A LOOK AT JAMES BEVERLY WARD, AGENT OF THE BEALE PAPERS

[ECS]

Its not me that has been complaining, Franklin, or posting insults, spinning facts from imagination.

 

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[franklin]

You are a hopeless case. No more responses. Just keep talking nothing from nothing leaves nothing.

 

[ECS]

If you say so, Franklin, you do seem be an expert on that.
Are you now finished with calling me names?
That would be a nice start.

 

[ECS]

James Beverly Ward- copyright holder, publisher, possible author
Harriet E Otey Ward- wife, possible contributor of Beale's description
John William Sherman- cousin, pamphlet printer, possible contributor with Shakespeare reference
Max Guggenheimer- friend, names is used in story, sold copies at his store
F C Hutter- cousin, possible contributor of DOI "solved" cipher"
Charles W Button- Sherman's boss, owner of THE LYNCHBURG VIRGINIAN that advertised the Beale Papers
V A Witcher- objected to his ancestors name mentioned in the dime novel pamphlet
Rowland Buford, Margaret L Buford, Ann Buford Hall-children of Pascal and Francis Buford who professed no knowledge of Thomas Beale's stay at Buford's Tavern or of the treasure vault story.

One must take into consideration that James Beverly Ward applied for copyright on borrowed stationary from Adams Bros & Paynes Feed Store, a company at which his son in law, William Johns, worked with only the title, not the manuscript.
Was that because the manuscript was not finished being written, as apposed to this "unknown" author presenting Ward with a completed manuscript to act as copyright agent.
...AND, most importantly to notice, is that Ward applied for copyright only after the death of Pascal Buford's wife, Francis, the last person who could confirm or deny Beale's stay at Buford's which is mentioned in the job pamphlet.
Applied for copyright without the manuscript and after the last witness who verify a critical part of the story, is one of many items that make the Beale story suspect.

 

[ECS]

Also, this alleged manuscript would reveal that instead of the mysterious "unknown" author, the handwriting was that of James Beverly Ward, once employed by John William Sherman to set up type for printing, destroyed.
Thereby, the only people who saw this "original" manuscript would have been Ward, his wfe, Harriet , Sherman, and possibly Ward's son in law, William D Johns, who supplied the Adams Bros & Paynes Feed Store letterhead on which Ward applied for copyright.

 

[Old Silver]

One must take into consideration that James Beverly Ward applied for copyright on borrowed stationary from Adams Bros & Paynes Feed Store, a company at which his son in law, William Johns, worked with only the title, not the manuscript.
Was that because the manuscript was not finished being written, as apposed to this "unknown" author presenting Ward with a completed manuscript to act as copyright agent.
...AND, most importantly to notice, is that Ward applied for copyright only after the death of Pascal Buford's wife, Francis, the last person who could confirm or deny Beale's stay at Buford's which is mentioned in the job pamphlet.
Applied for copyright without the manuscript and after the last witness who verify a critical part of the story, is one of many items that make the Beale story suspect.

The problem with your little theory, at least part of it, is that we have proved it to be wrong. You say Pascal Buford's wife, Francis, was the last person who could confirm or deny Beale's stay at Buford's which is mentioned in the job pamphlet. I have shown, and anyone can look it up for themselves, that there were quite a few people alive in 1885 Lynchburg that would have been alive, and of age, in the early 1820s, at the time of Beale's stay. To say that Francis Buford was the last person to have known is just false. But in this you have proved something about one of your earlier theories. You apparently believe, and I would agree, that the family of some of the names in the beale story that you claim were upset over the use of the names of their ancestors would not have been alive at the time of Beale's visit. That should tell you that the only people who were NOT upset over the story were those who WERE alive at the time of Beale's visit. And those are the one's who WOULD HAVE BEEN upset, if there had never been such a visit.

Also, I notice you said, "Was that because the manuscript was not finished being written, as apposed to this "unknown" author presenting Ward with a completed manuscript to act as copyright agent." WAS IT...COULD IT... DID IT..., that's all you have. If you're going condemn other posters for considering possibilities, then you shouldn't do so yourself.

 

[ECS]

... I have shown, and anyone can look it up for themselves, that there were quite a few people alive in 1885 Lynchburg that would have been alive, and of age, in the early 1820s, at the time of Beale's stay. To say that Francis Buford was the last person to have known is just false. But in this you have proved something about one of your earlier theories. You apparently believe, and I would agree, that the family of some of the names in the beale story that you claim were upset over the use of the names of their ancestors would not have been alive at the time of Beale's visit. That should tell you that the only people who were NOT upset over the story were those who WERE alive at the time of Beale's visit. And those are the one's who WOULD HAVE BEEN upset, if there had never been such a visit...

