A Heap of Proof.

[starman 1]

The Way

Hello Mr. Roberts:

I really enjoyed your comments regarding the maps and how folks can change their opinions of them. I agree with you completely that the trail maps are the real deal. Having said that the H/P Carving does serve a purpose.

I am very interested in your thought`s regarding Al Reser`s view of the Latin Heart. In your excellent post you mention the trail maps and Al:


"Then I started to learn about the real story. The more I learned the more I realized there was another side to things. It was Al Reser that finally swayed me over toward the belief side. Al would come out to my ranch at New River and stay and he and I would sit out in the bunkhouse and I'd listen to his explanations and look at his maps. He told me all the stories about Tumlinson, Charlie Miller, Noble Dwyer, Clyde Koyen, Doc Rosecrans, CO Mitchell and the finding of the Stone Maps. I remember clearly sitting at the kitchen table in Al's house in Apache Junction as he spread out his topo map with the stone maps and Heart drawn out in detail onto it. Al believed passionately in the Stone Maps and he was right there involved with them from day one. Al Reser clearly influenced my decision I admit that. As I said, I can't prove the Stone Maps are authentic, it is simply my belief that they are."

Matthew

Just a little background information. Reser appears to have had a copy of the Latin Heart, and would not give Jim Hatt a copy. It seems then Jim Hatt obtained a copy of the Latin heart from someone in Texas. This quote is from his work, "The Peralta Stone Maps", page 13.

"then one afternoon I received a phone call from Tom Kollenborn, a local well-known historian and author, who knew i was searching for a copy. During the conversation he announced that he had located one which was in the possession of a friend, whom he did not name, currently living in Texas. Within three days Tom presented me with these copies of the Latin Heart".

Based on my discussions with Larry Webb I thought those copies might have come from him. I am now wondering if the copies came from the Tumlinsons or someone close to the family. If so this very well maybe the link to showing the trail maps came from another location right up the road. Maybe not.

Hello Hal,

Didn`t mean to hijack your thread. Just wanted to clarify this.


Thanks,

Starman

 

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[Hal Croves]

Hello Mr. Roberts:

I really enjoyed your comments regarding the maps and how folks can change their opinions of them. I agree with you completely that the trail maps are the real deal. Having said that the H/P Carving does serve a purpose.

I am very interested in your thought`s regarding Al Reser`s view of the Latin Heart. In your excellent post you mention the trail maps and Al:


"Then I started to learn about the real story. The more I learned the more I realized there was another side to things. It was Al Reser that finally swayed me over toward the belief side. Al would come out to my ranch at New River and stay and he and I would sit out in the bunkhouse and I'd listen to his explanations and look at his maps. He told me all the stories about Tumlinson, Charlie Miller, Noble Dwyer, Clyde Koyen, Doc Rosecrans, CO Mitchell and the finding of the Stone Maps. I remember clearly sitting at the kitchen table in Al's house in Apache Junction as he spread out his topo map with the stone maps and Heart drawn out in detail onto it. Al believed passionately in the Stone Maps and he was right there involved with them from day one. Al Reser clearly influenced my decision I admit that. As I said, I can't prove the Stone Maps are authentic, it is simply my belief that they are."

Matthew

Just a little background information. Reser appears to have had a copy of the Latin Heart, and would not give Jim Hatt a copy. It seems then Jim Hatt obtained a copy of the Latin heart from someone in Texas. This quote is from his work, "The Peralta Stone Maps", page 13.

"then one afternoon I received a phone call from Tom Kollenborn, a local well-known historian and author, who knew i was searching for a copy. During the conversation he announced that he had located one which was in the possession of a friend, whom he did not name, currently living in Texas. Within three days Tom presented me with these copies of the Latin Heart".

Based on my discussions with Larry Webb I thought those copies might have come from him. I am now wondering if the copies came from the Tumlinsons or someone close to the family. If so this very well maybe the link to showing the trail maps came from another location right up the road. Maybe not.

