17 Tons of gold in New Mexico

[allenroyboy]

why would anyone hide gold in the middle of the navajo [Rez]?

If I remember correctly, the Navajo Reservation was not as extensive in the 1930's as it is today. Also, if you want to get into the middle of no-where--that is about as no-where as you can get!
Allen

 

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[Roadquest]

Bill, I have now read all of Penfields accounts, it is my own personal belief that his account is nothing more than a reprint of the few facts that were known. I give little credibility to his 4 corners statement, as he only expresses it as his own belief after interviewing the principle players.
In his accounts he gives several locations, southwestern united states, northwestern new mexico. He does mention the 4 corners area, and he claims that when that location was put to McEachen he replied "thats probably pretty close" he uses terms like "this writer believes" and "we will go along with the northwestern new mexico location"

Also worth a mention is that although the original book has been reprinted several times since 1954 the first time 4 corners actually appears in print is in the 1981 version.
Remember in 1981 there was no one left to argue that point, so how much credibility can be attributed ?

I still am not convinced that the 4 corners area of NM plays any part in this story, as I have said before I could be proven wrong in the next post, but I doubt it.

Gary

Gary,

I am convinced it is not in the "4 corners" of New Mexico also. I'm also convinced it's not in Calif.
Or the little mentioned state of Colorado. But, my only problem is. I can't prove it's not.

Clayton

 

[Roadquest]

why would anyone hide gold in the middle of the navajo [Rez]?

If I remember correctly, the Navajo Reservation was not as extensive in the 1930's as it is today. Also, if you want to get into the middle of no-where--that is about as no-where as you can get!
Allen

Allen, sounds like you've been out there. It's yet in the middle of no-where
once you get out in there.

Clayton

 

[Roadquest]

There's quite a bit of information on how the gold was transported to the "first" place
it was buried.
But, there seems to be little on how it was transported to Calif. from there.

In fact, the only person that I have seen mentioned involved with moving the gold
was a Caretaker or some such person.

That seems like a big job for just one person. If we are so sure that this gold was moved.
to Calif. or a differant part of New Mexico, or maybe Colorado. If we know it was moved,
and have that fact, It would seen there would be some knowledge of what was used to
move it.

Clayton

 

[cactusjumper]

pip,

"navajo is roughly translated into "raiders that farm"...know for traveling long distance just to steal what they could. historic fact...."

That's an interesting "historic fact". Can you tell us your source, or the language that information is "translated" from?

I have a number of sources which all state (pretty much) the following:

[Some anthropologists believe that the Navajo (and the Apache) reached the Southwest during the thirteenth century, but the majority are of the opinion that it was probably a century or two later. At any rate, by about 1600 the Navajo were well established in the Four Corners area, for the most part in what is now New Mexico. The Spanish colonists referred to them as Apaches de NabaJo. The term Nabajo (that is, Navajo) probably came from a Tewa word referring to a valley with cultivated fields. The name that the Navajo themselves use is Dine, meaning "the people." By the time the Spaniards encountered the Navajo and Apache, they were considered two separate peoples.]

"Native Americans of the Southwest: The Serious Traveler's Introduction to People and Places" Zdenek Salzmann and Joy Salzmann, Authors.

There is plenty of confusion as to the origin of the name....."Navajo". I will be the first to admit that my own education concerning the Native Americans of the Southwest is woefully inadequate, which makes each new fact a fresh adventure. If you would prefer to keep your source private, I understand.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Peerless67]

There's quite a bit of information on how the gold was transported to the "first" place
it was buried.
But, there seems to be little on how it was transported to Calif. from there.

In fact, the only person that I have seen mentioned involved with moving the gold
was a Caretaker or some such person.

That seems like a big job for just one person. If we are so sure that this gold was moved.
to Calif. or a differant part of New Mexico, or maybe Colorado. If we know it was moved,
and have that fact, It would seen there would be some knowledge of what was used to
move it.

Clayton

Clayton, I do not think you will find evidence of the gold being moved to Colorado, or California. What makes you think those 2 locations might be possible movement locations ?

 

[Roadquest]

Well, looking at it from a logical point of view. With all the key players
from Calif. The Hearings being held in Calif.
And the escrow being set up in Calif.
If they were going to move the gold from New Mexico. To another location
I believe it could be assumable, They would move it to Calif.

