$1,000,000 for anyone who can dowse.

[Sandsted]

 

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[ClonedSIM]

I'm sorry, but who really cares if dowsing is termed paranormal or not? It's included in Randi's list of items that would apply to his challenge, and that's all there is. If Sandy wants to try and prove that dreams exist to him, then let him try. The worst Randi can say is no, which he probably would.

 

[Captain Trips]

Mr Cameron devised a series of spring suspended indicators in a glass covered portable boxes in which no-way could the operator tilt the box and make the indicators move short of jarring it -- yet it indicated nicely ??

Were the indicators responding similar to a dip meedle or to a subconscious projected thought from the dowser?

Question: was this device hand held? Or did it sit on a motion-isolated platform, with no one touching it? If it was hand-held, then the ideomotor response does come into play -- via the miniscule subconscious motion of the hands holding it. The only way to show that the rods would move without an ideomotor response being involved is to place the device on the motion-isolated platform, and ensure that no one touches the device, the platform, or anything on its side of the motion isolation mechanism.

And, if it does show such a motion in an isolated situation, then that alone may qualify for the JREF Challenge.

 

[Sandsted]

Which he probably would?

Why?


Here's what Randi said,

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event."


Here's the definition of paranormal:

paranormal - of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation

I claim I have dreams at night. These dreams are without scientific explanation. Therefore my claim is a "claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation." Which is the definition of paranormal.

In conclusion...I am forced to note that dreams are then paranormal.

Since dreams are paranormal...

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any PARANORMAL, supernatural, or occult power or event."

...they obviously fit into the JREF challenge. He's offering a one-million-dollar prize to me if I can prove evidence of any paranormal event, under proper observing conditions of course.

So the consensus I will assume is that dreams are paranormal therefore fit into the challenge, therefore if I can prove them I get a million bucks.

But how to prove dreams...

It shouldn't be that difficult, I don't think there's any question that the event exists...

I'll get back to you on that one.

 

[Captain Trips]

Which he probably would?

Why?


Here's what Randi said,

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event."


Here's the definition of paranormal:

paranormal - of or pertaining to the claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation

I claim I have dreams at night. These dreams are without scientific explanation. Therefore my claim is a "claimed occurrence of an event or perception without scientific explanation." Which is the definition of paranormal.

In conclusion...I am forced to note that dreams are then paranormal.

Since dreams are paranormal...

"At JREF, we offer a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any PARANORMAL, supernatural, or occult power or event."

...they obviously fit into the JREF challenge. He's offering a one-million-dollar prize to me if I can prove evidence of any paranormal event, under proper observing conditions of course.

So the consensus I will assume is that dreams are paranormal therefore fit into the challenge, therefore if I can prove them I get a million bucks.

But how to prove dreams...

It shouldn't be that difficult, I don't think there's any question that the event exists...

I'll get back to you on that one.

Here's the flaw, which has been pointed out before: there IS a scientific explanation for dreams. It has been studied by many sleep researchers. They do know several confirmed facts regarding dreams: they usually occur during R.E.M. sleep, they are accompanied by a form of paralysis, the body attempts to physically act out what is happening in a dream, there are specific electrical activities in the brain directly related to dreaming. This electrical activity shows that neurons are firing at a similar rate as when awake, and via PET scans have determined they are especially active in areas of the brain more associated with memory and the visual cortex. These are therefore triggering visualizations heavily based on memories, resulting in what we call "dreams."

How can you say there is "no scientific basis for dreams" in the light of all of this scientific evidence?

 

[Sandsted]

Awesome...how 'bout thoughts?

 

[Captain Trips]

Awesome...how 'bout thoughts?

Both EEG and PET scans have shown different areas of the brain active depending on what someone is thinking about. Although they can't say (yet) EXACTLY what causes thought, there is scientifically obtained data from the research being done.

 

[Sandsted]

You're right, but there is no scientific explanation for what a thought is...

 

[ClonedSIM]

You're right, but there is no scientific explanation for what a thought is...

Wow, you're really reaching here, Sandy.

Okay, first off one of the requirements of the challenge is that your talent must somehow be verifiable. That right there would exclude dreams, as there is no way Randi could verify the dream you report is actually the one you had.

Second, you make wayyyy too many assumptions. You're the only one here calling dreams paranormal, and just because science hasn't given a perfect explanation for what dreams are does not mean that the scientific community questions whether they actually exist. They have given many different opinions as to their existence, and they continue to research them.

At any rate, if you don't believe me that Randi would reject the claim, then ask him yourself.

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html
To be fair, he has never claimed to be anything other than a showman, best expressed by his own remark,
'I am a charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.'

Hey as1733...Still did not read the references. Why would anyone ask Randi.

 

[ClonedSIM]

http://www.cfpf.org.uk/articles/background/nicholls.html
To be fair, he has never claimed to be anything other than a showman, best expressed by his own remark,
'I am a charlatan, a liar, a thief and a fake altogether.'

Hey as1733...Still did not read the references. Why would anyone ask Randi.

Regardless of what you think you know, Art, your references have nothing to do with my post to Sandy. I told Sandy to ask him if dreams would be admissible to his challenge.
Still not reading the posts, Art?

 

[Sandsted]

Af, dreams wouldn't be the best thing to take to the challenge. But if I did, I wouldn't have to demonstrate the dreams...I'd just have to prove them under observable conditions.

