1550 Gold Esqudo?

[cuzcosquirrel]

File down the side of one coin, file down the side of another coin. Stick the two halves back together. Seems like a lot of work but I have considered this type of thing to make thinner cast coin copies.

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Sealing edges to guard against visual scrutiny wouldn't be that hard. A little localized heat from a precision torch and light blow from some kind of impact tool would probably forge weld the surfaces together without having to otherwise weld, braze, or solder - although these techniques might prove successful as well.

If someone was willing to take this much time it is hard to believe they didn't find any easier way to cheat the system. Might as well counterfit the whole coin with this much work. Even the indians knew how to perform lost wax casting.

Stan

With this method the original faces are still intact but the bulk of the gold has been removed and filled with cheap lead. I think it would have been profitable to counterfeit this way and easier to pass off as real. I would think a contemporary counterfeit made this way would still have nice value today to a collector.

I dont understand why this clipped escudo was not filled with lead to add bulk and weight?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Guys like Bigcypress enjoy trying to look like an expert and tell you that your little treasure is garbage! Take your coins to individuals who actually know what their talking about. Bigcypress is far from the expert he thinks he is.

How do you know lol? Yes, you are correct, I am not an expert. I do not know and I do not claim to know the answer. I suggested he ask Sedwick.

Maybe you can explain, Paddler. Fact: This escudo is, without any doubt, thinner than a dime. Sedwick (expert) said it was clipped. I only want to know how can you clip 2/3 of the weight from the inside of a coin. Some good theories have been presented. Im here to learn and share, not to put down other members.

I think its a very interesting coin. But it is different (super thin) and I think that is why he was able to buy it so cheap at the auction. I think Seville coins are generally thinner than those from the colonies. How much thinner, I dont kmow. I am very curious as to how much has been clipped from this coin and how.

BTW Welcome to Treasurenet.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Bigcypress, why don't you go and read your own past posts where you play this same silly game with other people like your the expert and slowly claim there coin is a fake over a series of posts. If you are such the expert, I am sure that you will share right now your expert credentials on cobs. If you don't share your credentials, you are not worthy of critique.

You are the one playing a silly game and I dont know why. My guess is that your reading comprehension is very poor. I already told you I am not an expert. If I thought it was fake, I would come right out and say so.

The face of the coin appears authentic.

Im trying to get an intelligent conversation going to learn. Since when does someone have to show their credentials to give an opinion here or ask a question?

What is your opinion on this coin? Or did you join TN just to criticize others? (you dont need to show credentials)

I think you need to go back and read post # 1. Ill copy and paste it here for you.

"Would like anyone to tell me if its real or not. I had it tested for gold content. It tested for at least 18 kt. The jeweler could only test for up to 18 kt. but believes it to be better. Would appreciate any info." quote Messick81.

 

[divewrecks]

If you are such the expert, I am sure that you will share right now your expert credentials on cobs. If you don't share your credentials, you are not worthy of critique.

What would be considered "worthy" credentials? I know I have learned a lot from this forum in the last few years and a lot of it came from listening to varying opinions of others. If I don't agree with a particular post I will usually perform as much research as possible to prove to myself that I am either right or wrong before I make a challenge. I think if you read all of Big C's posts on all of the thread topics here you will find plenty of humble statements by him saying that he doesn't profess to be an expert.

I think that Dan Sedwick will agree that there is no such thing as an "expert" when it comes to cob coins. Some people are just more experienced than others.

Stan

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Im trying to learn. I have no credentials and I suppose, Paddler, you are entitled to your opinion. But it sounds more like a personal attack on myself, than an opinion. I think you should have researched a bit before posting.

The more I learn about cobs, the more I realize I have yet to learn. I would like to learn why this coin is so thin. My research tells me that this coin should weigh much more. I think Zephyr's theory fits. Any other theories should be welcome. If Messick doesnt like the answers he gets, he can pull the thread.

Believe it or not, this forum is a great place to get an ID. Keep in mind that all we are looking at is a picture.

Maybe I ask the tough questions but I think getting to the truth is of utmost importance.

 

[divewrecks]

I have not been following this particular thread too closely, but it just occured to me that this could be a 1 escudo planchet struck using a 2 reale die set. Errors of this type are certainly not unheard of, but would surely be more likely in a colonial mint rather than at Seville.

Stan

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Does this help any?

just had the coin measured [cert. scales] dia. 22.13mm thickness 0.81mm

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

It weighed 2.2 grams.

 

[divewrecks]

In the new world mints at least, I don't think there was a prescribed planchet diameter and thickness as long as the weight was right. Ideally, the planchet would be large enough to pick up the full die imprint (including legends) like a "royal" or presentation piece. This made for a pretty thin coin, especially in lower denominations.

