200 yrs old? Pirate? Native? Or religious? Any hidden meaning? Treasure map?

[Joecoins]

Hello,
I have something real special,
Purchased at a fleamarket in quebec.
It was literaly tangled with a bunch of stuff and i had to cut some other peices to get it loose from the pile.

I need help finding out its purpose and significance.
Please take a look at the photos ,its worth it!
I included a photo with important notes i have made on the peice.
Thanks in advance.
!!!!New and better photos, Beads page 8, Coins pg9.!!!!!
New photos again! Page 11

 

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[plymouthian12]

I've gotten 10k and 14k out of the water that were black and some that looked like brass till acid testing proved other wise

 

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[plymouthian12]

And it's got a reale attached to it

 

[Joecoins]

And it's got a reale attached to it

Thats awsome! Any photos!?

 

[Customx_12]

Well, you can always try to get tickets to Antiques Roadshow if they'll be in your area (I don't have any idea where you're from as this thread was too long to read all the way through. Maybe you mentioned it but I don't know). Anyway, they have a wide variety of experts that can put their heads together and maybe answer some of your questions about this.

Edit: first post says Quebec. Not sure if that's where you live but I think they do a Canadian tour sometimes.

 

[Joecoins]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Caribbean

Piracy in the Caribbean- wikipedia. - end of an era...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its an interesting piece for sure and Antiques Roadshow is a great idea. I would love to see that and learn. I'm just saying I thought we pretty much eliminated Inca, Colonial, and pirates when the Ecuadorian coin was dated 1833-1836. The coin is extremely worn from years of being in circulation before it was strung on the necklace so that pretty much eliminates the Inca, Colonial and pirate era as we know that the Spanish empire was in severe decline and those countries were no longer colonial. The pirate era in the West Indies was also over when this necklace was assembled and your links support this. We know Ecuadors independence from Spain was in 1822 and Bolivia and Mexicos independence even earlier. So it wasn't assembled in the Spanish colonial period.

I like the trench art idea however I don't see any corrosion from a saltwater environment.. Could the beads have been hand made from brass shells? I suggested to study Incas ancestors. Its a beautiful piece I hope you don't think I'm a hater. I just don't see any reason to believe this is a treasure map or that each bead could represent a ship sunk by a pirate. However the possibility exists that the beads are older than the Ecuadorian coin and were kept in a controlled or dry environment. But with that line of thinking, it could have been assembled by a hippie. So I prefer to date the necklace mid 1800s.

I apologize for the editing. Hard to post on my cel between working and a poor signal.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

n the early 19th century, piracy along the East and Gulf Coasts of North America as well as in the Caribbean increased again. Jean Lafitte was a pirate/privateer operating in the Caribbean and in American waters from his havens in Texas and Louisiana during the 1810s. But the records of the US Navy indicate that hundreds of pirate attacks occurred in American and Caribbean waters between the years of 1820 and 1835. The Latin American Wars of Independence led to widespread use of privateers both by Spain and by the revolutionary governments of Mexico, Colombia, and other newly independent Latin American countries. These privateers were rarely scrupulous about adhering to the terms of their letters of marque even during the Wars of Independence, and continued to plague the Caribbean as outright pirates long after those conflicts ended.

Quoted from wiki pedia

... Notice they say newly independant latin american colonies!
Wikipedia goes on to say american navy was only strong enough to effectively end piracy in 1846!
Boom!

let's say 1846 was the end of the pirate era. We can date the assembly of the necklace by the wear on the Ecuadorian coin. It should be almost.mint condition. Its pretty worn. I don't know if it could have worn this much by 1846. Thats only 10-13 years. Just something to think about. Colonial no. The colonial period was over.. The very end of the pirate era? I dunno. Maybe. Cutting it kinda close. Maybe someone else could comment on how many years it would take to wear a coin this much. I think you said it was a lower silver content meaning that its a harder alloy than pure silver. Unless somehow this one coin was added to the necklace at a later date. But then again the medallian appears very worn as well. Could it have worn when it was a necklace?

This information doesn't make the necklace less appealing. It is what it is. And that's what we are trying to discover here. We may find it was from the American Civil War era as Spanish silver was certainly still in circulation. I wonder how it ended up in Quebec?

 

[Joecoins]

Well just because the last coin is 1833-18
36 doesnt meant its from that date, it could be made of much older peices and the coin added much later in its construction
It is my understanding that the spanish real was one of the most durable silver coins of its time!
I find it very likely that the ecuadorian coin with the lower silver , was mixed with other metals and was infact less! Durable and more prone to wear.
Its likely not pre columbian inca made, but inca descendant made and inca culture influenced,
Wikipedia does infact support me, it say there was 100's of pirates in that time frame. Its even got a list
Also the beads up close on some of them have bubbles , corrosion of some sort?