I know that south is the accepted direction that a part of the gold is said to
have been moved in.
Giving the distance it is thought to have been move. It could have be taken
across the state line into Colorado.
I have one piece of information on a cave in Colorado. That I will check out after my
search is compleated at my project area.

I guess I'm just hard headed. But, moved or not moved. The part of "Trabucos" gold
that I am looking for would probably be in New Mexico. And the Four Corners would
not be an area I would be interested in at this time.

Clayton

 

[Peerless67]

Clayton, your logic in the first 5 lines of your post makes sense to me.

However you should also consider that although all these guys were Californians, and the escrow was set up in California etc etc etc .That the logic becomes a little unlogical when you start to add in the 4 corners area of NM, simply because these guys were supposed to deliver the gold to the Sanfrancisco mint.
Why do that ? surely there must be closer mints ? or even large cities with government facilities ?

Gary

 

[Oroblanco]

The next "close" mint would be the Denver mint, not sure about the distance from where the gold was buried since I don't know where exactly the gold was buried, but the other mint (Carson City) was closed by this time.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I have only dropped in on this topic occasionally, so I don't really know all of the details that have been discussed.

"The people approached to sell it were from Ca, the deliveries were aranged for a Ca mint, all the players were from Ca, the pilots were from Ca. They all lived a stones throw apart, at least 4 of them were involved in mining/gold transactions at one time or another."

I did not notice private mints mentioned anywhere. It seems to me that the mints mentioned, might ask too many questions.

Am I way out in left field here?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Hi Joe - no at least not from my view, you are not in left field. Like you I am following this thread, don't have a 'horse in the race'. I would think that bringing in such a large amount of gold to any federal mint would sure raise questions. I wonder why they didn't simply find some old played-out gold mine, pretend to start mining it and then turn in the gold to the mint and thus be paid without even raising an eyebrow? Just theorizing of course.
Roy

 

[allenroyboy]

Allen, sounds like you've been out there. It's yet in the middle of no-where
once you get out in there.

I have family in Farmington. Been through 4 corners a few times. Allen

 

[Peerless67]

Oro, you are of course correct they were closer mints to the four corners area. So considering that the negotiations with the government were for the gold to be delivered on 2 occasions to the SanFrancisco mint, does the whole 4 corners thing make any sense ?

Joe, a ball will sometimes be caught even out in left field, nothing wrong with thinking outside the box. I believe the private mints you speak of were used after the 1952 hearings, but on a small scale. I have no evidence of those transactions taking place, but I have a witness testimony that makes me believe that Hougen was at least moving gold ingots in the 50s, one at a time. Given the amount of publicity following the 52 hearings it would make sense to move a little at a time in the fashion you suggest. 30 kilograms = 964.5 troy ounces at $35.25 = $33,998.62
By my reckoning a man could have lived like a king during the 50s with an income like that.

To put such a figure into perspective

In 1950 a new house cost $8,450.00 and by 1959 was $12,400.00

In 1950 the average income per year was $3,210.00 and by 1959 was $5,010.00

In 1950 a gallon of gas was 18 cents and by 1959 was 25 cents

In 1950 the average cost of new car was $1,510.00 and by 1959 was $2,200.00

Hmm what to do with such disposable income

Gary

 

[Roadquest]

Clayton, your logic in the first 5 lines of your post makes sense to me.

However you should also consider that although all these guys were Californians, and the escrow was set up in California etc etc etc .That the logic becomes a little unlogical when you start to add in the 4 corners area of NM, simply because these guys were supposed to deliver the gold to the Sanfrancisco mint.
Why do that ? surely there must be closer mints ? or even large cities with government facilities ?

Gary

Gary,

The preception of what makes sense to anyone, would be up to the person reading it. I would think.
Maybe some of the other things I said on post 641 will make sense to some other people.

Lets have a giving. That all the connections were in Calif. So the effort was made to process the gold with
the government in Calif. If they knew they were going to try and complete their transaction with the gold,
in Calif. From the beginning. Why would they bury it in New Mexico to began with? ( assuming it was buried
in New Mexico ) .

While plains were made to fly, truck or transport in some way the gold to the United States. Why would these
intelligent men not take the gold to the state they were going to be dealing in. To make the transaction smother,
and avoid any delays, that they possibly could. If a deal could be struck with the government.