If I recall right there are some known examples of 8 reale strikes on 4 reale planchets recovered from the 1715 fleet.

Stan

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Between 1516 and 1772, the standard weight for a 1/2 escudo was 1.6141 grams; for the 1-escudo: 3.2282 grams. Your piece is 39% overweight for a 1/2 escudo and 31% underweight for a 1-escudo. The stardard gold fineness for either coin is 22k (0.917). IMO, the diameter gives me less concern than the weight and fineness.
Don....

Source: http://www.worldwide-numismatics.com/gold content 5.htm

I have not been following this particular thread too closely, but it just occured to me that this could be a 1 escudo planchet struck using a 2 reale die set. Errors of this type are certainly not unheard of, but would surely be more likely in a colonial mint rather than at Seville.

Stan

I think I follow. It is still underweight but not as bad.

Where are the markings for 2 Reale?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I know little about gold Escudos. Here it is side by side with a smaller diameter 1 Escudo. I resized and rotated. I always stated that it looked authentic as far as I know. I just cannot understand the severe weight difference.

If this is a 2 real die, are you saying it could have been struck on a thin oversized but proper weight 1 escudo planchet and then also cropped at a later date? Sounds like a good theory. But is this a 2 Reale die?

 

[Messick81]

sorry for all the trouble guys but i have had a couple of deaths in the family and have been busy. as soon as i can i will contact sedwick and send it to him for his opinion. i will let every one know what i find out. i realy do apreciate all the input thanks again

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If you are such the expert, I am sure that you will share right now your expert credentials on cobs. If you don't share your credentials, you are not worthy of critique.

Its the combined effort that makes TN successful.

Everybody knows something.
Nobody knows much.
We're all in this together.

 

[divewrecks]

Sorry, I was at work when I posted earlier and couldn't read back through the whole thread. I thought we had established it was a 2 reale strike, but I guess not. Oh well, it is allways a possibility to consider when evaluating a significantly overweight or underweight coin.

Most of my cob library is colonial mints, but I'll get some looking done this weekend. In the mean time, you can compare to these two Seville 1 escudo coins towards the bottom of this Sedwick coins page. I don't think anyone has mentioned these yet:

http://www.sedwickcoins.com/gold_cobs.htm

Stan

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Sorry, I was at work when I posted earlier and couldn't read back through the whole thread. I thought we had established it was a 2 reale strike, but I guess not. Oh well, it is allways a possibility to consider when evaluating a significantly overweight or underweight coin.

Most of my cob library is colonial mints, but I'll get some looking done this weekend. In the mean time, you can compare to these two Seville 1 escudo coins towards the bottom of this Sedwick coins page. I don't think anyone has mentioned these yet:

http://www.sedwickcoins.com/gold_cobs.htm

Stan

Im not sure how we came to that conclusion. I think the diameter of the die imprint is too large for a 1 escudo.

Thanks for the link. I see that Sedwick says that the Seville "Gothic P to the left, S to the right" One Escudos are typically thin and round. They sell for about $900 and up. I wish it said the exact weight and diameter, this could be solved.


This may be your coin.

 

[Fla-Gal]

IIIIIKES- what is with this attitude ? Re-read the "Rules".
Anyone who has been at this site knows how much there is to be learned and enjoyed and shared.
Each day is too precious....go find something fun to do !!!
And leave the good guys alone.

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Big C, I'm no expert but like you I think It doesn't look right. If the coin is from the same time period and from the same mint
( Seville ) the die does not match? ( compared to Sedwicks coin )
Big C you keep on asking Questions that's how we all learn !
Sam

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I think if you read all of Big C's posts on all of the thread topics here you will find plenty of humble statements by him saying that he doesn't profess to be an expert.

IIIIIKES- what is with this attitude ? Re-read the "Rules".
Anyone who has been at this site knows how much there is to be learned and enjoyed and shared.
Each day is too precious....go find something fun to do !!!
And leave the good guys alone.

Big C you keep on asking Questions that's how we all learn !
Sam

Thanks everyone. I appreciate it.



Paddler, if I came off as acting like a "know it all", I didnt mean to.

I deleted my last post. It looks as if yours are also gone.

I notice you are also from South Florida, Paddler. I felt a little uncomfortable like you were stalking me. Hope to meet you someday and we can laugh it off. I am not really trying to make enemies here.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Something I noticed. The doohickey (circled) that represents a colony, I think, on the bottom of the shield is facing a different direction as compared to Sedwicks.

The writing on the rim doesnt line up. The "o"(arrow) is not directly below the centerline. (dotted line)

The lions tail appears a little different.
The bottom feet of the [size=13pt]A[/size]'s are facing different.
I dont know if this means anything. Im only asking if anyone knows what this means.