allenroyboy
Jr. Member
That's pretty much my take on it. AllenOroblanco said:
17 Tons of gold in New Mexico
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Peerless67
Hero Member
allenroyboy said:
Seems we are all pretty much agreed on the gold probably not being moved from its original burial place.
Just that some have a different original location than others, generally that location would probably be dependent on whom you think was the original source.
Since it is my belief that the vast majority of searchers have concerntrated their efforts in the 4 corners area, and I must say thrown some pretty impressive search techniques into locating it. I have to wonder with so many having been looking there, if the gold has already been found, or if not, why it has not been found.
Gary
Oroblanco
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Peerless wrote
I am NO expert in this but...(always some stuff to follow a "but") I suspect the key reason why so many searchers have concentrated on the Four corners area is that was the true site where the gold was originally buried. They could all be wrong (has happened with other lost treasures) BUT usually the reason why so many hunt the same area is that was the correct area to start with.
As for why no one has yet found it, a good excuse is the sheer vastness of the four corners area. This part of the southwest is particularly sprawling and 'vast' with settlements few and far between, almost like an American Rub al Qhali ("empty quarter"). This is the area where many western movies were filmed, "Monument Valley" and "Valley of the Gods" and an area NOT known for much in the way of gold or silver veins, so burying a treasure here would be fairly 'safe' from the chance discovery by some wayward prospector.
(Monument Valley)
(Valley of the Gods, near Mexican Hat)
as much of the region is ALSO within Indian reservations, (Navajo, Zuni, Ute etc) it is also "safe" from anyone making a homestead or desert entry and thus accidentally discovering the treasure. If I were one of those men, I would think this to be a superb area to hide a large amount of gold and not have much to worry about. I can't think of a better area, where no prospectors, homesteaders, or military would likely stumble on my treasure.
Oroblanco
I am NO expert in this but...(always some stuff to follow a "but") I suspect the key reason why so many searchers have concentrated on the Four corners area is that was the true site where the gold was originally buried. They could all be wrong (has happened with other lost treasures) BUT usually the reason why so many hunt the same area is that was the correct area to start with.
As for why no one has yet found it, a good excuse is the sheer vastness of the four corners area. This part of the southwest is particularly sprawling and 'vast' with settlements few and far between, almost like an American Rub al Qhali ("empty quarter"). This is the area where many western movies were filmed, "Monument Valley" and "Valley of the Gods" and an area NOT known for much in the way of gold or silver veins, so burying a treasure here would be fairly 'safe' from the chance discovery by some wayward prospector.
(Monument Valley)
(Valley of the Gods, near Mexican Hat)
as much of the region is ALSO within Indian reservations, (Navajo, Zuni, Ute etc) it is also "safe" from anyone making a homestead or desert entry and thus accidentally discovering the treasure. If I were one of those men, I would think this to be a superb area to hide a large amount of gold and not have much to worry about. I can't think of a better area, where no prospectors, homesteaders, or military would likely stumble on my treasure.
Oroblanco
Peerless67
Hero Member
Oro,
Just a few what-ifs here. What if an American treasure hunter located some mexican gold, lets say in the late 30s. What if he enlisted the help of someone from New Mexico, lets say a shady guy, to help him secrete it in the USA. What if that helper does a few stupid things and gets himself shot, lets say in 1949, lets say he was trying to sell gold.
What if the original finder then approaches some Californians he knows to help in the selling.
What if the Californian group want their investment turned around fast.
What if they come up with a story about a Mexican owner and try to avoid penaltys by claiming it was bought into the states prior to 1934.
What if they offer it for sale to the US government, lets say in 1950 and again in 1951, lets say that does not go well and leads to a secret service investigation and a Grand Jury hearing.
What if these relatively elderly men are shrewd enough to know they will be watched like hawks following that hearing, lets say with little choice left they decide to do as you suggest and pretend to be mining it.
Of course thats just a load of what ifs, none of the above could have taken place, could it
I do agree the 4 corners area would be a great place to bury a treasure, would that have been the only remote place in New Mexico in the 30s ?
