Peerless67
Hero Member
Roadquest said:
17 Tons of gold in New Mexico
- Thread starter Roadquest
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Springfield
Silver Member
This turkey makes no sense. Either a cover story for some other purpose or a scam, IMHO. Of course, I could be wrong.
gollum
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Springfield said:
Hey SF,
You might want to do a little research on this subject before making an embarrassing statement like that (even with your disclaimer).
All the Letters of Negotiation are available through either the National Archives or the Library of Congress.
That's why the Feds have been closely watching the goings on around Farmington, NM since the 1930s, and also why three of the five 66 pound gold ingots giving clues to where the rest is buried, have been recovered several years ago.
Best-Mike
Peerless67
Hero Member
Hi mike,
although its true to say that, the negotiation letters are availiable, and are a matter of record, the 3 gold bars being found is only hearsay. there has been no publicity to that effect.
the paper trail however does not begin and end with the negotiation papers that you talk of there are also some other legal documents, there are also reciepts and logs for fuel.
although its true to say that, the negotiation letters are availiable, and are a matter of record, the 3 gold bars being found is only hearsay. there has been no publicity to that effect.
the paper trail however does not begin and end with the negotiation papers that you talk of there are also some other legal documents, there are also reciepts and logs for fuel.
Springfield
Silver Member
I'll stand firmly by my statement above. The testimony in the archives establishes the legend in the public domain, for whatever purpose it was intended. It doesn't 'prove' anything about this story. All else is whiskey talk.
As far as the three bars are concerned: 1) Has anyone actually seen them? 2) If so, how do you know their true origin? 3) Also if so, exactly why would their owners have shown them to anyone?
Concerning the 'Feds closely watching the goings on around Farmington, NM since the 1930s' - what is there, a permanent '17 Tons of Gold Task Force' on duty there?
Most importantly, if the value of gold was slated to increase from $20.67 to $35/oz, just why would Trabucco et al move all that gold from their control in Mexico to some god-awful remote spot so far out of their control in another country? Why not move it to, say, somewhere near El Paso instead? Better yet, why not keep it under your nose on the ranch? They could sell as much as they wanted whenever they wanted when price increased, maybe not to the US Government, but certainly to private parties who would have (and did) thumb their noses at the ban on holding bullion. Do you guys really think someone capable enough to own 17 tons of gold bullion is going to allow all of it to fly away from them? Something probably happened near Four Corners, but it wasn't this.
As far as the three bars are concerned: 1) Has anyone actually seen them? 2) If so, how do you know their true origin? 3) Also if so, exactly why would their owners have shown them to anyone?
Concerning the 'Feds closely watching the goings on around Farmington, NM since the 1930s' - what is there, a permanent '17 Tons of Gold Task Force' on duty there?
Most importantly, if the value of gold was slated to increase from $20.67 to $35/oz, just why would Trabucco et al move all that gold from their control in Mexico to some god-awful remote spot so far out of their control in another country? Why not move it to, say, somewhere near El Paso instead? Better yet, why not keep it under your nose on the ranch? They could sell as much as they wanted whenever they wanted when price increased, maybe not to the US Government, but certainly to private parties who would have (and did) thumb their noses at the ban on holding bullion. Do you guys really think someone capable enough to own 17 tons of gold bullion is going to allow all of it to fly away from them? Something probably happened near Four Corners, but it wasn't this.
Peerless67
Hero Member
As far as the three bars are concerned: 1) Has anyone actually seen them? 2) If so, how do you know their true origin? 3) Also if so, exactly why would their owners have shown them to anyone?
I personally dont believe in there existance either, and pretty much agree with you on this.
Concerning the 'Feds closely watching the goings on around Farmington, NM since the 1930s' - what is there, a permanent '17 Tons of Gold Task Force' on duty there?
It is a matter of record that they did investigate the area and who knows maybe they still keep an ear to the ground there. but generally i think this is kinda like the people who say if you go out to the dessert out that way go armed be prepared for a fire fight blah blah blah. yes its probably got some danger involved but show me the evidence of dailey shootings and murders out there and il agree to agree. but i believe its to keep others at bay
Most importantly, if the value of gold was slated to increase from $20.67 to $35/oz, just why would Trabucco et al move all that gold from their control in Mexico to some god-awful remote spot so far out of their control in another country? Why not move it to, say, somewhere near El Paso instead? Better yet, why not keep it under your nose on the ranch? They could sell as much as they wanted whenever they wanted when price increased, maybe not to the US Government, but certainly to private parties who would have (and did) thumb their noses at the ban on holding bullion. Do you guys really think someone capable enough to own 17 tons of gold bullion is going to allow all of it to fly away from them? Something probably happened near Four Corners, but it wasn't this.