Hello Hal,

Didn`t mean to hijack your thread. Just wanted to clarify this.


Thanks,

Starman

I don't feel that you have ever "hijacked" one of my threads. Conversations go where they go.

I read that John Jackson Tumlinson "Peg-Leg" was a stoneman. Not knowing what a stoneman was, I found the definition to mean, among other things, a surveyor. I am not sure.

 

[Hal Croves]

Gen.#3
Children of: John Jackson Tumlinson
And: Elizabeth Plemmons


Thomas Carney TUMLINSON,
b. 23 Sep 1797, Burke County, North Carolina, USA , d. Apr 1823, Miller County, Arkansas Territory, USA

​

Thomas Carney Tumlinson, a nephew of John J. Jr. and Joseph Tumlinson also settled in DeWittCo. His father Thomas Carney Sr. (b. 1797 NC), son of John J. and Elizabeth Tumlinson Sr., was killed by Indians in Arkansas before he was born. After he was grown, his adopted parents revealed the identity of his real parents and Thomas came to Texas. He lived on Cabeza Creek about five miles south of the site of Nordheim where he raised a family of nine children and in 1881 moved to the Lampasas area.

View attachment 1181470

Jane TUMLINSON,
b. 23 Feb 1799, Burke County, North Carolina, USA , d. Abt 1858 (Age 58 years)

​

"Married Elijah Ratcliff (1798-1837) Son: Richard (CSA) 14 June, 1862 Camp Crussel Goliad Company F Hobby's Reg. Marauder Command 8th Texas Infantry"

James TUMLINSON,
b. 1801, Burke County, North Carolina, USA , d. Abt 1801, Burke County, North Carolina, USA (Age 0 years)
​

View attachment 1181235
​

Peter Frank TUMLINSON,
b. 16 Nov 1802, North Carolina, USA , d. 19 Oct 1882 (Age 79 years)
​

"These words from author Sam H. Tumlinson pay the due homage and respect to our extraordinary ancestor as “ ... a diplomat, a man of integrity, a competent military leader, an attorney, a devoted father and husband devoid of self enrichment schemes. Peter was committed to assisting his fellow travelers. We his descendants would take pride ... in preserving the memory ofthis man — our honored forefather".

"Reference to Captain Peter Tumlinson’s initiation into Freemasonry, Grand Lodge of Texas records note that Peter Tumlinson was initiated 30 September 1851, passed 15 November 1851 and raised 17 January 1852 in Cameron Lodge No.76 at Yorktown. Joseph Tumlinson was listed as a charter member of Cameron Lodge No. 76. Afterwards, Peter demitted in 1853 and affiliated as a Charter Member of Pleasanton Lodge No. 283. On 19 October 1865, the “ ... first meeting was called by R.W. Sir H.M. Daugherty DDGM of the 18th Masonic District of the Most Worshipful Grand Lodge of Texas for the purpose of organizing Pleasanton Lodge U.D.” At this meeting, Peter Tumlinson was listed as being present as the Charter Treasurer and member at formation of the Pleasanton Lodge U.D."

"Many “Masonic Rangers” of prominence are from this period and included John Henry Moore, Lafayette Lodge No. 34, James H. Callahan and Creed Taylor of Coleto Lodge No. 124, Edwin Burleson, McFarland Lodge No. 3 and finally Daniel Boone Friar of Victoria Lodge No. 40. Captain Peter F. Tumlinson was an equal to these Masons in embracing the principle of upholding the law."