Gary
Just a few what-ifs here. What if an American treasure hunter located some mexican gold, lets say in the late 30s. What if he enlisted the help of someone from New Mexico, lets say a shady guy, to help him secrete it in the USA. What if that helper does a few stupid things and gets himself shot, lets say in 1949, lets say he was trying to sell gold.
What if the original finder then approaches some Californians he knows to help in the selling.
What if the Californian group want their investment turned around fast.
What if they come up with a story about a Mexican owner and try to avoid penaltys by claiming it was bought into the states prior to 1934.
What if they offer it for sale to the US government, lets say in 1950 and again in 1951, lets say that does not go well and leads to a secret service investigation and a Grand Jury hearing.
What if these relatively elderly men are shrewd enough to know they will be watched like hawks following that hearing, lets say with little choice left they decide to do as you suggest and pretend to be mining it.
Of course thats just a load of what ifs, none of the above could have taken place, could it
I do agree the 4 corners area would be a great place to bury a treasure, would that have been the only remote place in New Mexico in the 30s ?
Gary
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Gary,
OK.....I was a little off on the money thingie. It was not $250,000,000 but $20,000,000. When it comes to treasure stories, these numbers get a life of their own.
"Later, in 1952, Secret Service Agents knocked on the door of his Van Nuys home. It seems, the agents told Holmdahl, there was a rumor that someone had smuggled $20,000,000 in gold ingots across the Mexican border, and Holmdah was the chief suspect." p. 194 of "Soldier of Fortune" by, Douglas V. Meed.
That's still a lot of gold ingots.
Take care,
Joe
OK.....I was a little off on the money thingie. It was not $250,000,000 but $20,000,000. When it comes to treasure stories, these numbers get a life of their own.
"Later, in 1952, Secret Service Agents knocked on the door of his Van Nuys home. It seems, the agents told Holmdahl, there was a rumor that someone had smuggled $20,000,000 in gold ingots across the Mexican border, and Holmdah was the chief suspect." p. 194 of "Soldier of Fortune" by, Douglas V. Meed.
That's still a lot of gold ingots.
Take care,
Joe
Peerless67
Hero Member
Joe, I am a little dyslexic, sometimes I see whole words or sentences that dont exist, I also reguarly mess up with numbers.
You do have to wonder how Holmdahls name was bought into the whole thing, but then again the secret service were supposedly investigating the story since 1949. Was there any event that took place in 1949 where Holmdahl may have been linked to a gold hoard, maybe in New Mexico Maybe just another coincidence, seems to be a lot of them in the story.
You are right about those ingots, 17.7 tons makes a nice pile.
Gary
You do have to wonder how Holmdahls name was bought into the whole thing, but then again the secret service were supposedly investigating the story since 1949. Was there any event that took place in 1949 where Holmdahl may have been linked to a gold hoard, maybe in New Mexico
Maybe just another coincidence, seems to be a lot of them in the story.You are right about those ingots, 17.7 tons makes a nice pile.
Gary
Oroblanco
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Gary - that scenario is perfectly reasonable, and there are bits of info that do appear to support it. My problem with the owners being Americans is that it is so simple for anyone to just file a mining claim, and then be able to sell the gold as "output" of your "mine". This has been done, but if the owners were in fact not Americans but Mexicans, with no intention of becoming citizens, then they would have to come up with a way to pull a deal - which looks remarkably like the events. It was a relatively simple thing to sell gold from your "mine" to the US Mint, though any marks would have to be removed, it may have been a surprise to receive quite so much gold at one time but not so odd as to cause an investigation. EDIT - No investigation IF the gold were not delivered all in one lump shipment of course!
Roy
Roy
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Gary,
When you get right down to it, we are all a little......dyslexic. If you happen to be a "genius" at the same time, it's got to be a hell of a load to carry around.