these people were smuggling gold for a long time into europe and asia, it was ilegal to move gold out of the country, they could not just load 17 tons of gold onto a truck and drive it through the boarder. they picked a remote area for obvious reasons. they bought into america because they planned to clean up when the price of gold was hiked to support the dollar, unfortunately they did not plan on the policy that was passed reguarding individual holdings of gold.
my personal belief is that after the death of his comrades Trabuco did move the gold on probably at a far reduced rate than he was expecting, but since the others were all dead he never lost anything even at a 3rd the spot for gold at the time. basically I believe he had them over, all this talk of gold bar maps burried at random around the mesa on the ranch makes no sense, and the caretaker moving it in the 50s but still doing nothing with it after the death of trabuca makes even less sense. but im all ears as to any evidence that supports or substatiates the claims that there are infact gold bar maps and that 3 have been recovered
I personally dont believe in there existance either, and pretty much agree with you on this.
Concerning the 'Feds closely watching the goings on around Farmington, NM since the 1930s' - what is there, a permanent '17 Tons of Gold Task Force' on duty there?
It is a matter of record that they did investigate the area and who knows maybe they still keep an ear to the ground there. but generally i think this is kinda like the people who say if you go out to the dessert out that way go armed be prepared for a fire fight blah blah blah. yes its probably got some danger involved but show me the evidence of dailey shootings and murders out there and il agree to agree. but i believe its to keep others at bay
Most importantly, if the value of gold was slated to increase from $20.67 to $35/oz, just why would Trabucco et al move all that gold from their control in Mexico to some god-awful remote spot so far out of their control in another country? Why not move it to, say, somewhere near El Paso instead? Better yet, why not keep it under your nose on the ranch? They could sell as much as they wanted whenever they wanted when price increased, maybe not to the US Government, but certainly to private parties who would have (and did) thumb their noses at the ban on holding bullion. Do you guys really think someone capable enough to own 17 tons of gold bullion is going to allow all of it to fly away from them? Something probably happened near Four Corners, but it wasn't this.
these people were smuggling gold for a long time into europe and asia, it was ilegal to move gold out of the country, they could not just load 17 tons of gold onto a truck and drive it through the boarder. they picked a remote area for obvious reasons. they bought into america because they planned to clean up when the price of gold was hiked to support the dollar, unfortunately they did not plan on the policy that was passed reguarding individual holdings of gold.
my personal belief is that after the death of his comrades Trabuco did move the gold on probably at a far reduced rate than he was expecting, but since the others were all dead he never lost anything even at a 3rd the spot for gold at the time. basically I believe he had them over, all this talk of gold bar maps burried at random around the mesa on the ranch makes no sense, and the caretaker moving it in the 50s but still doing nothing with it after the death of trabuca makes even less sense. but im all ears as to any evidence that supports or substatiates the claims that there are infact gold bar maps and that 3 have been recovered
Peerless67
Hero Member
I forgot to mention that I have checked 8,866,786 records on file at the national archives for any evidence that Lt William C Elliott of the US army air corps from salt lake city Utah was shot down and killed over Germany in 1943. I continue to search and will post anything I find.
gollum
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Peerless67 said:
Peerless,
First of all, you will most likely not find any information on a Lt. William C. Elliot that was shot down over Germany (you may, but he was not the pilot that flew the gold into the United States). The people I know had tracked down the pilot, and had spoken with him years ago.
Here is my earlier statement on the subject:
About my evidence for the Feds being involved, I have also stated previously, that I don't believe they are taking an active role in looking for the gold, but have every government employee in the area with an ear to the ground. I say this for two reasons. First, one of the group of men actively looking for the gold, moved to the Farmington Area years ago, so he could search full time, said he had been approached by government people and asked about the gold. Secondly, Do you REALLY believe that the United States Government, knowing for certain, that a fabulous hoard of gold 100% exists, and is hidden somewhere in NM, would not want to know everything that is going on in the area?
That question and statement is from a person who has never had to try and sell gold "under the table" (especially in large amounts). First of all, it's not like the gold is easy to move. It took several months to fly it all into the US (in approximately 1500 pound loads each flight), so as to avoid attracting attention.
