A Heap of Proof.

[Hal Croves]

joe...as you know i think the stone maps are fakes and everyone has been going about this mystery the wrong way...they all try to prove they arent fakes...i think if people would concentrate their efforts into proving they are fake...this mystery would be cleared up easy enough

I think that this is great advice.
Why not start us off?

Show us that the stone maps are fake with a good heaping of proof.
You have my attention.

 

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[cactusjumper]

I think that this is great advice.
Why not start us off?

Show us that the stone maps are fake with a good heaping of proof.
You have my attention.

Hal,

A "good heaping of proof" can be found in Garry's site. So far, IMHO, Garry is at the top of the Stone Map debunking heap. The rest of us are just treading water that has been in the pool much too long.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I think that this is great advice.
Why not start us off?

Show us that the stone maps are fake with a good heaping of proof.
You have my attention.

Hal Croves and azdave35,

I hold the belief that the two trail Stone Maps are authentic and lead to somewhere in or surrounding the Superstition Mountains. But I cannot prove that. I have a weight of circumstantial evidence that sways me in that direction but no solid iron clad proof. It is what I believe, my own opinion based on what I've personally learned.

On the other hand, in spite of all the Videos, the in depth research, the Tnet Forum Threads, hundreds of posts and thousands of views, there is not one single shed of proof the trail Stone Maps are not authentic. There is a weight of circumstantial evidence but again nothing that proves they are fakes, or frauds or even that Travis Tumlinson was a fraud or a fake. It's all opinion, 100% personal opinion.

I couldn't care less if anyone believes what I believe, I've reached my conclusion and keep an open mind for anything new that might show up. New as in Hal's solid connection of the Tumlinson's history with Stone Maps. Something that cannot be dismissed offhand even by the most hardened skeptics. Once again it doesn't prove anything but it adds weight to one side of the circumstantial evidence.

The debate will go on and on with both sides claiming premature victory. A few posts here have offered some great insight and perspective. Those who have kept an open mind, regardless of their belief, are the winners.

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

Hal Croves and azdave35,

I hold the belief that the two trail Stone Maps are authentic and lead to somewhere in or surrounding the Superstition Mountains. But I cannot prove that. I have a weight of circumstantial evidence that sways me in that direction but no solid iron clad proof. It is what I believe, my own opinion based on what I've personally learned.

On the other hand, in spite of all the Videos, the in depth research, the Tnet Forum Threads, hundreds of posts and thousands of views, there is not one single shed of proof the trail Stone Maps are not authentic. There is a weight of circumstantial evidence but again nothing that proves they are fakes, or frauds or even that Travis Tumlinson was a fraud or a fake. It's all opinion, 100% personal opinion.

I couldn't care less if anyone believes what I believe, I've reached my conclusion and keep an open mind for anything new that might show up. New as in Hal's solid connection of the Tumlinson's history with Stone Maps. Something that cannot be dismissed offhand even by the most hardened skeptics. Once again it doesn't prove anything but it adds weight to one side of the circumstantial evidence.

The debate will go on and on with both sides claiming premature victory. A few posts here have offered some great insight and perspective. Those who have kept an open mind, regardless of their belief, are the winners.

Matthew

Matthew,

I doubt proving the negative concerning the Stone Maps is possible, without further evidence.

Personally, I have always maintained that the trail maps could be very clever, yet accurate, hoax's, as well as legitimate maps to treasure. I did not blindly come to that conclusion based on others research. There is little doubt, in my mind, that they are simply reverse engineered maps.

You believed, from the outset, that the Stone Maps were not real treasure maps. Are you starting to evolve into another line of thought?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Hal Croves and azdave35,

I hold the belief that the two trail Stone Maps are authentic and lead to somewhere in or surrounding the Superstition Mountains. But I cannot prove that. I have a weight of circumstantial evidence that sways me in that direction but no solid iron clad proof. It is what I believe, my own opinion based on what I've personally learned.

On the other hand, in spite of all the Videos, the in depth research, the Tnet Forum Threads, hundreds of posts and thousands of views, there is not one single shed of proof the trail Stone Maps are not authentic. There is a weight of circumstantial evidence but again nothing that proves they are fakes, or frauds or even that Travis Tumlinson was a fraud or a fake. It's all opinion, 100% personal opinion.

I couldn't care less if anyone believes what I believe, I've reached my conclusion and keep an open mind for anything new that might show up. New as in Hal's solid connection of the Tumlinson's history with Stone Maps. Something that cannot be dismissed offhand even by the most hardened skeptics. Once again it doesn't prove anything but it adds weight to one side of the circumstantial evidence.

The debate will go on and on with both sides claiming premature victory. A few posts here have offered some great insight and perspective. Those who have kept an open mind, regardless of their belief, are the winners.

