24V Infinity Jet submersible gold sucker.... or so I hope

[Timberdoodle]

I agree with idea of a fluid bed in a submersible but I have a lot of reservations about the size and location of the fluid beds in the pic and the ability for fine gold to ever enter the bed. The velocity and turbulence is going to keep fine gold in suspension above the screen and carry a large percentage out. Fine gold simply does not settle as fast as larger gold. I think Reed's mention of a hydraulic classifier like Reggie Gould used would help greatly with this.

I am having a major issue with the 12v bilge pump running at 24v looking at the size of the wire leads to the dredge and the current required.
12v 4700gph bilge pump pulls 16amps
Increasing to 24v will result in the following based on pump affinity laws Pump Affinity laws
Speed of the pump would double and volume would double
PSI would increase 4X
Power required to run at double the speed would increase 8X. This means the .25hp pump is now running at 2hp. (for 24v operation this means a 64amp draw) I verified this by connecting a 12v 1100gph 3 amp pump to 24v and got 12amp draw. (For only 10 seconds, the pump was screaming)
The lead wires in the pic's look like 8-10 gauge and the line losses for running multiple pumps is going to be extensive. I have run single 12v 3700gph pumps on 20ft of cable and needed to use 6 gauge for a single pump drawing 16amps to eliminate all line losses. I don't expect these are truly running at 24v after the line loss.
I'm wondering if the only batteries capable of handling this high amperage discharge/charge are lithium ion.

I am going to try the multiple battery method at some point to run at 12v. I have no confidence in running at a true 24v for these pumps for long periods. Maybe I'll try 18v.

 

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[Timberdoodle]

Actually both dredges were called a bazooka because they resembled the look of a bazooka. The term Bazooka was never in the patents and why Todd opted to call a stream sluice a bazooka after the dredge has always puzzled me. It doesn't look like he every trademarked the name either. Since Reggie had a bazooka looking dredge and Todd didn't continue the bazooka dredge i would have to side with Reggie if Todd was trying to tell him not to use the term bazooka or claimed any right to it.

 

[Clay Diggins]

Yup, they were a different breed. I ran an old 5" Bazooka for a few days that my friend swore by, and to me it was awkward but it worked. We traded dredges and ran side by side. He had never ran a 4" Proline like mine with the 9hp motor and fell in love with all of that power. All of those little hoses looked funny on his but it did work fine, though it weighed a bunch even underwater.... Lol.

So the subdredge moved less material was heavier and had a lower recovery rate? That was my experience too. We eventually used the subdredge without the collection box, adding a much longer hose and assigning newbies to moving sandbars with it. Slow but effective and little chance of the new guy hurting himself. We could see what was under the sandbar after a few days if the newbie could figure out where to put all that sand.

Once again physics raises it's ugly head.

A 4 inch dredge has 38% less volume than a 5 inch dredge. The Proline 4 inch should be less powerful than the 5 inch. Obviously the 5 inch was either severely under powered or there was more back pressure from the collection box.

I'm betting on the back pressure thing. A regular dredge has no back pressure from the sluice. To work even a little bit the subdredge has to have back pressure (higher pressure to create an area of lower pressure compared to the ambient pressure). The back pressure of the box will rise as you add more water pressure. To get any recovery at all the subdredge has to maintain the right pressure for the box. Increasing that flow will just make your pump work harder and lower your recovery rate.

A regular surface dredge has a wide operating range to account for different conditions. The water pressure, flow and sluice angle are all independently adjustable. The subdredge is set up for one set of conditions when it's made. There is no way to effectively increase flow or pressure without lowering your recovery rate (losing gold) or redesigning the recovery box itself. Modifying the box by adding/removing water spin or adding/removing riffles or adding settling traps is the only way to change a subdredge's operating range. In almost all cases those modifications lead to more back pressure, more friction and or reduced recovery ability.

Physics again - if you increase the flow or pressure you have to redesign the box to keep the low pressure collection zone useful. More pressure/flow = poor recovery or a much bigger recovery box. That's why people keep messing with their subdredge collection boxes. In the hopes of improving an inflexible design.