Next, let's talk about selling the gold off. Farmington is not exactly Southern California (not a lot of very wealthy people there). From 1933 until the late 1970s (when it became legal again to own more than 5 oz. of gold privately), ANY appreciable amount of gold being sold would have attracted government attention (whether it was in Farmington, NM or Phoenix, Az). Attention from ANYBODY would be the death knell for the cache. Even today, if I were to sell more than say a few ounces, it would attract attention. If they tried to sell the gold "under the table", who would they sell it to? Your statement:
Let's say right now (in 2007) that you lived in Farmington, NM. (population about 45,000). You found the cache yourself. Maybe you could tell me who you would sell it to? EVERYBODY in the area knows about the story (just like they have since 1933). If you sold ONE OUNCE of gold anywhere near Farmington, you would have a convoy of locals following you every time you left your house. Typically, people who don't have a lot of money, don't know people with a lot of money (Sorry, that's just the way Demographics work). They may have an acquaintance that is wealthy, but how well could they trust that person? Small communities are like gossip columnists. Word would get around about your gold in a heartbeat.
Maybe you could sell it outside the area? That way none of the locals would find out. Do you think they wouldn't notice the new car? New Boat? Other new toys you would buy with the money? You do know that any time you purchase anything with cash or a single check that has a price of over $10,000, the selling agency (store, car dealership, boat dealer, etc) is required to file a form to send to the US Treasury Dept stating where you got the cash from. It was originally used to catch drug dealers paying cash for cars, boats, houses, and the like. So now, the government is alerted to you buying that new Pickup Truck with cash. The Treasury WILL investigate to see whether whatever job you claimed to have on your "Customer Information Form" (better known as the credit application), would allow you to have that much cash available. If not (or if you give a bogus job description), they will hand over your case to the Secret Service or the FBI (depending on what they found in their investigation). As of this moment, you can count on losing everything!
So, where are you going to sell your gold? How are you going to spend your newfound fortune? You see, once the Mexicans had the gold flown into the country, they could have had it flown back out, that is, until they let the US Government know it was already here! Once it was in the US and buried, they had no options to sell it or take it anywhere. They knew this, and that is why it was never sold off.
So, the only option for the Mexicans was this.........slowly move it back to Mexico. Could they have done this? Certainly not in any large amounts. Don't you think that locals would have noticed a stranger coming and going over and over to the same places? Don't you think the locals watch outsiders like hawks?
The caretaker was not a wealthy man. He was quite poor actually. He lived on the ranch for free, and had a stroke one day. He died without being able to tell his family where the gold was buried. It is still there! I say this confidently, mainly because of the fact that the family of the caretaker is one of the main groups trying to find the gold.
Mike
gollum
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One other little thing I forgot to mention:
HOW are you going to sell the gold? You would have ingots that weigh about 60 pounds each. First, you would have to find someone with a LOT of cash. But then, would they believe that the bar was really gold? Don't you think they would want to see an assay? Where are you going to have the gold assayed, that they wouldn't report it to the government (as they must by law). Would an assayer risk going to jail for you? Not likely.
Just one ingot (if you sold it cheap at $500 per ounce) would sell for $480,000. Do you personally know someone you can ABSOLUTELY trust to keep a secret that has half a million dollars to spare? I know quite a few, but I live in Southern California and sell Mercedes for a living. And of those few that have the cash, there is maybe one that I would trust to keep a secret.
Are you going to hold it in a vice and melt it into a bucket of cold water, and claim you found float gold? Nuggets? When you have it assayed, it will not match anything coming out of the region (now you will have LOTS of attention for an as yet unknown vein). You would get a 24kt assay. No nuggets (not even NorCal Mother Load Nuggets are 24kt). The only feasible way to do it this way, is to get an assay of known float gold from the area, and melt in the correct proportions of copper, silver, platinum, lead, or whatever metals are naturally alloyed into native NM Gold nuggets.
Not so easy is it?
Mike
HOW are you going to sell the gold? You would have ingots that weigh about 60 pounds each. First, you would have to find someone with a LOT of cash. But then, would they believe that the bar was really gold? Don't you think they would want to see an assay? Where are you going to have the gold assayed, that they wouldn't report it to the government (as they must by law). Would an assayer risk going to jail for you? Not likely.
Just one ingot (if you sold it cheap at $500 per ounce) would sell for $480,000. Do you personally know someone you can ABSOLUTELY trust to keep a secret that has half a million dollars to spare? I know quite a few, but I live in Southern California and sell Mercedes for a living. And of those few that have the cash, there is maybe one that I would trust to keep a secret.