John Jackson TUMLINSON,
b. 19 Dec 1804, Tennessee, USA , d. 1853, DeWitt County, Texas, USA (Age 48 years)
​

"John J. Tumlinson, born 19 Dec 1804 in probably NC (some records call him a native of Tennessee),is the best known of the Tumlinsons because of his prolific record as a military leader and Indian fighter involved in security of the DeWitt Colony, particularly the area around current Cuero covering most of current DeWitt County and northern Victoria County. His life and activities are covered in more detail under DeWitt Colony Captains, Rangers and Minutemen. He was a farmer, rancher and land trader in addition to his role as a minuteman ranger. His first wife Laura Cottle was the daughter of Stephen and Sarah Turner Cottle of the Austin Colony. Laura Cottle was the sister of Harriett Cottle, wife of Capt. Tumlinson's brother Andrew. After wife Laura and their son Joseph died, Capt. Tumlinson moved to the community of Clinton on the Chisholm tract across the Guadalupe River from current Cuero. Tumlinson married Delaney Asher then her sister Mary Ann Asher. John Tumlinson died in May 1853 leaving one known heir, daughter Amanda L. Tumlinson. She was raised by John's brother Peter in Atascosa County and married Cullen W. Edwards."

Andrew TUMLINSON,
b. 31 Jan 1806, d. 1830/1831 (Age 24 years)

Catherine TUMLINSON,
b. 13 Mar 1809, Tennessee, USA , d. 14 May 1854, DeWitt County, Texas, USA (Age 45 years)
​

View attachment 1181234

Joseph L. TUMLINSON,
b. 16 Feb 1811, Tennessee, USA , d. 23 Nov 1874, DeWitt County, Texas, USA (Age 63 years)
​

"TUMLINSON, JOSEPH (1811–1874). Joseph Tumlinson, early settler and participant in the Texas Revolution, was born in Tennessee in 1811 to John Jackson and Elizabeth (Plemmons) Tumlinson[SUP]qv[/SUP], who moved to Texas when Stephen F. Austin began his colonization program. As a lad of twelve, Joseph was one of the rangers who tracked and punished his father's murderers. He lived with his mother on her headright until her death in 1829. In 1831 he received his own headright in Green DeWitt's colony. He located this adjoining the headright of widow Hephzibeth Taylor. In 1834 Joseph married her daughter, Johanna. They had no children. Tumlinson enrolled on September 28, 1835, as a private in Capt. Robert M. Coleman's company of rangers. He was discharged in November 1835. He reenlisted for the duration and served with the same company at the battle of San Jacinto on April 21, 1836. He was discharged on July 1, 1836, and enlisted again on July 4, 1836, in Capt. William Scurlock[SUP]qv[/SUP]'s company, San Augustine County. He later transferred to Capt. Richard Hooper's company and was discharged from this service on October 13, 1836. After Johanna's death Tumlinson married Elizabeth Newman in March 1840. They had two sons and four daughters. They settled near Eagle Lake, then moved to a ranch near Yorktown. After the Civil War Tumlinson was a local peace officer. In 1874 he was awarded a pension for his military service. He died on November 23, 1874, and was buried on his ranch near Yorktown. His widow died in 1906 and was buried near Sutherland Springs; her grave is unmarked".

"Joseph Tumlinson, who according to GrandLodge of Texas records, later demitted to Pleasanton No. 283 in 1871 from Coleto Lodge No. 124 after its demise that same year. He was initiated 13 May 1848, passed 10 Marchand raised as Master Mason in Victoria Lodge No. 40 in 14 May 1849. He demitted 14 August 1851 to Cameron Lodge No. 76 of Yorktown meanwhile being listed as a charter member beforehand in 1850. Then, by 1852, Joseph affiliated with Coleto Lodge No. 124 in the same township. The years 1867 and 1868 saw Joseph serving as Junior Warden of the Lodge. Finally",