Francis Buford was the LAST person who could confirm the stay of Thomas J Beale, and the Buford children stated that they had no knowledge of a Beale visit, not even a subject of family lore.

Yes, you mention on another thread that there could still be people alive in 1885 who would know of this visit.
Now if you have names and affidavits of these people stating that they were aware of a visit by Thomas J Beale, bring them forth.
AS for your statement that those alive during Beale's alleged visit would not be upset of the use of their ancestors names is pure pretzel logic nonsense based on vapors of hopeful speculation that has permeated the discussions on these Beale threads.

After 130 years after the Beale Papers publication, No One, not even you can present evidence that Thomas J Beale existed outside of Ward's dime novel job pamphlet that is the reason why all these alternative stories, like the Thomas Read massacre are promoted to be the "REAL" story behind the that presented in the narrative text of Ward's dime novel.

 

[ECS]

...
I notice you said, "Was that because the manuscript was not finished being written, as apposed to this "unknown" author presenting Ward with a completed manuscript to act as copyright agent." WAS IT...COULD IT... DID IT..., that's all you have. If you're going condemn other posters for considering possibilities, then you shouldn't do so yourself.

Can you explain if Ward was given the finished manuscript by this "unknown" author, why did he apply for copyright with ONLY the works title?
"To me, the pamphlet has all the earmarks of a fake...no evidence save the word of the unknown author of the pamphlet that he ever had the papers"- Dr Clarence Williams, Researcher, Library of Congress
I reckon you know more qualified than a Library of Congress researcher.

 

[Old Silver]

Francis Buford was the LAST person who could confirm the stay of Thomas J Beale, and the Buford children stated that they had no knowledge of a Beale visit, not even a subject of family lore.

Yes, you mention on another thread that there could still be people alive in 1885 who would know of this visit.
Now if you have names and affidavits of these people stating that they were aware of a visit by Thomas J Beale, bring them forth.
AS for your statement that those alive during Beale's alleged visit would not be upset of the use of their ancestors names is pure pretzel logic nonsense based on vapors of hopeful speculation that has permeated the discussions on these Beale threads.

After 130 years after the Beale Papers publication, No One, not even you can present evidence that Thomas J Beale existed outside of Ward's dime novel job pamphlet that is the reason why all these alternative stories, like the Thomas Read massacre are promoted to be the "REAL" story behind the that presented in the narrative text of Ward's dime novel.

You can do the same research that I did and find out for yourself that there were those still living in 1885 in Lynchburg that would have been of age in the early 1820s. If you don't want to, that's fine, but I have seen it. Therefore, i know that your last witness to Beale is not accurate.


I didn't say those alive during Beale's alleged visit would not be upset of the use of their ancestors names. Read it again. I said those who were alive at that time WOULD HAVE been upset, if they heard a story that they knew never happened. The ones you claim were upset were apparently not alive during the time of Beale's visit, so how can you take their opinions as proof of anything? I don't even think you know who Jackson, Clay, Coles, Witcher, etc. were. You seem to have some of them confused with other people of the same name. Besides, you have shown no proof that anyone ever objected to any names being used in the story. All you ever do is say that this one said this and that one said that. N proof. But what if they did object? That only means that they either didn't believe the story (many people don't), or they didn't want the story to get out. That some people back then didn't believe the story is not proof that it didn't happen, anymore than people believing it means it did happen.


You like to quote your favorite "expert," the one who's opinion has the Beale story as fake. His own words tell you it's nothing but his opinion. And he could be right. But then there are other "experts" who has a different opinion of the story. I know, those are not real expert to you, though they have the same credentials, or better, than the one you like. But neither is proof, either for, or against. It's all opinion.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

Now then... does ANYONE know when the BEALE PAPERS PAMPHLET was released to the Lynchburg, Va. PUBLIC...? Was it April 1, 1885...? Was it an APRIL FOOL'S JOKE by John William Sherman & Charlie Button...? INQUIRING Minds wanna KNOW! HA!

 

[franklin]

Now then... does ANYONE know when the BEALE PAPERS PAMPHLET was released to the Lynchburg, Va. PUBLIC...? Was it April 1, 1885...? Was it an APRIL FOOL'S JOKE by John William Sherman & Charlie Button...? INQUIRING Minds wanna KNOW! HA!

April 15, 1886.

 

[ECS]

You can do the same research that I did and find out for yourself that there were those still living in 1885 in Lynchburg that would have been of age in the early 1820s. If you don't want to, that's fine, but I have seen it. Therefore, i know that your last witness to Beale is not accurate...

So you claim, but you never produce any names to support this.

Do you ever intend to produce anything of substance concerning the subject matter discussed, or are you just posting to continue the stalking harassment and badgering you began in October 2013 on another thread?
That does seem to be your only contribution to these Beale threads.