Holmdahl was in Mexico, off and on, throughout those years and right into the fifties. In 1952, same year the Secret Service came to call, the Mexican Government held some ceremonies which put him in the news. Wonder if that's what put a target on his back.
Take care,
Joe
When you get right down to it, we are all a little......dyslexic. If you happen to be a "genius" at the same time, it's got to be a hell of a load to carry around.
Holmdahl was in Mexico, off and on, throughout those years and right into the fifties. In 1952, same year the Secret Service came to call, the Mexican Government held some ceremonies which put him in the news. Wonder if that's what put a target on his back.
Take care,
Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Roy,
"My problem with the owners being Americans is that it is so simple for anyone to just file a mining claim, and then be able to sell the gold as "output" of your "mine". This has been done, but if the owners were in fact not Americans but Mexicans, with no intention of becoming citizens, then they would have to come up with a way to pull a deal - which looks remarkably like the events."
I believe that is exactly what is being done today........with gold that may have come from the LDM. If your ore is from the same general area, I don't see how it could be detected.
If you are set up to refine your own ore, I can see where you could easily take ingots of high purity gold and, melting it down, give it (add in) the provenance you need.
Ted DeGrazia worked in gold, and would have had no problem establishing a larger operation. He was from Morenci, which is where Holmdahl had a good friend working as a banker. Morenci was not exactly a huge city.
Ted is likely part of the creation of the Stone Maps, if not the person who actually carved them. Those Stone Maps show the location of Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars. The first person to write the story of Harry's cave, was Bob Ward. Bob Ward was a very good friend of Ted DeGrazia, and was said to have been with him when he burned/buried his paintings.
Ted searched the Superstition Mountains with a friend who claimed he rode with Pancho Villa. (Documented) Holmdahl was closely involved with Pancho Villa and Mexican gold. (Documented) He also spent many years searching for gold ingots, buried during the time of the revolution in Mexico, (Documented) and was suspected of being involved in smuggling gold ingots into the U.S., from Mexico, also documented.
There are many people who would buy this kind and this much gold........outside the law, by necessity.
As you can see, there is a very nice circumstantial circle being created here.
Take care,
Joe
"My problem with the owners being Americans is that it is so simple for anyone to just file a mining claim, and then be able to sell the gold as "output" of your "mine". This has been done, but if the owners were in fact not Americans but Mexicans, with no intention of becoming citizens, then they would have to come up with a way to pull a deal - which looks remarkably like the events."
I believe that is exactly what is being done today........with gold that may have come from the LDM. If your ore is from the same general area, I don't see how it could be detected.
If you are set up to refine your own ore, I can see where you could easily take ingots of high purity gold and, melting it down, give it (add in) the provenance you need.
Ted DeGrazia worked in gold, and would have had no problem establishing a larger operation. He was from Morenci, which is where Holmdahl had a good friend working as a banker. Morenci was not exactly a huge city.
Ted is likely part of the creation of the Stone Maps, if not the person who actually carved them. Those Stone Maps show the location of Harry LaFrance's cave of gold bars. The first person to write the story of Harry's cave, was Bob Ward. Bob Ward was a very good friend of Ted DeGrazia, and was said to have been with him when he burned/buried his paintings.
Ted searched the Superstition Mountains with a friend who claimed he rode with Pancho Villa. (Documented) Holmdahl was closely involved with Pancho Villa and Mexican gold. (Documented) He also spent many years searching for gold ingots, buried during the time of the revolution in Mexico, (Documented) and was suspected of being involved in smuggling gold ingots into the U.S., from Mexico, also documented.
There are many people who would buy this kind and this much gold........outside the law, by necessity.
As you can see, there is a very nice circumstantial circle being created here.
Take care,
Joe
Peerless67
Hero Member
Did Indians have any interest in gold in the 1930s ?
Gary
Gary
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Roadquest
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I was wondering if Holmdahl may have had dual citizenship. Both American and Mexican
I worked with the thought of one area in New Mexico for about 14 years. Them it don on me to
take off my tunnel vision glass's. Step back and take another look. Around 2002 I started thinking
that, not only would it be a bad idea to bury all that gold in one spot. I call it putting all your eggs in
one basket. Also, If it was me, I would have a back up site to bury it at. Just in case something came
up to prevent using the first chosen one.