Bilge pumps - do I really need to go there? Bilge pumps are designed for maximum water volume and are complete failures when it comes to pressure. They are designed to empty a hull of water - not hose off your back porch or run a dredge. The more back pressure from the collection box the less volume, always. Electric bilge pumps are not designed to provide flow against back pressure. That's why boat manufacturers locate the bilge discharge port so low on the hull. Less head = more water moved with a bilge pump.

That long hose running to the collection box? That reduces flow and increases back pressure by 20% before you get to the recovery box. That 20% hardly matters when you have a gas motor with horsepower that you can crank up to compensate for the friction. That's not even a possibility with electric bilge pumps.

The 4700 gph bilge pumps being proposed have a manufacturers head figure of 28'. That was calculated by the manufacturer horizontally without friction loss or back pressure in the result. A real world head pressure for that pump into a 2" hose would be closer to 17 foot. We can calculate operating pressure for an unobstructed clean water outlet at 17ft head/2.31= 7.3 psi output. Connect those three pumps outlets together and you would have a unobstructed clean water outlet pressure of - 7.3 psi.

Yep - pump outlets in parallel (feeding the same pipe) may have greater flow but the psi isn't raised at all. You could run the pump outlets in series (each pump feeding the next in line) to raise the psi but the flow would be the same as one pump. That old First Law of Thermodynamics again!

So you've got 7.3 psi going out a 2" outlet into a 6" tube, pushing against several close tubing bends, a length of 20% loss hose and a pressurized collection box. Not a great scenario for a bilge pump.

Let's just throw out the losses from friction and back pressure and calculate just how much horsepower this three bilge pump has when it's pumping full blast with no restrictions - like in a bathtub. We can calculate the horsepower pretty easy. PSI * GPM / 1714 = HP is the formula. So 7.2 psi X 234 gpm/1714 = 0.983 horsepower at the nozzle before actual operating losses.

Those real world losses are going to be around 20% electric transmission loss, 20% friction loss and 30% back pressure against pumping flow loss. Adding in those factors and this three bilge pump dredge will be applying considerably less than 1/2 hp and 7.2 psi to the collection box flow for about the first 18 minutes of the 30 minutes you are going to get per 400 amp hour battery. As the system heats up and the battery drains that hp figure will go down considerably.

A less than 1/2 hp system will never do the work of a 9 hp system, no matter how you hook up the batteries.

If your head hurts from reading all these physical facts and formulas I'll sum it up all in one sentence:

There is no free lunch - not in physics and not at your local Taco Bell.

Heavy Pans

 

[Timberdoodle]

Howard Invented/developed the "Bazooka" dredge in the late '80's and patented in the early mid ninetiesit has been called the Bazooka always...Howards name.

Schmidt gold trap need instructions

The original stream sluice was called the "Black Magic"

https://www.google.com/patents/US5476177

Todd decided to call his stream version the bazooka gold trap. Because of Howards design.

He tried to sell the Dredges no one wanted them (almost no one)

Notice his dredge has a different patent No# than the sluice https://thumbs.worthpoint.com/zoom/...dredge_1_3240e689f394402a5ff53a6b9ad82657.jpg

https://www.losttreasure.com/Home/FieldTestDetail/6123

The dredge has been called the "bazooka" gold trap it's whole life

https://www.google.com/patents/US5366092

The original Bazooka gold trap

Reggie never patented. he was butthurt that he had to compete with Todd. Which is funny cause there never was a competition for sales because there was no real demand for either " Bazooka" dredge.

I believe it was nicknamed the "Bazooka" by miners as mentioned in the article. I don't think Howard used this name as all the nomenclature says " Schmidt gold trap". I have never come across anything yet with Howard calling the dredge a bazooka and when I first got into designing a subbie in 2009 I researched both Howards and Reggie's designs extensively. Granted the nickname Bazooka has long held a strong reference to Howard's dredge.