Are you going to hold it in a vice and melt it into a bucket of cold water, and claim you found float gold? Nuggets? When you have it assayed, it will not match anything coming out of the region (now you will have LOTS of attention for an as yet unknown vein). You would get a 24kt assay. No nuggets (not even NorCal Mother Load Nuggets are 24kt). The only feasible way to do it this way, is to get an assay of known float gold from the area, and melt in the correct proportions of copper, silver, platinum, lead, or whatever metals are naturally alloyed into native NM Gold nuggets.
Not so easy is it?
Mike
Peerless67
Hero Member
for the most part i agree mike, but it would be possible to get rid of that gold today, granted it would be no easy task but it happens.
else where on this forum you can find a story about a guy who dug a cache of gold coins, and by all accounts it was no small cache, he even had a crooked attorney helping him.
else where you will hear someone advise "grind the gold down and file a placer claim". from what i understand if the gold is there it is approx 16 tons in weight. would you need 16 tons? 2 bars at todays spot is worth over 1 million US dollars. a fit man could walk out of town with 2 bars in a ruck sack and no one need be any the wiser.
personally I would involve the kind of people who made those quotes elsewhere and take whatever was possible i reckon we are talking in excess of 700million dollars worth off gold, how much does anyone need?
and what if the caretakers family do find it? what is their master plan for its disposal ? after all there are many options
else where on this forum you can find a story about a guy who dug a cache of gold coins, and by all accounts it was no small cache, he even had a crooked attorney helping him.
else where you will hear someone advise "grind the gold down and file a placer claim". from what i understand if the gold is there it is approx 16 tons in weight. would you need 16 tons? 2 bars at todays spot is worth over 1 million US dollars. a fit man could walk out of town with 2 bars in a ruck sack and no one need be any the wiser.
personally I would involve the kind of people who made those quotes elsewhere and take whatever was possible i reckon we are talking in excess of 700million dollars worth off gold, how much does anyone need?
and what if the caretakers family do find it? what is their master plan for its disposal ? after all there are many options
cactusjumper
Gold Member
I have a question:
What would happen if you crushed local ore.....sans gold, and mixed it with melted gold? What would stop you from making ingots with the results, and saying you took it out of a local mine, which you buy, pretending you hit a new.....rich vein? Do the Fed's move in and demand an assay as soon as every new vein is found? Do they ever ask for such an assay?
Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me on these questions.
Joe Ribaudo
What would happen if you crushed local ore.....sans gold, and mixed it with melted gold? What would stop you from making ingots with the results, and saying you took it out of a local mine, which you buy, pretending you hit a new.....rich vein? Do the Fed's move in and demand an assay as soon as every new vein is found? Do they ever ask for such an assay?
Thanks to anyone who can enlighten me on these questions.
Joe Ribaudo
Peerless67
Hero Member
cactusjumper said:
truthfully joe i have no idea, but if anyone is gonna try and convince me that every gold dealer in the states is a saint then they can hold their breath cos i aint buying it
Peerless67
Hero Member
with reguard to the pilot Gollum, my investigation was not to prove he was the pilot that moved the gold, infact my purpose was to prove the opposite to myself. thus that would leave the door open for the possibility that the pilot is still alive today. he would not know where the gold was but he would know where he landed that plane and how much gold he moved.
It just struck me as odd that anyone would have thrown a titbit out there that was so easily checked, with no real regaurd to a cover story
It just struck me as odd that anyone would have thrown a titbit out there that was so easily checked, with no real regaurd to a cover story
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Mike,
I had a home at Vallecito Lake, which was about 2 hours from Farmington, for many years. I worked both power houses down there and spent a bit of time in the area.
There are people with a great deal of money living in Farmington, Aztec and Durango......just to name a few places.
I prospected, including dredging, all over that area. Have no reason to doubt your story, but that's a lot of gold. After awhile, it gets very, very hard, to keep that kind of thing quiet. That's why it's being discussed here.
For that kind of wealth, the government will stop at nothing to acquire it.
I know nothing about this story and so I have nothing to add. Just curious since I used to live there.
Take care,
Joe
I had a home at Vallecito Lake, which was about 2 hours from Farmington, for many years. I worked both power houses down there and spent a bit of time in the area.
There are people with a great deal of money living in Farmington, Aztec and Durango......just to name a few places.
I prospected, including dredging, all over that area. Have no reason to doubt your story, but that's a lot of gold. After awhile, it gets very, very hard, to keep that kind of thing quiet. That's why it's being discussed here.