Matthew

matthew..i have alot of respect for you and your opinions and am grateful for all the info on arizona history you have posted...your family has been here since pheonix started and the history that your family has handed down is a great benefit to us all..i also have alot of respect for the time you have spent in the mountains ..as i have said before i have alot of friends around here that totally believe in the stone maps and have spent years trying to unravel the mystery ..i have nothing against them or anyone else that believes in them..they have their beliefs and i have mine..i base my beliefs on what i have heard around here locally just like you do and not on internet research or google earth..there is just too much b.s. concerning those stones to ever prove them real...but it wouldn't take too much to prove them fake....

 

[Not Peralta]

Proof is in the eyes of the beholder, until an actual treasure or proof that something was located at the end of the trail using the stone tablets,there will always be opinions on one side or the other,that lies true with any info or maps,only verifiable info is useful,and tells you that you are on the right track. no matter what anyone says about any thing on these threads some ones always going to have a different opinion about the subject,just cheer each other on.Happy 4th.NP

 

[azdave35]

Proof is in the eyes of the beholder, until an actual treasure or proof that something was located at the end of the trail using the stone tablets,there will always be opinions on one side or the other,that lies true with any info or maps,only verifiable info is useful,and tells you that you are on the right track. no matter what anyone says about any thing on these threads some ones always going to have a different opinion about the subject,just cheer each other on.Happy 4th.NP

wise words...you hit the nail right on the head

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

I doubt proving the negative concerning the Stone Maps is possible, without further evidence.

Personally, I have always maintained that the trail maps could be very clever, yet accurate, hoax's, as well as legitimate maps to treasure. I did not blindly come to that conclusion based on others research. There is little doubt, in my mind, that they are simply reverse engineered maps.

You believed, from the outset, that the Stone Maps were not real treasure maps. Are you starting to evolve into another line of thought?

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

cactusjumper,

In the beginning I bought into the whole package that the Stone Maps were a fraud, Tumlinson and Mitchell were crooks and MOEL Corporation was started for no other reason than to defraud investors. I believed the "experts" who were considered "sages" and wrote weekly columns on Arizona history.

Then I started to learn about the real story. The more I learned the more I realized there was another side to things. It was Al Reser that finally swayed me over toward the belief side. Al would come out to my ranch at New River and stay and he and I would sit out in the bunkhouse and I'd listen to his explanations and look at his maps. He told me all the stories about Tumlinson, Charlie Miller, Noble Dwyer, Clyde Koyen, Doc Rosecrans, CO Mitchell and the finding of the Stone Maps. I remember clearly sitting at the kitchen table in Al's house in Apache Junction as he spread out his topo map with the stone maps and Heart drawn out in detail onto it. Al believed passionately in the Stone Maps and he was right there involved with them from day one. Al Reser clearly influenced my decision I admit that. As I said, I can't prove the Stone Maps are authentic, it is simply my belief that they are.

Matthew

 

[gollum]

For all skeptics,want a mystery or connection.
Why is it everywhere theres a Treasure its on govt land, who is really in charge, remember the Masons that were in charge are the ones trying to figure out how to control the lands.NP

NP,

There is a very good answer as to why so many places where there is treasure supposed to be hidden. I will work on a thread about it sometime today. It will be a little long, but the explanation is very simple. Its not just supposed treasure places. It involves all kinds of natural resources. I first came across the explanation while researching some places in the Chocolate Mountains just East of The Salton Sea.

Mike

 

[cactusjumper]

cactusjumper,

In the beginning I bought into the whole package that the Stone Maps were a fraud, Tumlinson and Mitchell were crooks and MOEL Corporation was started for no other reason than to defraud investors. I believed the "experts" who were considered "sages" and wrote weekly columns on Arizona history.

Then I started to learn about the real story. The more I learned the more I realized there was another side to things. It was Al Reser that finally swayed me over toward the belief side. Al would come out to my ranch at New River and stay and he and I would sit out in the bunkhouse and I'd listen to his explanations and look at his maps. He told me all the stories about Tumlinson, Charlie Miller, Noble Dwyer, Clyde Koyen, Doc Rosecrans, CO Mitchell and the finding of the Stone Maps. I remember clearly sitting at the kitchen table in Al's house in Apache Junction as he spread out his topo map with the stone maps and Heart drawn out in detail onto it. Al believed passionately in the Stone Maps and he was right there involved with them from day one. Al Reser clearly influenced my decision I admit that. As I said, I can't prove the Stone Maps are authentic, it is simply my belief that they are.

Matthew

Matthew,

I never realized you had an actual ranch house with a bunkhouse and all. Was it a cattle ranch? Sounds like you came to your conclusions much like the rest of us.