 

[Timberdoodle]

Clay- Connecting pumps in parallel does increase PSI and is mentioned as point #3 in the link you provided for both series and parallel operation.
My own tests of bilge pumps provided approximately a 25% PSI increase by hooking up 2 pumps either in parallel or series. Not exactly efficient when your doubling the battery load by adding a second pump.
I use a basic formula for determining operational pump sizes and compare that to a jets orifice size requirements. Works well for most all centrifugal pumps when pump curves are not available. Basically just use 60% of the rating for maximum head and flow. For a gas pump this means at full throttle.
I would calculate the ratings of the 4700 pump to have a working PSI of 6.7 (Head 8m=26ft X .6= 15.6ft/2.3) and a working flow at this PSI of 2820GPH or 47GPM.
In Subdredger's post he is claiming that he is running these at double voltage 24v. I think this is not only crazy and dangerous but let's look at the output based on the pump affinity laws I mentioned in the earlier post.
Flow doubles to 94gpm working flow
PSI quadruples to 26.8PSI
More than adequate to run a 3" subbie if a pump was designed to meet these requirements.

But running a bilge pump at this level is dangerous and the current draw (64amps per pump) is likely to burn up the pump, burn up or blow up the batteries, melt wires etc....
The only explanation I can come up with of his claim to using these with no issues is that the feed lines to the batteries are too small and drawing down the voltage to the pumps and he is actually more in the 16-18v range or less which changes all the factors.

Anyone trying to replicate Subdreger's 24v bilge pump design should be very, very, careful.

 

[Reed Lukens]

A 4 inch dredge has 38% less volume than a 5 inch dredge. The Proline 4 inch should be less powerful than the 5 inch. Obviously the 5 inch was either severely under powered or there was more back pressure from the collection box.

Heavy Pans

The stock 4" Proline comes with a 5hp Honda/HP350 pump. Mine is modified, stacked over under, with 9hp/ HP500 that will break your fingers It's not a dredge that you turn a beginner loose with, hehe. It will suck the blood thru your finger tips if you get too close...

 

[DizzyDigger]

Just read this thread through and enjoyed it. Would have been much
more enjoyable without all the negative waves.

..Just sayin'....

 

[Subdredger]

Clay- Connecting pumps in parallel does increase PSI and is mentioned as point #3 in the link you provided for both series and parallel operation.
My own tests of bilge pumps provided approximately a 25% PSI increase by hooking up 2 pumps either in parallel or series. Not exactly efficient when your doubling the battery load by adding a second pump.
I use a basic formula for determining operational pump sizes and compare that to a jets orifice size requirements. Works well for most all centrifugal pumps when pump curves are not available. Basically just use 60% of the rating for maximum head and flow. For a gas pump this means at full throttle.
I would calculate the ratings of the 4700 pump to have a working PSI of 6.7 (Head 8m=26ft X .6= 15.6ft/2.3) and a working flow at this PSI of 2820GPH or 47GPM.
In Subdredger's post he is claiming that he is running these at double voltage 24v. I think this is not only crazy and dangerous but let's look at the output based on the pump affinity laws I mentioned in the earlier post.
Flow doubles to 94gpm working flow
PSI quadruples to 26.8PSI
More than adequate to run a 3" subbie if a pump was designed to meet these requirements.

But running a bilge pump at this level is dangerous and the current draw (64amps per pump) is likely to burn up the pump, burn up or blow up the batteries, melt wires etc....
The only explanation I can come up with of his claim to using these with no issues is that the feed lines to the batteries are too small and drawing down the voltage to the pumps and he is actually more in the 16-18v range or less which changes all the factors.

Anyone trying to replicate Subdreger's 24v bilge pump design should be very, very, careful.

If this is so ,that i am running these at 64 amps at 24v ,please explain to everyone here why the 18 amp fuse in these pumps hasn't blown??

I'm not running from a + to a - OR - TO A +I'm running from a + to a + with one wire.

 

[Subdredger]

If you where in England i would say go do i.

Downunder ,we say ,WHATEVER MATE,or REMOVED.

 

[Subdredger]

That last post was for goldwasher,i will not be posting with REMOVED.

 

[mytimetoshine]

Typical....Dont share any ideas for inovation here or you will be riduculed by the resident crowd. SMH

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

 

[Timberdoodle]

If this is so ,that i am running these at 64 amps at 24v ,please explain to everyone here why the 18 amp fuse in these pumps hasn't blown??

I'm not running from a + to a - OR - TO A +I'm running from a + to a + with one wire.