I have two site's that are separate by about 60 miles. That are of interest to me. I have been in the Four
Corners area, and have search in that area, there's evidence of people searching and digging in many
differant places. Some have dug large holes. And just left them there. I have not seen anything to suggest
that anyone found anything. But, I'm not an expert, they very well could have found it. And if they did, and
they are smart. None of us that are searching for it is going to know it. And we will continue looking.
Clayton
I worked with the thought of one area in New Mexico for about 14 years. Them it don on me to
take off my tunnel vision glass's. Step back and take another look. Around 2002 I started thinking
that, not only would it be a bad idea to bury all that gold in one spot. I call it putting all your eggs in
one basket. Also, If it was me, I would have a back up site to bury it at. Just in case something came
up to prevent using the first chosen one.
I have two site's that are separate by about 60 miles. That are of interest to me. I have been in the Four
Corners area, and have search in that area, there's evidence of people searching and digging in many
differant places. Some have dug large holes. And just left them there. I have not seen anything to suggest
that anyone found anything. But, I'm not an expert, they very well could have found it. And if they did, and
they are smart. None of us that are searching for it is going to know it. And we will continue looking.
Clayton
Peerless67
Hero Member
Clayton, Holmdahl was made a member of the Legion of Honor and recieved the honorary rank of Colonel by the mexican government in 1952, thats what Joe was refering to above. I do not believe he had a dual nationality, but he certainly had some high ranking friends in Mexico. He also had ties to mining and oil prospecting companys who he would work for in Mexico. Aswell as having business relationships with Mexican companys.
Take a look at the final 2 chapters of the soldier of fortune book, they make interesting reading.
Gary
Take a look at the final 2 chapters of the soldier of fortune book, they make interesting reading.
Gary
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Gary,
"Did Indians have any interest in gold in the 1930s ?"
In one way or another, the Indians have always had an "interest" in gold. It was said that Cochise had a gold mine that he showed to Tom Jeffords. Cochise's son was supposed to have worked it.
If you believe it, there is the story of Nino Cochise's gold mine. There are many stories of Indians using gold in the past.
Take care,
Joe
"Did Indians have any interest in gold in the 1930s ?"
In one way or another, the Indians have always had an "interest" in gold. It was said that Cochise had a gold mine that he showed to Tom Jeffords. Cochise's son was supposed to have worked it.
If you believe it, there is the story of Nino Cochise's gold mine. There are many stories of Indians using gold in the past.
Take care,
Joe
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Gary,
"Take a look at the final 2 chapters of the soldier of fortune book, they make interesting reading."
They certainly do, but I found the entire book interesting. I reread those last two chapters last night.
Take care,
Joe
"Take a look at the final 2 chapters of the soldier of fortune book, they make interesting reading."
They certainly do, but I found the entire book interesting. I reread those last two chapters last night.
Take care,
Joe
Peerless67
Hero Member
Joe, thats kind of what I figured, which makes me wonder why given that the 17 tons story and the Apache Jim story (well they are one and the same with a different take) Tell us about an old Ute woman who watched the plane come and go in 1933. Then the Apache Jim story goes into even more detail about the Mexicans who flew in to the desert several times and buried the cargo, and some of the men who helped bury it.
Then we have the glyphs, if they were genuine then someone must have seen what was going on. Then we have the story told in great detail how the gold was bought in by plane and the gold was buried in the foundation or floor of a hogan. We have all the Mexican names and great detail about what happened out in the 4 corners area.
But strangely treasure hunters do not turn up out there until after 1952 looking for Trabucos gold, I mean surely with all these Indians witnessing the plane landing and the burial it must have become local folk law or knowledge.
Perhaps no one learned of the 4 corners link until 1952, but that seems like an incredible amount of time for those stories to be left untold. Maybe that old Ute woman was happy living in that shack and perhaps Apache Jim had no use for gold after all he must have earned a vast fortune as a sheep hearder.