Secondly,

" You're the only one here calling dreams paranormal, and just because science hasn't given a perfect explanation for what dreams are does not mean that the scientific community questions whether they actually exist."


Who ever said that since something doesn't have a perfect explanation that it doesn't exist? Is this your view? Dowsing doesn't have a perfect explanation so it doesn't exist?

Why are scientists studying dreams? They haven't been proven under a challenge. Why would anyone want to find out what causes them when no one has proved they exist?

Because we know they exist. We know there is something to them and so we study them. Just because science didn't understand it didn't mean people didn't study it.

The brain is very unknown, don't doubt something because science doesn't have an answer.

 

[ClonedSIM]

Af, dreams wouldn't be the best thing to take to the challenge. But if I did, I wouldn't have to demonstrate the dreams...I'd just have to prove them under observable conditions.

Secondly,

" You're the only one here calling dreams paranormal, and just because science hasn't given a perfect explanation for what dreams are does not mean that the scientific community questions whether they actually exist."


Who ever said that since something doesn't have a perfect explanation that it doesn't exist? Is this your view? Dowsing doesn't have a perfect explanation so it doesn't exist?

Why are scientists studying dreams? They haven't been proven under a challenge. Why would anyone want to find out what causes them when no one has proved they exist?

Because we know they exist. We know there is something to them and so we study them. Just because science didn't understand it didn't mean people didn't study it.

The brain is very unknown, don't doubt something because science doesn't have an answer.

Did you have too much turkey at Christmas or something, Sandy? Why do you care about proving dreams exist when you can't even prove dowsing works?

Look, it works like this. The greater part of the population has dreams. No one is questioning their existance, even if we don't have concrete proof of them. It's not mass hysteria when 90 or 95% (just an estimate) of the population has dreams. But dreams aren't a tangeible thing, so they can't be measured or compared. This is why Randi wouldn't allow then into his challenge.

But very few people seem to be able to able to dowse. We're not talking about somethng that the greater part of the population does on a regular basis when it comes to dowsing. Luckily, dowsing does produce something that can be measured. Finds. Discoveries. The ability to locate items of value or significance. This is something that can be measured and compared.

So would you quit with the dang dreams already? It won't be allowed in Randi's challenge, no matter how you think they need to be described.

 

[Sandsted]

"Did you have too much turkey at Christmas or something, Sandy? Why do you care about proving dreams exist when you can't even prove dowsing works?"

Who said that I can't prove dowsing works? I can...perhaps not under the conditions of these flawed challenges. You know that, you know why, stop acting so ignorant.

And af, I'm just playing around with the notions of dreams for this reason. Dreams origin and what they are isn't fully understood nor explained. At least this was the claim by a certain scientist I know.

The connection (if that is true) between dreams and dowsing is that they are both relatively unexplained by science. But one of them you have no trouble believing in.

The purpose of my posts concerning dreams were to point out that you can't dismiss something because it is "unscientific" or based "on no known scientific principle".

You understand?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=RealdeTayopa ]


. My professors have all stressed this point a billion times. To even make the claim one thing "causes" another requires such massive evidence that it rarely happens.

************


this appears to me to be a complete simple non-ambiguous statement ending with a period. ?

Tropical Tramp

 

[ClonedSIM]

Sandy, you spew out so much crap it's tough to know where to begin.

I can...perhaps not under the conditions of these flawed challenges. You know that, you know why, stop acting so ignorant.

The challenge is flawed only because you can't pass it.
If you'd like me to stop being so ignorant, then dig up your Viking ship. That would help...

Dreams origin and what they are isn't fully understood nor explained. At least this was the claim by a certain scientist I know.

And who is this scientist? Does he believe everything you do is real? Why not have him administer a test?

The connection (if that is true) between dreams and dowsing is that they are both relatively unexplained by science. But one of them you have no trouble believing in.

Because I've experienced dreams first-hand, regardless of their causes or how you try to classify them. Never before have I seen a dowser successfully dowse.

The purpose of my posts concerning dreams were to point out that you can't dismiss something because it is "unscientific" or based "on no known scientific principle".

You understand?

Your purposes of pointing out dreams wasted bandwidth and proved nothing. You understand?

 

[ClonedSIM]

And I actually have a question for you, a point SWR brought up in another thread.

You believe dowsing works, and you expect us to as well, sight unseen, with no evidence.

What if I told you I could levitate? That I needed no ladder to put up my Christmas lights because I just floated up and strung them? Would you believe that, sight unseen, even though it falls under the heading of paranormal?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

=SWR
. My professors have all stressed this point a billion times. To even make the claim one thing "causes" another requires such massive evidence that it rarely happens.
************
this appears to me to be a complete simple non-ambiguous statement ending with a period. ?

Tropical Tramp
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I implore you to PLEASE use the proper protocol when quoting someone's post. In all appearances above, you are quoting yourself?
****************

Odd, in my post #988 it appears normal and separate, not as in your post SWR? I would suggest checking your technique.

 

[ClonedSIM]

(something totally embarrassing...involving a cat)...am currently on heavy meds.. .....( typing one handed so bear with me ).

Judy :P

Forgive my, Judy. I read your posts and couldn't resist the urge to delete a couple of sentences for my own personal enjoyment.

Seriousy, cat-related injuries top the list this holiday season, right behind turkey basting mishaps. Are you okay?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

SwR, I see that Xu's id was wiped out leaving just mine. Actually it was for Xu's benefit only, so it was not important. Incidentally this is possibly the first and is completely un-essential to the subject.

Tropical Tramp