 

[Joecoins]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piracy_in_the_Caribbean
Heres a list of 19c pirates ive been looking at
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:19th-century_pirates. Good link

 

[Joecoins]

Perhaps - Mansel Alcantra
Mansel Alcantra
Born? flourished. 1829
Spain
Piratical career
Years active 1820s
Rank Captain
Base of operations South Atlantic Ocean
Commands Macrinarian
Mansel Alcantra or Alcantara (fl. 1829) was a Spanish pirate active in the South Atlantic during the early 19th century. As well as committing acts of piracy, he was also responsible for several incidents of mass murder. The most infamous of these acts occurred in 1829 when his brig, the Macrinarian, captured the Liverpool packet ship Topaz near St. Helena while en route from Calcutta to Boston. After he and his men had finished looting the ship, Alcantara had the entire crew murdered.[1]

That same year, he seized and plundered the American ship, the Candace from Marblehead. The ship's supercargo, allegedly an amateur actor, disguised himself as a Roman Catholic priest by dressing himself in a black gown and broad rimmed hat. He waited in his cabin pretending to "tell his beads" and, when the pirates finally entered his cabin, they respectfully crossed themselves and left the room. The young man was the only one of the crew and passengers not robbed by the pirates.[1][2]

I like the story about counting beads,
It is very possible the beadsnrepresent 153 ships, or maybe the pirate took 153 lives!

 

[Joecoins]

peso fuerte (hard peso), and the adulterated coins as
pesos febles (feeble peso).

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Its really simple because we have dated coins and it can't be assembled any earlier than 1833-36 the newest coin. By the end of 1826 the only Spanish colonies in the America's were Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yes the coin could have been added later but then anything on the necklace could have been added later. Thinking like that and it could have been assembled merely 40 years ago depending on the age of the cordage. I hate to think that way. I prefer to think its was made as we see it today. Google silver coin and you will read that pure silver is soft so copper is added to make it harder for circulation. Yes the beads could be much older but that would be kind of a shame if it was assembled by a hobbyist from old materials.

 

[Joecoins]

Its really simple because we have dated coins and it can't be assembled any earlier than 1833-36 the newest coin. By the end of 1826 the only Spanish colonies in the America's were Cuba and Puerto Rico. Yes the coin could have been added later but then anything on the necklace could have been added later. Thinking like that and it could have been assembled merely 40 years ago depending on the age of the cordage. I hate to think that way. I prefer to think its was made as we see it today. Google silver coin and you will read that pure silver is soft so copper is added to make it harder for circulation. Yes the beads could be much older but that would be kind of a shame if it was assembled by a hobbyist from old materials.

Acutal its not just copper used to make it harder but other metals aswell, and indeed the mix used for rhe ,.66 could be softer even with the copper, look more into ill try to get the info
Magnesium made it hard,
I think the name feeble currency speaks for itself,
Im still looking to quote thefacts on this...

 

[Joecoins]

How about assembled by a pirate? With looted treasures? Circa 1840

 

[Salty]

Ok, I am no expert, but I will say I used to collect Native American and South American, such as Mexican and pieces from Peru. Some of the items I had were crude, in a sense a tad bit like this piece. I had a choker that was from Mexico, I wish I still had it I would post a pic of it. The design was similar to this piece, the crude part of it, and some of the design work. I will also mention that Native Americans used to use silver coins to make jewelry. I have some silver "balls" that are stamped with designs that are made from silver dimes. Two dimes were used for each ball. They were flattened, stamped, bent and joined. A family friend used to have amazing western memorabilia, and collected some of the rarest most amazing western, trapper, mountain man and Wild West items you could imagine. He also had pieces that were made from old silver coins. So I am not surprised that your piece has coins, even unaltered. Again, I am no expert, but that's my story, and sure I am sticking to it!

 

[scaupus]

How to get the alloy tested for free.

take it to a coin show. There may be someone there with a handheld spectrum analyzer who can give you the exact alloy composition in just a few seconds, probably for free. That could give a good indication of the age and source of the alloy. Or, call jewelers, pawnshops, metal buyers, until you find someone who has an analyzer. If you wanted to subject one of the beads to a slightly destructive test, you could rub a stone and acid test. A lot of tumbaga , a pre-colombian gold alloy, had fairly high percentages of gold, but sometimes it had very low gold percentages. It was very variable. If 10k acid causes the rub to disappear, but slowly, it could be low percentage tumbaga.

 

[cw0909]

tumbaga, interesting stuff about it

The Treasure Beaches Report Direct From Florida's Treasure Coast.: 10/30/12 Report - Pre Columbian Tumbaga, Benefit Cookout & Sandy Find

 

[oxbowbarefoot]

How about assembled by a pirate? With looted treasures? Circa 1840

That sounds like a stretch. The Golden Age of Piracy was over by the 1730's. There were certainly some Pirates around after that, but they weren't common. It looks to me to be post 1850's based on the wear on the coins. It's probably Victorian Age, but a very cool item!

 

[Joecoins]

Everyone keeps refering to the wear of the coins, we concluded in my other thread, that the ECuador coin could be made with a different alloy and can infact be more prone to wear, much like british 50% silvr coins...
Only the spanish coins are the same durability and the wear seems very much to be consistent with occuring on the necklace, meaning the coin werent in circulation long.... I will take better photos, you will see no scratches and only dents on the rim from. Beign worn not circulated. I will through in a picture of another coin i have from a necklace and you will see the wear that occurs to coins used in jewelry. Those photos will come soon , here is another photo, that i think speaks for itself, concerning an observation i have made, but may not have been clear to everyone else

 

[Joecoins]

Notice how black, coins used in a necklace are,
That morgan was a pendant, in a bezel,