Ok I just connected a 1100gph pump to the "split-positive" system. 3 12v marine batteries in series for 36v with the positive connected to the positive of the pump and a single 12v marine battery connected to the neg side of the pump with the battery 36v and 12v negatives connected.
I connected a current meter to the 36v inline output to the pump and a voltmeter from the 36v pos to the 12v positive to monitor voltage differential.
Turned on the pump and took the following readings
Amperage started at 9 amps but dropped to 7.5 in 3 seconds and continued to stay steady for about 1 minute (duration of test).
Voltage was 24.5 volts prior to turning on pump. dropped to 21volts once pump turned on slowly reduced as the 12v battery charged and the 36v bank reduced.
Pump was running significantly stronger than running on 12v.

What I deduce from this.
When connecting a pump in this "split positive" configuration the differential voltage is not going to deliver a full 24v so amperage is not the same as connecting across a 24v battery bank to ground. The pump therefore will not deliver 2x the flow.
The pump output will only run based on the differential voltage which changes over time with the charge/discharge of the individual 36v and 12v battery banks.
The current draw will increase/decrease in relation to the differential voltage across the pump.
In this test the current was 9 amps upon start which is 3X the normal current and dropped to 7.5 or 2.5X the normal load.

Subdredger- If you have a 18amp fuse on the 4700gph pump and it is not blowing the fuse then the answer is quite simple. A combination of line losses and differential voltage between the batteries is preventing the actual voltage being delivered across the pump from increasing much more than it's actual operational voltage. You really need to connect a voltmeter across the pump leads while the pump is pulling current to verify. If you measure the voltage with the pump off you will simply read the voltage difference between the battery banks and not get a true operational reading which includes line losses etc.... I also recommend using a current meter in your testing.

Voltage sets the speed of a dc motor and an increase in voltage means an increase of current draw. A system which is current limited will keep the voltage reduced and the pump will not run at the desired speed.

I think everyone has probably experienced something like this when using a long run of extension cords to run a high amperage device like a saw etc.. It either doesn't start or it runs slow or blows fuses.

 

[arizau]

"I will send you over the 4 inch in April 2018 you can use it over your summer,private message me."

I hope Subdredger follows up on the above post he made a few days ago and that Reed will use it and post his honest assessment of the unit.

Signed: I'm not a dredger or an electrical engineer but I am an interested bystander for this subject.

 

[Subdredger]

Or try sharing actual real working Ideas and innovation.

I just commented with an emoji and the name calling started.

Fact is physics and real information dispute and refute the whole thing. People don't get so defensive when they have a solid way to prove and share.

I never said they wouldn't suck material. Just that they aren't going to "out process" the same size running a real motor with a real pump. Both because of the material they will actually move and the usefulness if you are actually dredging a real world deposit.

There are lot's of good ideas that make it to treasurenet that are passed around, praised , studied and enjoyed..

Sub dredges aren't a new idea...battery powered ones either.

You can go on you tube and watch all kinds of videos of how terrible bilge pump dredges really are.

Every time I watch one and the guys like " actually sucks pretty good" I SMH cause I know that guy has never ran a dredge a day in his life.

Here's one where a guy shows how his can't even suck gold out of a crack.



He aslo didn't break into the bed rock like he should in several places. I could go in with just a screw driver and snuffer, fan and use the current and "out process" his two bilge three inch wrestling partner.

Granted he isn't using the magic one wire split positive 24 volt system that sucks the ceiling off of bathrooms in the southern hemisphere.

This how you don't do it

 

[Subdredger]

Ok I just connected a 1100gph pump to the "split-positive" system. 3 12v marine batteries in series for 36v with the positive connected to the positive of the pump and a single 12v marine battery connected to the neg side of the pump with the battery 36v and 12v negatives connected.
I connected a current meter to the 36v inline output to the pump and a voltmeter from the 36v pos to the 12v positive to monitor voltage differential.
Turned on the pump and took the following readings
Amperage started at 9 amps but dropped to 7.5 in 3 seconds and continued to stay steady for about 1 minute (duration of test).
Voltage was 24.5 volts prior to turning on pump. dropped to 21volts once pump turned on slowly reduced as the 12v battery charged and the 36v bank reduced.
Pump was running significantly stronger than running on 12v.