"Joseph Tumlinson received a quarter sitio arriving single in Feb 1829 on the south boundary of current Cuero on the banks of the Guadalupe River between tracts of Byrd Lockhart and Hepzibeth Taylor. Hepzibeth and Josiah Taylor were parents of William Riley Taylor who married Joseph's sister Elizabeth Tumlinson. Widow Hepzibeth Taylor later married Patrick Dowlearn a neighbor to both the Taylors and Tumlinsons. Joseph Tumlinson married Johanna Taylor, daughter of Josiah and Hepzibeth Taylor in April 1834. After Johanna's death, Joseph married Elizabeth Newman in 1838, thought to be the widow of the Newman killed with John J. Tumlinson Sr. in 1824. After Texas independence, Joseph settled in Eagle Lake in ColoradoCo and later moved to Yorktown in DeWittCo where he was a rancher where he served continuously as a minuteman and Ranger with his relatives in security of the area. Known as "Jo" Tumlinson, he became involved in the infamous Taylor-Sutton Feud of DeWitt County and formed a group known as the Tumlinson Regulators on the side of the Suttons. At one time he was a deputy sheriff of DeWitt County. He died on his ranch in November 1874. His descendants include numerous Texas lawmen which include Milam Wright, William L. Wright, Charles H. Wright and E.A. (Dogie) Wright who served Texas as rangers, sheriffs, custom agents and border patrol officers from 1898 to 1969."

View attachment 1181239
​

"Joseph Tumlinson “ ... answered the call to arms by enrolling in Captain Lockhart’s Company of Spies and was at Gonzales when the news came that the Alamo had fallen and its defenders had been destroyed. He left Gonzales with the Texas Army and served to the date of his discharge, 1 July 1836".

Elizabeth TUMLINSON,
b. 13 Jul 1814, Tennessee, USA , d. 22 Feb 1886 (Age 71 years)

Mary Ann TUMLINSON,
b. 13 Mar 1817, Illinois, USA , d. 1823 (Age 5 years)

Rachel TUMLINSON,
b. 15 Mar 1818, A
​

"Tumlinson Headstone Restoration and Marking of Texas Rangers' Graves
June 22, 2002

​

"The descendants of Captain Peter Tumlinson and Harriett West Tumlinson met at Mount Hope Cemetery, Carrizo Springs, Texas, to dedicate replacement headstones for Captain Peter and Harriett TUmlinson, and the son, Joel Maurice Walker Tumlinson. Bert Lee Bell of Carrizo Springs, member of the Tumlinson Family Committee served as Master of Ceremonies. Other members of the Tumlinson Family Committee are Charlsie English Moore of New Braunfels, Mary Acord Reimschissel of San Antonio and Alfred R. "Buddy" Tumlinson of Corpus Christi. Also participating in the organization of this ceremony was the Dimmit County Historical Society. A large group of Tumlinson family members donated money to replace the old stones, which had become unreadable. Rev. Donald Tumlinson read a Memorial Tribute to Verner Lee Bell, Carrizo Springs historian and a member of the planning committee who died before the dedication. Rev. Tumlinson also conducted the dedication of the new headstones.

The Former Texas Ranger Association assisted by the "Badlands Rangers" and a unit of the Mounted Border Patrol conducted the Marking Ceremony of seventeen Texas Rangers who are buried at Mount Hope Cemetery. Retired Texas Ranger Rudy Rodriguez led the Riderless Horse. Family members unveiled the Texas Ranger Markers, placed at the foot of the graves of their ancestor, as Retired Texas Ranger Ray Martinez of New Braunfels, President of the Former Texas Ranger Association read the Mount Hope Texas Ranger Honor Roll."

Tumlinson Headstone

 

[Oroblanco]

Not only that, why would they tell anyone, even their acquaintances? If you're smart enough to know something, chances are you're also smart enough to keep quiet.

Human nature. One example, of many:

California couple finds $10 million in gold coins buried in backyard - latimes

People love to share the news of their good fortune. Even some whom have supposedly been keeping things quiet, really have not kept it quiet at all. This kind of secret is not so easy to keep.

Happy 4th of July!

 

[sdcfia]

Human nature. One example, of many:

California couple finds $10 million in gold coins buried in backyard - latimes

People love to share the news of their good fortune. Even some whom have supposedly been keeping things quiet, really have not kept it quiet at all. This kind of secret is not so easy to keep.

Happy 4th of July!

Human nature is what gets people in trouble.