As I have often said.....In this game it's not so much what you know as who you know.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

I never realized you had an actual ranch house with a bunkhouse and all. Was it a cattle ranch? Sounds like you came to your conclusions much like the rest of us.

As I have often said.....In this game it's not so much what you know as who you know.

Good luck,

Joe

Ranch house and bunkhouse at New River.


Al Reser and I outside the bunkhouse.

Yes, the ranch was part of the old Alkire Triple Bar ranch.
My well was the first stage stations well. When I lived there it was still open range. Cattle and horses ran from New River to the Clines TT ranch north of Table Mesa. The TT Ranch, XS Ranch, Joy Ranch and a half dozen other small ranchers ran cattle and horses on 44,000 acres of leased range. I had 120 head of cattle and a remuda of 8 range horses. When Cline sold out I was in with Steve Bragg at the TT for a couple years. Burl Lann who worked the Clemans ranch and Reavis in the Superstitions was my neighbor down the road. Then I moved to Phoenix and it was history.

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

View attachment 1182602
Ranch house and bunkhouse at New River.

View attachment 1182603
Al Reser and I outside the bunkhouse.

Yes, the ranch was part of the old Alkire Triple Bar ranch.
My well was the first stage stations well. When I lived there it was still open range. Cattle and horses ran from New River to the Clines TT ranch north of Table Mesa. The TT Ranch, XS Ranch, Joy Ranch and a half dozen other small ranchers ran cattle and horses on 44,000 acres of leased range. I had 120 head of cattle and a remuda of 8 range horses. When Cline sold out I was in with Steve Bragg at the TT for a couple years. Burl Lann who worked the Clemans ranch and Reavis in the Superstitions was my neighbor down the road. Then I moved to Phoenix and it was history.

Matthew

nice pic of you and al....when was it taken?

 

[sdcfia]

As I have often said.....In this game it's not so much what you know as who you know.

The ones you know are certainly a strong influence on what you think you know. Trouble is, those who really know usually aren't talking. Those doing the talking all seem to know something different. In the long run, maybe what trumps who.

 

[azdave35]

The ones you know are certainly a strong influence on what you think you know. Trouble is, those who really know usually aren't talking. Those doing the talking all seem to know something different. In the long run, maybe what trumps who.

thats been my point all along,..anyone who really knows where something is doesn't go on the internet and blab about it

 

[Matthew Roberts]

azdave35,

The photo of Al Reser and I outside the bunkhouse at my ranch was taken about 30 years ago, sometime about 1985-1986.

Matthew

 

[sdcfia]

thats been my point all along,..anyone who really knows where something is doesn't go on the internet and blab about it

Not only that, why would they tell anyone, even their acquaintances? If you're smart enough to know something, chances are you're also smart enough to keep quiet.

 

[azdave35]

Not only that, why would they tell anyone, even their acquaintances? If you're smart enough to know something, chances are you're also smart enough to keep quiet.

exactly

 

[cw0909]

Hal did anthony fenninger know gus or the tumlinsons
there seems to be a few stone maps attached to the
arkansas area, wonder if there the same stone maps
that has made there way to TX and AZ



http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85034322/1922-01-28/ed-1/seq-7.pdf

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal did anthony fenninger know gus or the tumlinsons
there seems to be a few stone maps attached to the
arkansas area, wonder if there the same stone maps
that has made there way to TX and AZ

View attachment 1182712

http://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/lccn/sn85034322/1922-01-28/ed-1/seq-7.pdf

Yes, that story is something. And that is the next twist. The story of the stones is not unique to the Superstitions.

"WEDNESDAY, NOVEMBER 5, 2008
Spanish Treasure in Arkansas
Have you ever heard of Eden Bluff, Arkansas? Well if you haven’t you might want to look it up.


Back in 1922 a man by the name of Anthony Fenniger from Denver, Colorado “stumbled” across a rock with several carved symbols on it while squirrel hunting in what he called the White River country in Arkansas. According to Mr. Fenniger he found the stone with the carvings “across the river from the bluff”. The stone was partially covered with moss and dirt and he had to clean the rock of to see all of what he termed “hieroglyphics”. Mr. Fenniger said he brought the find to the attention of a “native” who explained to him that the stone was a map to a Spanish treasure worth $2,500,000.


The treasure apparently originated from a group of Spanish settlers arriving in the area only to find hostile Indians. The settlers were able to hide their treasure and mark the location well before being attacked by the Indians and loosing their lives. This treasure is supposedly hidden in a tunnel on the mountainside. I’m not sure why a group of Spanish “settlers” would be hauling around that much gold but that’s what the story calls them.