What I deduce from this.
When connecting a pump in this "split positive" configuration the differential voltage is not going to deliver a full 24v so amperage is not the same as connecting across a 24v battery bank to ground. The pump therefore will not deliver 2x the flow.
The pump output will only run based on the differential voltage which changes over time with the charge/discharge of the individual 36v and 12v battery banks.
The current draw will increase/decrease in relation to the differential voltage across the pump.
In this test the current was 9 amps upon start which is 3X the normal current and dropped to 7.5 or 2.5X the normal load.

Subdredger- If you have a 18amp fuse on the 4700gph pump and it is not blowing the fuse then the answer is quite simple. A combination of line losses and differential voltage between the batteries is preventing the actual voltage being delivered across the pump from increasing much more than it's actual operational voltage. You really need to connect a voltmeter across the pump leads while the pump is pulling current to verify. If you measure the voltage with the pump off you will simply read the voltage difference between the battery banks and not get a true operational reading which includes line losses etc.... I also recommend using a current meter in your testing.

Voltage sets the speed of a dc motor and an increase in voltage means an increase of current draw. A system which is current limited will keep the voltage reduced and the pump will not run at the desired speed.

I think everyone has probably experienced something like this when using a long run of extension cords to run a high amperage device like a saw etc.. It either doesn't start or it runs slow or blows fuses.

Great post Timberdoodle.

I think it's great you've taken the time to to run a pump a little different,and try this.

I will tell you here and now how i get rid of amp draw.
I have many ways of doing this both with water and electricity.
With water,its simple all i do is introduced a spin or a vortex going into the intake of the pump,it's like a tornado,or a cone base of cone or vortex in the river going to a point(tapering)right where
the impeller is being the point and then ad another vein straight after the impeller to vortex the water from a point out.

It's like if you run one of these pumps out of the water it spins,really fast,but if you add two vortexes going to a point with water ,right where the impeller is,the pump almost free runs,Amps drop right off.
I'm using the water to my advantage.On start up until water flows amps are high,but as soon as all is going amps drop right off.Schauberger.

The electrical way i have many,but remember ,someone ask me how i do it,so i told them.
It was never what i wanted to talk about here as it would take a very big book for people to get it.And this is about dredges not electricity.

What you say Timberdoodle holds true for the voltage dropping off with this circuit ,its because you are running from a high plus say 36v to a lower plus say 12v.
What is happening is the batteries are trying to equalize and are equalizing,the 36v drops the 12v chargers,You can now see electricity will charge as you do work and until you came along
and tried this you can see it is so.

I have over a hundred different ways of doing this.You have a basic circuit and the other end you have a very complicated circuit.
The circuit started with Tesla,it's called the tesla switch,then bedini had his take on it.

I will try my best here to explain here what i do in a high end circuit,and why i will not post the circuit here or anywhere,but i would be prepared to work online with you timberdoodle to put out a easy
SAFE circuit that people here can use,last thing i want is 6 foot fried salmon on the river bank.Let me know what you think.

The next thing you have to do Timberdoodle is ,you are going from 36v into 12v ,now flip the circuit so the 12v batteries are now 36v and the 36v are now 12v.
I flip this hundreds of times per second,so this right here is why my voltage doesn't drop.
My high end circuit is flipping the positive hundreds of times a second ,then i add a bedini ssg circuit to it.you see bedini has a ssg ciruit and he uses a wheel with magnets on it that spin past a coil,and when the wheel magnets spin past the coil you get a big back voltage spike that also charges your battery.Turn dc off in a coil you get a big spike,back spike,Whats not know is when you turn the power on you get a big forward spike as well.
But the pump has a coil in it yes?
pretty sure the pump has magnets in it as well yeh?
So in the end i'm using the spikes as well to keep the batteries charged.
So in the end this ciruit has capacitors,300v-600v spikes not what inexperienced people need to be concerned about in or near water.
My stage2 dredges all use capacitors with this circuit as i don't need to hold power,(amps)All have capacitors on board, no wires, no batteries.
Ever seen a 6 inch sniper dredge.
My stage three dredges run a different pump,the stage 1 dredge i put out there as you can buy all the parts ,easy,make it cheap,anyone can.But if you are having such trouble with this, the stage three dredge will be far beyond your understanding.
So everyone no more pics,reason being look at the post straight after every time i put a photo out there.
Stage three dredge uses a tesla pump/turbine,look under Nikola tesla patents you will find it.It took me 4 years to get this right,Keene almost have the pump housing correct but if they added another
intake to it opposite the first they would have two vortexes hitting each other ,change the impellers ,as of tesla patent ,this is the ultimate pump.Might take a little to get your head around it.