You're comparing apples and oranges in this case. These lucky California folks lawyered up immediately and covered/negotiated every possible downside long before their find was announced to the public - chain of ownership research on property, legal notices in several newspapers to satisfy probate requirements for non-response of potential claimants (similar to a title search), escrow account set up to pay taxes, etc. And, of course, these fortunate people remained anonymous - identified in the media only as "John and Mary". I think you'll find that nearly all "legal luckies" (Powerball winners eg) would much rather not announce their good fortune to the world.

"John and Mary" is quite a different situation from that of some guy finding a cache of gold or other valuables somewhere on public land or on property owned by another party. This type of finder ought to know - unless they're hopelessly naive - that our legal system will not allow them to keep their discovery. Even "Treasure Trove Claims" offer little protection, IMO, when the dust finally settles. What's to gain from drawing attention to your new-found wealth?

 

[Hal Croves]

Human nature is what gets people in trouble.

You're comparing apples and oranges in this case. These lucky California folks lawyered up immediately and covered/negotiated every possible downside long before their find was announced to the public - chain of ownership research on property, legal notices in several newspapers to satisfy probate requirements for non-response of potential claimants (similar to a title search), escrow account set up to pay taxes, etc. And, of course, these fortunate people remained anonymous - identified in the media only as "John and Mary". I think you'll find that nearly all "legal luckies" (Powerball winners eg) would much rather not announce their good fortune to the world.

"John and Mary" is quite a different situation from that of some guy finding a cache of gold or other valuables somewhere on public land or on property owned by another party. This type of finder ought to know - unless they're hopelessly naive - that our legal system will not allow them to keep their discovery. Even "Treasure Trove Claims" offer little protection, IMO, when the dust finally settles. What's to gain from drawing attention to your new-found wealth?

Finding anything of value on public lands would be IMO, potentially disastrous for the discoverer. Besides being thrown into the spotlight that unfortunate person would face years of suspicion, criticism, mounting legal bills, and in the end, if there even was an end, I doubt that their initial investment would be returned. But, if I were the unfortunate person who found something of value in the SWA, I would, at my own expense, document the hell out of it, professionally if possible. Once that was finished, I would shout it from the roof tops and saturate the press with everything but the exact location.

That's when I would approach the authorities. It may seem naive to tip your hand but in doing so, you ensure openness in a system that isn't always transparent. Find it, document it, present to the press, then report it to officials. The press or the internet, both great equalizers.

The other approach is to keep it quiet and to take what you need as you need it, all along, hoping that you never get caught.

From what I have read in other threads, this approach has already been proven.



More stone maps...

 

[Hal Croves]

More about Arkansas.

Date: Monday, August 9, 1926 Paper: Evansville Courier and Press (Evansville, Indiana) Page: 3

View attachment 1183259


Attached:
Date: Sunday, August 1, 1926 Paper: Greensboro Record (Greensboro, North Carolina) Page: 31

 

[Hal Croves]

Finding anything of value on public lands would be IMO, potentially disastrous for the discoverer. Besides being thrown into the spotlight that unfortunate person would face years of suspicion, criticism, mounting legal bills, and in the end, if there even was an end, I doubt that their initial investment would be returned. But, if I were the unfortunate person who found something of value in the SWA, I would, at my own expense, document the hell out of it, professionally if possible. Once that was finished, I would shout it from the roof tops and saturate the press with everything but the exact location.

That's when I would approach the authorities. It may seem naive to tip your hand but in doing so, you ensure openness in a system that isn't always transparent. Find it, document it, present to the press, then report it to officials. The press or the internet, both great equalizers.

The other approach is to keep it quiet and to take what you need as you need it, all along, hoping that you never get caught.

From what I have read in other threads, this approach has already been proven.



More stone maps...

The sheriff in this story doesn't remember carving the stones as a young boy.
The symbols "cut" in this case, were inspired by a collection of paper or parchment maps.