For that kind of wealth, the government will stop at nothing to acquire it.
I know nothing about this story and so I have nothing to add. Just curious since I used to live there.
Take care,
Joe
gollum
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cactusjumper said:
No Joe,
Feds won't just "move in". There are certain "flags" that get raised when things come into the open. If you all of a sudden came into a rich vein. You would definitely have the "ore" assayed. That's the only way you could sell it. The assayer is required by law to keep copies of the assays on record, I believe they also send their monthly assays to the feds. That way the feds know who to look at closer for tax purposes. In these days of drug running, meth labs, and such, drug dealers are becoming ever more inventive in the ways they try and launder their money. Think the feds don't understand this concept? Do you think that your asssay wouldn't (at some point in time or another) get compared to other assays from the area?
Talk about unwanted attention! What if there are NO major gold finds in the history of that area? You would start a gold rush to Farmington, NM. Don't you think that James Marshall and John Sutter would have preferred keeping the gold they found in their lumber mill a secret in 1848?
Do you honestly believe that if you suddenly came into a mysterious rich vein of gold, that the assayer would not want in on it for keeping a secret? Or would he tell his friends/family about your find, and you would be followed whenever you left home. Maybe get a bullet in the back of the head one night?
Not that easy Joe.
Best-Mike
gollum
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cactusjumper said:
Hey Joe,
Here's one of the better retellings of the story:
http://www.treasurehuntersuniversity.com/tons.html
Best,
Mike
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Peerless,
Ernie Provence was involved in a number of schemes to sell gold to "buyers". I don't believe any of the sales actually took place, but I do know that a few meetings were held in some local hotels.
It's my personal opinion that my scenerio took place, not too long ago, with ore from the LDM. Any proof should be long since gone and in the pockets of the finders. Can't help but believe there are still some fine, high grade samples setting on a few desks and mantels.
Anyone know if the crushed ore mixed with melted gold theory holds any water
?
Joe
Ernie Provence was involved in a number of schemes to sell gold to "buyers". I don't believe any of the sales actually took place, but I do know that a few meetings were held in some local hotels.
It's my personal opinion that my scenerio took place, not too long ago, with ore from the LDM. Any proof should be long since gone and in the pockets of the finders. Can't help but believe there are still some fine, high grade samples setting on a few desks and mantels.
Anyone know if the crushed ore mixed with melted gold theory holds any water
?Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Mike,
I take that to mean that an existing gold mine......no gold left, could be purchased, the ore crushed and mixed with the gold bars you have, and presented as said new vein. The new ingots would need to be assayed before sale, and if anyone was interested, show the footprint of the new mine.
New vein pinched out......this is all we have to show. Any law that you must assay before converting your gold to ingots? Haven't sold any gold yet, just converting it to convenient, easily moveable form.
Seems plausible, not that I ever tried it, but plausible.
Thanks,
Joe
I take that to mean that an existing gold mine......no gold left, could be purchased, the ore crushed and mixed with the gold bars you have, and presented as said new vein. The new ingots would need to be assayed before sale, and if anyone was interested, show the footprint of the new mine.
New vein pinched out......this is all we have to show. Any law that you must assay before converting your gold to ingots? Haven't sold any gold yet, just converting it to convenient, easily moveable form.
Seems plausible, not that I ever tried it, but plausible.
Thanks,
Joe
Peerless67
Hero Member
the mere fact so many are looking for it tells me there are ways to get rid of it, a working class guy like me would be happy to walk away with 5 million from the 700million odd thats there.
I wonder if the finder is entitled to keep it anyway, seems theres no one to claim it now anyways. im sure the US authourities would be happy to pay 10 million for the location
I wonder if the finder is entitled to keep it anyway, seems theres no one to claim it now anyways. im sure the US authourities would be happy to pay 10 million for the location
Last I heard , was that Mr. Elliott was living in SLC , Utah and that was years ago
You guys ever hear of "Refiners" ? , send them your Ore , they refine it , keep a percent for themselves , send you a check for the balance , along with a 1099 at the end of the year for the monies paid to you for your "Ore" , you have to be carefull which one you use though as some have no business morals and will rip you off
MB
You guys ever hear of "Refiners" ? , send them your Ore , they refine it , keep a percent for themselves , send you a check for the balance , along with a 1099 at the end of the year for the monies paid to you for your "Ore" , you have to be carefull which one you use though as some have no business morals and will rip you off
MB
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