My trap.Lets say we are talking about a three inch pipe out of the nozzle look at the pic with 4 dredges in it,second dredge from the right is a 3 inch with a simple trap.
water comes out of nozzle and into 3 inch pipe then into a reducer in reverse 3inch reducer to 4 inch in REVERSE.THIS EXPANDS slows the water like a jet flare just before the trap ,like a river going down a gorge into a wide opening.next is a 4 inch t joint with a screw cap on it.dredge all day, undo cap, put pay in pan,pan.
The 4 inch dredge has a different reducer in reverse.All i have done is cut the pipe right above the trap and bend the back down ,so in the end you have the reducer in reverse and then the pipe also acts as a inside bend of a river.Simple .Gold most certainly goes into trap,secret now is keeping it there.
Look at a pic with the nozzle,this is where the water comes from for the trap,Notice the flow switch,it must be tuned,No use driving a un -tuned car,no use using a un-tuned dredge.
The other hose i use to blow crevices or hard pac.
The dredges have way more power than needed,IF YOUR 1 FOOT UNDER OR A HUNDRED,THE POWER IS THE SAME.
If you want to run these old school with one battery just buy a big 48v battery,any battery,put a pwm on it pulse width modulator ,this will give you any voltage you want,high voltage to remove overburden,low voltage to get pay and tune the flow to trap.

 

[Reed Lukens]

Great post Timberdoodle.

I think it's great you've taken the time to to run a pump a little different,and try this.

I will tell you here and now how i get rid of amp draw.
I have many ways of doing this both with water and electricity.
With water,its simple all i do is introduced a spin or a vortex going into the intake of the pump,it's like a tornado,or a cone base of cone or vortex in the river going to a point(tapering)right where
the impeller is being the point and then ad another vein straight after the impeller to vortex the water from a point out.

It's like if you run one of these pumps out of the water it spins,really fast,but if you add two vortexes going to a point with water ,right where the impeller is,the pump almost free runs,Amps drop right off.
I'm using the water to my advantage.On start up until water flows amps are high,but as soon as all is going amps drop right off.Schauberger.

The electrical way i have many,but remember ,someone ask me how i do it,so i told them.
It was never what i wanted to talk about here as it would take a very big book for people to get it.And this is about dredges not electricity.

What you say Timberdoodle holds true for the voltage dropping off with this circuit ,its because you are running from a high plus say 36v to a lower plus say 12v.
What is happening is the batteries are trying to equalize and are equalizing,the 36v drops the 12v chargers,You can now see electricity will charge as you do work and until you came along
and tried this you can see it is so.

I have over a hundred different ways of doing this.You have a basic circuit and the other end you have a very complicated circuit.
The circuit started with Tesla,it's called the tesla switch,then bedini had his take on it.

I will try my best here to explain here what i do in a high end circuit,and why i will not post the circuit here or anywhere,but i would be prepared to work online with you timberdoodle to put out a easy
SAFE circuit that people here can use,last thing i want is 6 foot fried salmon on the river bank.Let me know what you think.