Date: Monday, April 21, 1958 Paper: Times-Picayune (New Orleans, Louisiana) Page: 26

 

[Hal Croves]

In Unique Volume, J. Frank Dobie Has Collected Fascinating Stories of Lost Mines and Long-Hidden Treasure
Date: Sunday, February 1, 1931 Paper: Dallas Morning News (Dallas, Texas).

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal did anthony fenninger know gus or the tumlinsons
there seems to be a few stone maps attached to the
arkansas area, wonder if there the same stone maps
that has made there way to TX and AZ

View attachment 1182712

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85034322/1922-01-28/ed-1/seq-7.pdf

Anthony in Texas.
$1,000,000 in crisp Confederate bills...

Coronado's Gold Sought in Brazos River Brakes
Date: Tuesday, January 2, 1951 Paper: Dallas Morning News

 

[Hal Croves]

Travis Tumlinson
Age 19, Education (poor), No. of Years at School (4), Time of Coviction (April 16, 1929) Terms of Imprisionment (2 Yeaars) Ofense (Burglary), Plea (Guilty),
Discharged on January 20, 1931, Travis would have missed Eastham's first Prison Rodeo by nine months.

View attachment 1183994

View attachment 1184003

View attachment 1184102
findagrave
-----------------------------------------------
​

View attachment 1183989

​

"The Eastham family purchased a 12,790 acre plantation in 1891. Property was leased soon afterward to the Texas State Prison System for farming on a shared basis. The landowner supplied seeds, machinery, tools and mules, while the State provided labor to plant, tend and harvest the crops. The state received 60 percent of the cotton and 50 percent of the sugar cane. The State bought the land in 1915 after the death of Mrs. Delha Eastham. Eastham Prison Farm was among the first to construct a maximum security building in 1919. The State Ferry, erected in 1920 by convict labor, crossed the Trinity River into Madison County. Prisoners used picks and shovels to cut into the steep river banks to build a road wide enough for wagon travel. Unrest among the prisoners was curtailed when noted penologist O.B. Ellis, General Manager of the prison system including Eastham, ushered in more progressive treatment of the inmates. Advancements included improved living and working conditions, introduction of a library, gymnasium, craft shop and chapel, and an education program. Eastham continues to be a major part of the State's prison system. Community benefits include improved roads and a source of employment."

Source: Texas Historical Commission

View attachment 1184010

SHSU Special Collections and University Archives
​

"About three years later Simmons accepted the position of general manager of the state prison system. This last appointment, which he held until November 1935, necessitated his residence in Huntsville. Simmons later played a major role in assembling the group of lawmen and informants who ambushed the gangsters Clyde Barrow and Bonnie Parker near Gibsland, Louisiana, on May 23, 1934. He is credited with general reform and improvement of conditions in Texas prisons. Critics, however, most notably Marcellus E. Foster, editor of the Houston Press, charged that Simmons tolerated brutality on the part of his employees and worked to conceal administrative problems in the prison system. Simmons instituted the Texas Prison Rodeo, the state's "fastest and wildest rodeo," at Huntsville in October 1931."

https://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/online/articles/fsi17

View attachment 1183991

Eastham Camp 1-Dormitory 1930

​

"It was here, behind the furthest column that Clyde had killed his first man,a vicious building tender named Ed "Big Ed" Crowder. The 6' tall 200 pound Ed had been preying upon the young Clyde Barrow who decided that he wasn't going to take it any more. His separation from Bonnie, the wait for a reduction in his sentence, the heavy workload in the fields and witnessing a young inmate being murdered by an older convict left Clyde feeling hopelessly despondent. Unaware that his mother's attempts to obtain an early parole for him were successful, he hada fellow convict chop off two of his toes with an axe. This way he could get a break from his duties on the farm while recovering in the prison infirmary. The youthful Barrow was granted an early parole and he left the prison on February 2, 1932 on crutches."