 

[ECS]

...
You like to quote your favorite "expert," the one who's opinion has the Beale story as fake. His own words tell you it's nothing but his opinion. And he could be right. But then there are other "experts" who has a different opinion of the story. I know, those are not real expert to you, though they have the same credentials, or better, than the one you like. But neither is proof, either for, or against. It's all opinion.

The "experts" you question are professionals in their given fields who have either worked on the ciphers or investigated the historical none existence of the Beale Party perilous adventure.
...and you can question their findings based on your being a professional expert in what field?

 

[ECS]

... I don't even think you know who Jackson, Clay, Coles, Witcher, etc. were. You seem to have some of them confused with other people of the same name...

Andrew Jackson who attended at dinner in Lynchburg along with Thomas Jefferson, J B Risqué, and Pascal Buford.
Rec Charles Green Clay of Lynchburg
Col Issac Coles of Lynchburg
Major William Witcher of Lynchburg
A little basic research will reveal who they were.

 

[Rebel - KGC]

April 15, 1886.

TY, franklin!

 

[ECS]

... Post a copy of the 1934 newspaper article if you can because Lt. Thomas Fawcett could not find it...

LT Thomas Fawcett did not have to search for Martha Rivers Adams article because as his letter to Col William Friedman clearly states, he interviewed her and she accompanied him to the interview with 96 yo Adeline Ward McVeigh, and Mrs Adams recommended a hotel to him during his stay.
http://www.angelfire.com/pro/bealeciphers/Graphics/We_left_Saturday.pdf

 

[ECS]

Also, this alleged manuscript would reveal that instead of the mysterious "unknown" author, the handwriting was that of James Beverly Ward, once employed by John William Sherman to set up type for printing, destroyed.
Thereby, the only people who saw this "original" manuscript would have been Ward, his wfe, Harriet , Sherman, and possibly Ward's son in law, William D Johns, who supplied the Adams Bros & Paynes Feed Store letterhead on which Ward applied for copyright.

"Knowledge of this affair was confined to a very limited circle-to the write's immediate family, and to one old and valued friend"
What is curious is that Ward, Sherman, Ward's son in law, William Johns, Adeline Ward McVeigh's husband and her daughters husband and family did not search for the Beale treasure based on the "authentic statements" contained in the dime novel pamphlet.

 

[franklin]

Why would they search for the treasure? They simply did not know where to look. Thirty-two thousand acres within four mile circle of Buford's. Too much territory without knowing where to look. Been there done that. That is exactly why James Beverly Ward spent all of his time trying to decypher the code papers according to Fawcett's four page survey.

 

[ECS]

The statement concerning Ward "working" the ciphers, came from Lt Thomas Fawcett's interview with Gorham B Walker, Ward's great grandson, and during the same interview Walker gave conflicting remarks.
"Mr Walker admitted having a copy of the Beale Papers in which he placed no credence".
...and then
"from him we verified the fact that his great grandfather Ward had spent many years of his life working at the Beale ciphers and thought that undoubely Mr Ward was the true author of the Beale Papers".
So Walker gave the story in the job pamphlet "no credence" and believed his great grandfather the "true author" of the Beale Papers, yet claimed that his great grandfather "spent many years working at the Beale ciphers".
The handwritten notes in the margin indicate that the "working at the Beale ciphers" statement was probably second hand knowledge heard from his mother and grandmother.

 

[franklin]

The statement concerning Ward "working" the ciphers, came from Lt Thomas Fawcett's interview with Gorham B Walker, Ward's great grandson, and during the same interview Walker gave conflicting remarks.
"Mr Walker admitted having a copy of the Beale Papers in which he placed no credence".
...and then
"from him we verified the fact that his great grandfather Ward had spent many years of his life working at the Beale ciphers and thought that undoubely Mr Ward was the true author of the Beale Papers".
So Walker gave the story in the job pamphlet "no credence" and believed his great grandfather the "true author" of the Beale Papers, yet claimed that his great grandfather "spent many years working at the Beale ciphers".
The handwritten notes in the margin indicate that the "working at the Beale ciphers" statement was probably second hand knowledge heard from his mother and grandmother.

Still 50/50. That four pages of Lt. Fawcett is for and against. So nothing new. You think I would give you a link without reading it. If you look at one of those pages you will find that Mrs. Adams did not want to talk to him till he gave her a letter of introduction. Also a copy of the letter she had sent to the copyright office asking about the Beale Story in 1934. And that was as I said fifteen years before Lt. Fawcett came to Lynchburg in 1949.

As for Gordon saying what he did about his grandfather James Beverly Ward have you ever talked to anyone about you being a treasure hunter. That in itself would answer your question.