The next thing you have to do Timberdoodle is ,you are going from 36v into 12v ,now flip the circuit so the 12v batteries are now 36v and the 36v are now 12v.
I flip this hundreds of times per second,so this right here is why my voltage doesn't drop.
My high end circuit is flipping the positive hundreds of times a second ,then i add a bedini ssg circuit to it.you see bedini has a ssg ciruit and he uses a wheel with magnets on it that spin past a coil,and when the wheel magnets spin past the coil you get a big back voltage spike that also charges your battery.Turn dc off in a coil you get a big spike,back spike,Whats not know is when you turn the power on you get a big forward spike as well.
But the pump has a coil in it yes?
pretty sure the pump has magnets in it as well yeh?
So in the end i'm using the spikes as well to keep the batteries charged.
So in the end this ciruit has capacitors,300v-600v spikes not what inexperienced people need to be concerned about in or near water.
My stage2 dredges all use capacitors with this circuit as i don't need to hold power,(amps)All have capacitors on board, no wires, no batteries.
Ever seen a 6 inch sniper dredge.
My stage three dredges run a different pump,the stage 1 dredge i put out there as you can buy all the parts ,easy,make it cheap,anyone can.But if you are having such trouble with this, the stage three dredge will be far beyond your understanding.
So everyone no more pics,reason being look at the post straight after every time i put a photo out there.
Stage three dredge uses a tesla pump/turbine,look under Nikola tesla patents you will find it.It took me 4 years to get this right,Keene almost have the pump housing correct but if they added another
intake to it opposite the first they would have two vortexes hitting each other ,change the impellers ,as of tesla patent ,this is the ultimate pump.Might take a little to get your head around it.

My trap.Lets say we are talking about a three inch pipe out of the nozzle look at the pic with 4 dredges in it,second dredge from the right is a 3 inch with a simple trap.
water comes out of nozzle and into 3 inch pipe then into a reducer in reverse 3inch reducer to 4 inch in REVERSE.THIS EXPANDS slows the water like a jet flare just before the trap ,like a river going down a gorge into a wide opening.next is a 4 inch t joint with a screw cap on it.dredge all day, undo cap, put pay in pan,pan.
The 4 inch dredge has a different reducer in reverse.All i have done is cut the pipe right above the trap and bend the back down ,so in the end you have the reducer in reverse and then the pipe also acts as a inside bend of a river.Simple .Gold most certainly goes into trap,secret now is keeping it there.
Look at a pic with the nozzle,this is where the water comes from for the trap,Notice the flow switch,it must be tuned,No use driving a un -tuned car,no use using a un-tuned dredge.
The other hose i use to blow crevices or hard pac.
The dredges have way more power than needed,IF YOUR 1 FOOT UNDER OR A HUNDRED,THE POWER IS THE SAME.
If you want to run these old school with one battery just buy a big 48v battery,any battery,put a pwm on it pulse width modulator ,this will give you any voltage you want,high voltage to remove overburden,low voltage to get pay and tune the flow to trap.

Are you running PWM? MPPT? Or something else on your 4" and larger...
You said,
Keene almost have the pump housing correct but if they added another
intake to it opposite the first they would have two vortexes hitting each other ,change the impellers ,as of tesla patent ,this is the ultimate pump.
Now you're talking about a turbine. I've seen them with up to 8 inputs and that produces tons of power and speed. We have a company here that makes them in our area. Pricey but effective.

 

[Subdredger]

Are you running PWM? Or MPPT? on your 4" and larger...
You said,
Keene almost have the pump housing correct but if they added another
intake to it opposite the first they would have two vortexes hitting each other ,change the impellers ,as of tesla patent ,this is the ultimate pump.
Now you're talking about a turbine. I've seen them with up to 8 inputs and that produces tons of power and speed. We have a company here that makes them in our area. Pricey but effective.

Try find Nikola tesla's patent.
Its what i'm doing to this simple bilge pump but in a different way.
The water going to and from the bilge is like to cones meeting at a point,two tornado's,the point being the impeller,the water once started run's or takes a big part of the load off the pump.
The Keene pump housing only has one intake point,but nature doesn't work this way.
If Keene where to put,add,another intake to the other,equal and opposite side of the housing you would get two intakes hitting each other ,spinning,working together flip the impeller 90 degress with disc's use what i was trying to explain earlier with highs and low's or electrical charges to water and you have a great pump.
Water goes in centre of these disc's via 2 intakes ,direction is critical for the electrical charge of water as you will not pick up negative water,Neg water is acidic or expanding state,Alkaline being contracting positive state or positive forming state,this is the sole reason nobody has understood it.