 

[Hal Croves]

View attachment 1184109
​

Dallas Morning News (Dallas TX)
San Antonio Siftings
Thursday 04 April, 1889
"May 16, 1881, occurred the Altita pen killing, one of the most celebrated in the criminal annals of Texas. It was a fight over some alleged stolen cattle, and was between what was known as the Wright gang on one side and officers on the other, and Deputy Sheriff McCoy of Gonzales County was slain. Numerous indictments followed and some arrests were made. One Daly Durand turned state's evidence and joined the ranger service for protection. One year later Young Loyns of Karnes County was put on trial, with change of venue. Durand testified against him but he acqquitted. About a dozen others were indicted and their trials were to come up subsequently. Among this number was John Tumlinson, a one-legged man from Atascosa County. On the day after Loyn's trial Durand concluded that he no longer needed protection and left for Atascosa County with two or three parties suspected in the Altita affair. He did this in the face of strenuous advice from the officers. Three days later his body was found on the side of the road riddled with bullets. Tumlinson was afterward convicted of hog theft and was given five years in the penitentiary He has served his term and yesterday passed through on his way to Atascosa in charge of officers and will be put on trial charged with the murder of Daly Durand. It is supposed that some new evidence has been secured."

View attachment 1184106

View attachment 1184108





​

 

[Hal Croves]

Jonh Jackson Tumlinson "Peg-Leg" is living with his daughter Lillie (b.1874) and her husband Arnold Kensington (b.1874) in the 1920 census (17 January 1920).
Exactly two weeks later, John Jackson is dead, cause of death: Heart Failure.

Travis was 10.

View attachment 1184293

View attachment 1184294
​

 

[Oroblanco]

Human nature is what gets people in trouble.

You're comparing apples and oranges in this case. These lucky California folks lawyered up immediately and covered/negotiated every possible downside long before their find was announced to the public - chain of ownership research on property, legal notices in several newspapers to satisfy probate requirements for non-response of potential claimants (similar to a title search), escrow account set up to pay taxes, etc. And, of course, these fortunate people remained anonymous - identified in the media only as "John and Mary". I think you'll find that nearly all "legal luckies" (Powerball winners eg) would much rather not announce their good fortune to the world.

"John and Mary" is quite a different situation from that of some guy finding a cache of gold or other valuables somewhere on public land or on property owned by another party. This type of finder ought to know - unless they're hopelessly naive - that our legal system will not allow them to keep their discovery. Even "Treasure Trove Claims" offer little protection, IMO, when the dust finally settles. What's to gain from drawing attention to your new-found wealth?

I respectfully disagree on this, 100%. We even have in the LDM legend, a group that claims to have found the famous mine, got wealthy from their find, broke some laws in the process, and although they have been supposedly keeping silent, they could not keep quiet and let it slip to friends and in fact one of the group went so far as to write a "Fictional" book on how he found the LDM, and later even hinted at it directly on national TV "haw haw". It does indeed get people into legal troubles when they announce their great finds, as with the fellow who found a box, old currency and coins and a pistol in Death Valley national monument a few years back. What did he get charged with? Not filing a treasure trove claim. If you wish we can post a good number of examples where people immediately announced to the newspapers (and other media) when they have made great discoveries of treasures. It may seem like a very stupid thing to you, but it is what most people would do. Besides, keeping it silent, runs risks every bit as great or more so, in terms of getting caught, tax evasion, trespass etc. It is a great plan to think that you will keep silent if you make a great find, but my bet is that even you would not be able to keep silent about it.
I could be wrong of course.

 

[Not Peralta]

Oroblanco Amigo,
AS far as that group goes,after them being around that area forever,I think they could come up with something more original, but I guess they have to be noted for something, plus some think its good for their business . HAHAHAHAHA , NP

 

[sdcfia]

