Your theory, you provide proof. Looking forward to what you might find.

It's not a theory it's history. As I've already stated I was told that the information will be provided to me this weekend by a Fortuna Historian.

The text of the email reads:

I have some info but will need to find it + get back to you. I found much when including the search terms Star, Starr, Starar and Starrar. Might be this weekend...

Much like the document that is the subject of this thread the names were spelled wrong.

SEARAR & WALLY are shown in the records book instead of Starar & Waltz.
http://recorder.maricopa.gov/recdocdata/GetRecDataDetail.aspx?rec=18780000165&suf=

 

[Somero]

It's not a theory it's history. As I've already stated I was told that the information will be provided to me this weekend by a Fortuna Historian.

The text of the email reads:

I have some info but will need to find it + get back to you. I found much when including the search terms Star, Starr, Starar and Starrar. Might be this weekend...

Just wondering since there was no Arizona at that time to be from "ORIGINALLY"

SEARAR & WALLY are shown in the records book instead of Starar & Waltz.
Maricopa County Recorder

The link actually has more than one document, if you have not noticed. Maybe brush up on "Legaleez"

 

[Springfield]

... Springfield:

"I have my own ideas about Waltz - maybe I oughtta write a book and cash in on the gravy train too."

Thought I read somewhere that you just recently published a book.
Does that mean you've already boarded that train ?

Regards:SH.

Touche! Ha ha. Actually, I did self-publish a memoir at the urging of one of my partners in the memories. Why? So that the discoveries we made would not fade away when we all take the dirt nap. Needing a dozen or two hard copies for gifts, I found that it's much cheaper to self-publish than it is to go to Kinkos. The only reason the book is available to the public is due to the agreement that it must be offered on Amazon. Gravy train? At 59 cents/copy to me, it's more like a dry stale biscuit. I will say this - it's a good story straight from the horse's mouth. And no hand-scrawled maps of dubious origins, but exact coordinates.

 

[Cubfan64]

Touche! Ha ha. Actually, I did self-publish a memoir at the urging of one of my partners in the memories. Why? So that the discoveries we made would not fade away when we all take the dirt nap. Needing a dozen or two hard copies for gifts, I found that it's much cheaper to self-publish than it is to go to Kinkos. The only reason the book is available to the public is due to the agreement that it must be offered on Amazon. Gravy train? At 59 cents/copy to me, it's more like a dry stale biscuit. I will say this - it's a good story straight from the horse's mouth. And no hand-scrawled maps of dubious origins, but exact coordinates.

Hey there!!! How about a little self promotion there Springfield!!! I know it's not the topic of this thread, but I'd be interested in reading what you wrote if it's at all "treasure" related!!! Got a link or a name or a way to get a copy??

To be honest, I don't think there's much of a gravy train in the line of LDM books. I recall talking to Dr. Glover about that a few years ago and he implied that there's such a limited market for it that there's not much money there at all.

 

[roadrunner]

Touche! Ha ha. Actually, I did self-publish a memoir at the urging of one of my partners in the memories. Why? So that the discoveries we made would not fade away when we all take the dirt nap. Needing a dozen or two hard copies for gifts, I found that it's much cheaper to self-publish than it is to go to Kinkos. The only reason the book is available to the public is due to the agreement that it must be offered on Amazon. Gravy train? At 59 cents/copy to me, it's more like a dry stale biscuit. I will say this - it's a good story straight from the horse's mouth. And no hand-scrawled maps of dubious origins, but exact coordinates.

What is the name of your book and where to get one?

 

[chlsbrns]

Did anyone know that Dr Andrew Starrar was Waltz's cousin?

 

[Somero]

Did anyone know that Dr Andrew Starrar was Waltz's cousin?

Been some speculation on that..........................keep diggin'

 

[UncleMatt]

I'm curious too!

 

[chlsbrns]

Well now there is proof that the Starrar brothers were mining in AZ in 1873, five years before the Waltz agreement. I guess Dr. Glovers "theory" is yet again proven wrong.


Another tidbit to look up: Starrar Jacob A Little War of Our Own AZ 979.16 P72d 209-210 Bio

Another bit of info: Am looking for an obit, death notice or any other evidence of either Jacob Starar or Andrew Starar in Tulare CO. The are often refered to as the Starar brothers though by this time Jacob may no longer be living. Jacob bn abt 1821 and Andrew about 1822 both born in Würtenburg. Name is sometimes spelled, Star, Starr, Starrar, Starer, etc... Any help would be appreciated. They were in Humboldt Co for about a decade in 1850/60's, trinty county before that; Idaho in 1860's, AZ by late 1860's. Appreciate the help. Blessings!

 

[chlsbrns]

Waltz and the Starar brothers were born in or came from Würtemburg