And what about placing that gold on those Indian reservations, why would those Indians not dig it up ? after all its on their land, surely they were rubbing their hands together with glee seeing all that gold buried on their land.
Maybe im just out of the loop and people were searching for Trabucos gold prior to the 50s, but I would think we would have learned of such searchers by now.
I just cant help feeling that if Apache Jim or the old Ute woman would have conveyed those stories to "their people" that there would have been some among them who would have recovered that gold. Or even the person(s) who created the glyphs. Did the Indians and Mexicans even care for each other ?
Its all very confusing.
Gary
Then we have the glyphs, if they were genuine then someone must have seen what was going on. Then we have the story told in great detail how the gold was bought in by plane and the gold was buried in the foundation or floor of a hogan. We have all the Mexican names and great detail about what happened out in the 4 corners area.
But strangely treasure hunters do not turn up out there until after 1952 looking for Trabucos gold, I mean surely with all these Indians witnessing the plane landing and the burial it must have become local folk law or knowledge.
Perhaps no one learned of the 4 corners link until 1952, but that seems like an incredible amount of time for those stories to be left untold. Maybe that old Ute woman was happy living in that shack and perhaps Apache Jim had no use for gold after all he must have earned a vast fortune as a sheep hearder.
And what about placing that gold on those Indian reservations, why would those Indians not dig it up ? after all its on their land, surely they were rubbing their hands together with glee seeing all that gold buried on their land.
Maybe im just out of the loop and people were searching for Trabucos gold prior to the 50s, but I would think we would have learned of such searchers by now.
I just cant help feeling that if Apache Jim or the old Ute woman would have conveyed those stories to "their people" that there would have been some among them who would have recovered that gold. Or even the person(s) who created the glyphs. Did the Indians and Mexicans even care for each other ?
Its all very confusing.
GaryPeerless67
Hero Member
Clayton, I was wondering more about the monetary value rather than that of the arts and crafts value.
Gary
GaryPeerless67
Hero Member
Joe, my reference to the Holmdahl book was to peak Claytons curiosity. The first time I saw Holmdahls name was in the 1952 article in the LATimes, prior to that I had never heard of him at all.
Armed with his name I set out to learn all I could about him, I do not believe I have ever read about anyone quite like him. I have often looked at that photo of him sitting outside his home as an elderly man and wishing it was possible to sit there by his side, he must surely of had some amazing tales to tell.
His name never appears in any of the 17 tons stories, which after reading about his life left me puzzled. I have articles that show he was actively looking for treasure in Mexico, and when you consider the people and links he had in that country it does kind of leave you wondering why. My own research into Holmdahl has left me feeling that if I had to go out on a limb and offer up a name for the source of the gold being offered for sale in 1950, his would be at the top of the list. He truely is someone worth reading about.
If I could just sit on that wall in Van Nuys...................
Gary
Armed with his name I set out to learn all I could about him, I do not believe I have ever read about anyone quite like him. I have often looked at that photo of him sitting outside his home as an elderly man and wishing it was possible to sit there by his side, he must surely of had some amazing tales to tell.
His name never appears in any of the 17 tons stories, which after reading about his life left me puzzled. I have articles that show he was actively looking for treasure in Mexico, and when you consider the people and links he had in that country it does kind of leave you wondering why. My own research into Holmdahl has left me feeling that if I had to go out on a limb and offer up a name for the source of the gold being offered for sale in 1950, his would be at the top of the list. He truely is someone worth reading about.
If I could just sit on that wall in Van Nuys...................
Gary
OP
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Roadquest
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Gary,
There are also stories about the Indians trading gold for rifles. So I would
say yes. They had an interest in gold.
I am by nature a curious person. If it relates to this gold. It probably will get
my attention.
I also like to gamble. and enjoy a good game of poker
Gary, by your responce to Roy and Allen earlier, about the gold being moved from
the first place it was buried. Doe's this mean you have changed your mind
about it being moved in the early 50's ?