Clayton

 

[Roadquest]

Hi Joe - no at least not from my view, you are not in left field. Like you I am following this thread, don't have a 'horse in the race'. I would think that bringing in such a large amount of gold to any federal mint would sure raise questions. I wonder why they didn't simply find some old played-out gold mine, pretend to start mining it and then turn in the gold to the mint and thus be paid without even raising an eyebrow? Just theorizing of course.
Roy

Hi Joe - no at least not from my view, you are not in left field. Like you I am following this thread, don't have a 'horse in the race'. I would think that bringing in such a large amount of gold to any federal mint would sure raise questions. I wonder why they didn't simply find some old played-out gold mine, pretend to start mining it and then turn in the gold to the mint and thus be paid without even raising an eyebrow? Just theorizing of course.
Roy

Roy, They were looking for a quick turnover. Gold and greed. Can sometimes
interferer with a mans reasonable thinking.

Clayton

 

[Peerless67]

Clayton "The preception of what makes sense to anyone, would be up to the person reading it. I would think.
Maybe some of the other things I said on post 641 will make sense to some other people."


Of course you are right, thats why my reply was " your logic in the first 5 lines of your post MAKES SENSE TO ME".

 

[Peerless67]

Quote Clayton: "While plains were made to fly, truck or transport in some way the gold to the United States. Why would these
intelligent men not take the gold to the state they were going to be dealing in. To make the transaction smother,
and avoid any delays, that they possibly could. If a deal could be struck with the government."


Clayton, those transportation plans were probably out of the hands of those who tried to negotiate with the government.
Without any evidence of those involved in the negotiations having moved the gold, it is reasonable to assume it was already in the States, where people may differ greatly in their beliefs, is just how and when it got there.
Some believe it was a guy named Trabuco who bought it in, during the early 30s. My personal favourite is that Holmdahl was involved in it being bought into the States at a slightly later date.
In the absence of any proof of either, I choose to lean toward the one with the most circumstantial evidence.

Gary

 

[cactusjumper]

Gary,

"My personal favourite is that Holmdahl was involved in it being bought into the States at a slightly later date."

Being away from home right now, I can't cite the source, but believe there is a story of Holmdahl being picked up and questioned by the FBI. As I remember, it concerned gold bars being smuggled out of Mexico into the US. For some reason, $250,000,000 seems to be the figure I remember.

Holmdahl was suspected of being involved, but I believe the entire investigation was dropped by the FBI.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Peerless67]

Joe, there are several sources for that quote post 1952. Probably the two that stand out are the L A Times article on 18th of September 1952 which mentions Holmdahl was questioned. But more importantly the interviews carried out by the secret service contain details of that interview with Holmdahl, for some reason Villas name appears as a possible source for the gold.
But that said, there are several more articles, both in newspapers and books that mention Holmdahl having been questioned prior to the Grand jury hearings.
I'm not sure about the 250 million but that could possibly be a writer using the gold price at a later date, for example the gold would be worth approx 3/4 of a billion today.

Gary

The 1952 LATimes article and a 1967 Albuquerque Tribune article, there is also the soldier of fortune article and a few others.

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,
Roadquest wrote

Roy, They were looking for a quick turnover. Gold and greed. Can sometimes
interferer with a mans reasonable thinking.

Clayton

You know when I first heard this story, I thought it to be one of the most UN-believable treasure stories making the circuit. Only after 'digging' into it a bit did I change my mind. The fact that the owners of the gold did NOT simply file a mining claim somewhere and pretend to be mining it, really points to NON-American citizens as the owners, so the Mexican origins might just be true. If they really were Californians or any other American origins, there was no reason to go through this whole scenario. The fact that you have to be an American citizen to file a mining claim (or have signed a statement that you intend to become one) could be an explanation for why this scheme went the way it did.

My OPINION about the various stories of the gold being moved is that while possible, I would hesitate to accept any of them. Why should the owners bother to move the gold at all? Unless there were some urgent reason to move it, it was just as safe in the original spot. Besides, moving a large amount of gold entails huge risks of discovery, from such a simple but unforeseen thing as breaking down on a highway or getting into an accident, or someone seeing the gold and turning them in etc. So far I haven't seen anything to convince me that gold was moved an inch after it was buried.
Roy ~ Oroblanco