I respectfully disagree on this, 100%. We even have in the LDM legend, a group that claims to have found the famous mine, got wealthy from their find, broke some laws in the process, and although they have been supposedly keeping silent, they could not keep quiet and let it slip to friends and in fact one of the group went so far as to write a "Fictional" book on how he found the LDM, and later even hinted at it directly on national TV "haw haw". It does indeed get people into legal troubles when they announce their great finds, as with the fellow who found a box, old currency and coins and a pistol in Death Valley national monument a few years back. What did he get charged with? Not filing a treasure trove claim. If you wish we can post a good number of examples where people immediately announced to the newspapers (and other media) when they have made great discoveries of treasures. It may seem like a very stupid thing to you, but it is what most people would do. Besides, keeping it silent, runs risks every bit as great or more so, in terms of getting caught, tax evasion, trespass etc. It is a great plan to think that you will keep silent if you make a great find, but my bet is that even you would not be able to keep silent about it.
I could be wrong of course.

Well, all I can say is that if I found some sort of treasure on public land or on someone else's property, and I wanted to attempt to keep it for myself, I would remain silent about the discovery. Other folks' results may vary.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Not wishing to change the thread, but how about Tayopa Oro, NP ? It has been extensively discussed here in TN openly. So you see things ''''can''' be discussed openly.

Course that isn't in La La land.

 

[Oroblanco]

Not wishing to change the thread, but how about Tayopa Oro, NP ? It has been extensively discussed here in TN openly. So you see things ''''can''' be discussed openly.

Course that isn't in La La land.

Well there is a rather big difference, in that Tayopa is under claim. That provides some legal protection, and discourages at least some would-be diggers from intruding. If the LDM were under claim by someone, how many of us here, would be trying to sneak in to it? I would not, and doubt that many others would. Flying lead leaves a bad taste and can even result in "heartburn" never to be forgot.

 

[Hal Croves]

Well there is a rather big difference, in that Tayopa is under claim. That provides some legal protection, and discourages at least some would-be diggers from intruding. If the LDM were under claim by someone, how many of us here, would be trying to sneak in to it? I would not, and doubt that many others would. Flying lead leaves a bad taste and can even result in "heartburn" never to be forgot.

So, oroblanco, I want to ask your thoughts on this pattern that is emerging. The decedents of two families with similar histories finding their way to the Phoenix area and becoming involved in treasure hunting. Both using some type of coded map which just happens to be inscribed into stone tablets. In your opinion, is this simply a coincidence?

If so, what if I were to tell you that there is yet another family name to add to that list? Would that influence your opinion or change the odds in your mind? Actually, there is another name and while I am not 100% clear on a connection to stone maps in the SMM, the decedent of this particular family is someone that we lovers of history are well familiar with. Most of us anyway.

Three southern families with deeply rooted southern principles, a documented Masonic involvement, a similar migration history, and a taste for hidden treasure in the Superstitions. And I am not writing about the Holmes family. Not yet anyway. There seems to be quite a few skeptics on TNet that consider this heap of facts irrelevant yet, they are at a loss to explain it.

What do you think based on the information in this thread?
In your mind, is the pattern merely coincidental?
Looking forward to your reply either way. : )

 

[cactusjumper]

So, oroblanco, I want to ask your thoughts on this pattern that is emerging. The decedents of two families with similar histories finding their way to the Phoenix area and becoming involved in treasure hunting. Both using some type of coded map which just happens to be inscribed into stone tablets. In your opinion, is this simply a coincidence?

If so, what if I were to tell you that there is yet another family name to add to that list? Would that influence your opinion or change the odds in your mind? Actually, there is another name and while I am not 100% clear on a connection to stone maps in the SMM, the decedent of this particular family is someone that we lovers of history are well familiar with. Most of us anyway.

Three southern families names with deeply rooted southern principles, a documented Masonic involvement, a similar migration history, and a taste for hidden treasure in the Superstitions. And I am not writing about the Holmes family. Not yet anyway. There seems to be quite a few skeptics on TNet that consider this heap of facts irrelevant yet, they are at a loss to explain it.

What do you think based on the information in this thread?
In your mind, is the pattern merely coincidental?
Looking forward to your reply either way. : )

Hal,

Since you didn't mention the three family names, it is more of a riddle than I, personally, have the mental energy for.

Good luck,

Joe