It works both way's, add water into the centre of the disc's and out the periphery it's a pump.
Add water into the periphery and out the centre of the disc's, it a turbine.

 

[Reed Lukens]

Try find Nikola tesla's patent.
Its what i'm doing to this simple bilge pump but in a different way.
The water going to and from the bilge is like to cones meeting at a point,two tornado's,the point being the impeller,the water once started run's or takes a big part of the load off the pump.
The Keene pump housing only has one intake point,but nature doesn't work this way.
If Keene where to put,add,another intake to the other,equal and opposite side of the housing you would get two intakes hitting each other ,spinning,working together flip the impeller 90 degress with disc's use what i was trying to explain earlier with highs and low's or electrical charges to water and you have a great pump.
Water goes in centre of these disc's via 2 intakes ,direction is critical for the electrical charge of water as you will not pick up negative water,Neg water is acidic or expanding state,Alkaline being contracting positive state or positive forming state,this is the sole reason nobody has understood it.

It works both way's, add water into the centre of the disc's and out the periphery it's a pump.
Add water into the periphery and out the centre of the disc's, it a turbine.

I read about Tesla's patent years ago, then I read that Bedini's ssg was patented here first by I think Roger Anderson in 1974? It's old school technology though compared to what you're doing from what I can see because you're building your own pumps correct? We didn't have the need to run silent or quiet and low key here until recently... At one time we would turn cars into dredges here and nobody thought twice about it. But today times are different, because the environmental movement is doing its best to squash all mining of any kind here... So, run silent/ run deep, is the best way because gasoline motors have been or are being outlawed for gold dredging...

 

[Subdredger]

yes,make my own pumps.

And yes silent/deep.

If you can't hear me,and if you can't see me,then i'm not there am i.

 

[Timberdoodle]

I have so say that the idea of a fluid bed in a submersible is a good idea. I think it's great to see others trying to tackle the problem with subbies especially in fine gold retention. A fluid bed is good because it allows for tuning of the bed separate from the suction/flow and it's hard to control the flow in a over/under design etc.. I am however a skeptic to the ability for fine gold to enter the bed if the flow is not modified in a way to forcefully deliver fine gold out of the fast flow to the collection chamber.

As far as the electrical discussion goes. I starting reading and watching videos about the "split positive system" when I first came across this thread. One guy trying the simple battery "split the positive circuit" resulted in the simple circuit is complete BS. He took readings constantly, made alot of charts etc.. and when he compared the total energy delivered from the split positive circuit until full discharge to the total energy of the three batteries over time the results showed no gain. Upon posting these results the person who initially posted the simple split positive circuit comes back explaining the need of a special wired motor and Bedini circuit.
I'm trying not to be too critical or negative but I have some observations.

1. The simple split positive battery system that was introduced early in this thread to provide 24v is not only wrong in it's application for a bilge pump, but it's very dangerous and people need to know this.
2. Running a bilge pump on a PWM would allow a 12v bilge pump to run off a 24v battery bank and adjust the duty cycle to provide a bit more speed and PSI. I like this idea because it would allow for an increase in PSI greater than the minimal PSI increase gained by parallel pumps. Still going to draw more current though.
3. Running a PWM at 50% duty cycle at 24v is the same total power as the pump running on a single 12v battery. That's why fuse doesn't blow. The pump is not running any stronger or providing 2x the flow output.
4. The Bedini circuit sort of - Simply using the downtime of the PWM duty cycle to use back emf from the spinning pump to charge a battery. Use twice the power and take back half. In reality I haven't seen anyone claim more than 5-10% above COP and they aren't running heavy loads like a bilge pump. EMF braking is not free energy in a bilge pump.
5. Until pump pressure and flow is actually systematically measured and compared to a pumps 12v baseline including the separate testing of adding vanes for spinning the water etc... I hold alot of reservations about the theories presented. A pressure gauge costs $5. How are you quantifying the gains if you never measured the pressure from a pump as you mentioned?

I think I have a pretty good grasp of this stuff if you want to post schematics. I spent 20 years in the electronics industry as both a technician and engineer and have spent the past 8 years building stuff like subbies which run off bilge pumps. This stuff is right up my alley.