Clayton
There are also stories about the Indians trading gold for rifles. So I would
say yes. They had an interest in gold.
I am by nature a curious person. If it relates to this gold. It probably will get
my attention.
I also like to gamble. and enjoy a good game of poker
Gary, by your responce to Roy and Allen earlier, about the gold being moved from
the first place it was buried. Doe's this mean you have changed your mind
about it being moved in the early 50's ?
Clayton
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Oroblanco said:
Hey,
I've said it before, and this is the last time I'll mention it. The original hiding place is known to more than a few people. The depressions are still visible from where it was dug up in 1952.
If it were where it was originally hidden, it would have been recovered a long time ago. As the Ranch Caretaker died without passing on the new location, it is still lost.
You are all welcome to believe what you will, but those of you who know me, know I don't lie or BS. I would not say it if it weren't true.
It was flown in during 1933. It was hidden on a ranch close by to where the plane landed. The caretaker of the ranch was also the caretaker of the gold. In 1952, he moved the gold from its' original hiding place to a place somewhere to the South. After that, I have no idea. If I did, I would be a wealthy man right now, because no private property or government agents could prevent me from getting to it.
Best-Mike
Peerless67
Hero Member
Quote Clayton: "Gary, by your responce to Roy and Allen earlier, about the gold being moved from
the first place it was buried. Doe's this mean you have changed your mind
about it being moved in the early 50's ?"
Clayton, I have never changed my mind, as I have never made my mind up completely. I have pretty much made my mind up about the 1950s site (the one that concerns Hougen and co).
However I have, as I have stated several times, more than one theory of how that gold came to be in their possesion. I tend to lean toward the one which involves Holmdahl as the original finder.
Something else I have mentioned before is that if evidence of the link between the Californian group and "Trabuco" should ever arise then that may swing my belief. I have also said I do not believe that will happen.
In all honesty if there was gold delivered to the 4 corners area in 1933 it is likely to be a different cache to the one being offered for sale by the Californians, but some how along the way the two stories were intermingled.
I think you will agree with me that everything post 1950 is well documented. The problem with associating anything prior to that with the story is no proof exists that the two are connected. As stated before there is circumstantial evidence that supports my theory, whereas there is none that I know of to support that the gold came from Trabuco as an original source.
I can show several documented links between Mexico, Wealthy Mexicans, Villa, Holmdahl, Noss, Hougen and co.
I can not however show a link between the 1950s group and the Mexicans mentioned in the 17 tons printed stories. I can not even find a circumstantial link (excluding the printed stories)
Who knows, today could be the day one of my theories gets turned on its head.
Gary
the first place it was buried. Doe's this mean you have changed your mind
about it being moved in the early 50's ?"
Clayton, I have never changed my mind, as I have never made my mind up completely. I have pretty much made my mind up about the 1950s site (the one that concerns Hougen and co).
However I have, as I have stated several times, more than one theory of how that gold came to be in their possesion. I tend to lean toward the one which involves Holmdahl as the original finder.
Something else I have mentioned before is that if evidence of the link between the Californian group and "Trabuco" should ever arise then that may swing my belief. I have also said I do not believe that will happen.
In all honesty if there was gold delivered to the 4 corners area in 1933 it is likely to be a different cache to the one being offered for sale by the Californians, but some how along the way the two stories were intermingled.
I think you will agree with me that everything post 1950 is well documented. The problem with associating anything prior to that with the story is no proof exists that the two are connected. As stated before there is circumstantial evidence that supports my theory, whereas there is none that I know of to support that the gold came from Trabuco as an original source.
I can show several documented links between Mexico, Wealthy Mexicans, Villa, Holmdahl, Noss, Hougen and co.
I can not however show a link between the 1950s group and the Mexicans mentioned in the 17 tons printed stories. I can not even find a circumstantial link (excluding the printed stories)
Who knows, today could be the day one of my theories gets turned on its head.
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