According to a newspaper account, the Spanish government mounted an expedition to the area in 1900 and made an “extended search” for the treasure but they were unable to find it. If the Spanish government made a search for the treasure this would imply to me that this group of “settlers” weren’t settlers at all. Maybe they came into the area to recover something that had been left behind by the Spanish many years prior and never made the recovery or maybe they were trying to transport the gold to a port so it could be shipped to Spain. The newspaper account says that the “settlers” were in the area with their treasure “more than 150 years ago”. That would make the original story from some time around 1750. This would make me think the “settlers” were probably miners.


After Mr. Fenniger found the stone and heard the stories of the Spanish treasure he went back to Denver and formed a company whose sole purpose was to search for the treasure. Mr. Fenniger was certain that the stone he had found was the “key” to finding the treasure because no one before him had found it. To my knowledge Anthony Fenniger’s company never found the treasure either.


Several other private searches for this treasure have been made over time but no one has reported finding it either. Would you report finding a tunnel full of Spanish gold to anybody? I mean, really?? Especially if the Spanish government had looked for it before? That would probably be one really big can of worms to get into! You’d probably only be able to sit back and watch Uncle Sam and Spain duke it out over who gets to keep it.
Posted by Ron at 6:51 PM
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I will go one step further and say either is the Dr. Thorne Story.

"Normally I would take these kinds of stories with a grain of salt however, another story surfaced later about a doctor in 1850 who was paid for his services with some of this gold. According to this story, a doctor who lived along Brushy Creek on the south side of Pension Mountain was essentially kidnapped by a group of renegade Indians. The Indians blindfolded the good doctor and took him to a cave where he was shown an Indian boy with a broken leg.

After mending the leg on the Indian boy the doctor was taken by the Indians into another room in the cavern system where he was given a handful of gold coins from a large chest filled with gold coins. The doctor reported that “all around him” in this second cavern were chests filled with gold coins, stacks of gold bars, Spanish armor and weapons. The doctor said that there were “several” other rooms in the cave system and the ones he could see all were filled with the same things.

After getting his gold coins the doctor was blindfolded by the Indians and taken back to his house. The doctor spent the rest of his life trying to relocate the cave system and the treasure. Based on how he thought the Indians had taken him to the cave and the time involved the doctor reckoned the caves filled with treasure were probably within a half mile of the Brushy Creek School.

If that isn’t enough treasure for you then you can always look for the gold coins that the doctor was given by the Indians. The story says that the doctor chose not to spend his gold coins but bury them somewhere behind his cabin near a stand of “young trees”. The doctor died never finding the huge Spanish treasure or digging up his own gold coins."

 

[Hal Croves]

Yes, that story is something.

Arkansas, Stone Treasure Maps, Travis, Treasure Chest-Spanish Galleon Stone, Carving, Texas, Peg Leg.

"MONDAY, JUNE 29, 2009
A Spanish Galleon in Arkansas?
Yes, you read correctly. A Spanish galleon in Arkansas. At least that’s what the rumors say.

According to a couple of different sources there was a Spanish Galleon that sailed up the Mississippi River with a load of treasure. Why would a Spanish galleon sail up the Mississippi? One story says that the treasure laden galleon was coming from Peru via Mexico and was trying to escape several French warships in the Gulf of Mexico. Another story says the galleon was trying to take refuge from a large storm in the gulf, presumably a hurricane, so they headed up the mighty Mississip.
Either way, you have a Spanish galleon loaded with gold and silver from Peru and possibly even Mexico floating around in the Mississippi river somewhere in Arkansas. As the stories go, while the Spaniards were hiding on their galleon they heard stories of fabulous silver mines being worked by the Indians to the northwest. Being the greedy *******s that they were the Spanish off loaded their treasure from the galleon onto “river boats” and headed up the Arkansas River. They followed the Arkansas to the point that it joined up with the Mulberry River. In this area the found rich silver and gold mines being worked by the Indians.

Being the ever sensitive individuals that they were, the Spaniards overtook the Indians at their mines and turned them into slaves to continue the mining for the Spaniards. After a time the Spanish got the idea that they had overstayed their welcome and felt it prudent to exit the area rather quickly. In the process they left behind the treasure they had brought with them from the galleon along with all of the new silver and gold that the Indians had mined for them.
Keep in mind that these may be two different stories based on two different locations however they both ended the same, with the Spanish high tailing it out of the area with the Indians hot on their trail. One story says the treasure was placed into one of the mine tunnels and then the opening was sealed. The other story says the treasure was placed into a mine tunnel along with the bodies of several of the Indian slaves and then sealed shut. Both stories get you the same result, a massive treasure of gold and silver sealed in a tunnel somewhere in Arkansas."