Oak Island the Strange, the Bizarre, and Maybe the "Truth!

[gjb]

The Lat.Long... I derived from the Google Map supplied by Forum Member Charlie P. (NY) post # 5 on this thread.

https://www.google.com/maps/place/4...3159846,7392m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0x0
.

Robot

I clicked the link you gave above, and this shows what I provided as the Lat.Long: N 44 31', 64 18' W. So, from GPS readings obtained personally, I’d say the triangle lies at about N 44 30' 45", 64 17' 20" W (rounded to nearest 5"). It cannot possibly be where you’re saying.

As to the date, I’ve used Stellarium to give me a starting point, and the stars still seem wrong. I make it about 02.30 a.m. before i Bootis is in the right position. Don’t do anything fancy, just set the location, then the date and time, and pan to north. It might even be better if somebody else on the forum tries it!

 

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[Robot]

Hi gjb

If I open the link and see Oak Island, place the mouse where you would expect the Triangle to be located, you get the coordinates I have stated.

 

[gjb]

So forgive me if I ask where the 1700's came in? I haven't been monitoring this forum as I should.

Maybe you're drinking too much coffee! Decaf?

We're currently exploring the Freemasons star map of 1762. Do keep up!!

The carbon dating of wood and fibre seems to be something of a wash-out, given the date ranges. I assume the samples were too degraded. I'd have to agree that the star mapping we're discussing would have to be after 1700, but I don't think that the Lat.Long of the triangle is particularly significant, but then this is not my party!

Have another , and try to sleep on it!

 

[gjb]

Hi gjb

If I open the link and see Oak Island, place the mouse where you would expect the Triangle to be located, you get the coordinates I have stated.

Hi Robot

I don't think you're listening! The island really does lie at N 44 31', 64 18' W! Your reading is greater than this. Logic says it's got to be wrong.

Google the location you state. Or Google the location of Chester. Your location is northwest of Chester. Oak Island is south of Chester. Ergo, your location has to be wrong.

 

[lokiblossom]

Maybe you're drinking too much coffee! Decaf?

We're currently exploring the Freemasons star map of 1762. Do keep up!!

The carbon dating of wood and fibre seems to be something of a wash-out, given the date ranges.

I disagree, the dating's of the fibre have consistently given a period well before the 1700's, and they have been consistently identified as coconut.
Cheers, Loki

 

[gjb]

I disagree, the dating's of the fibre have consistently given a period well before the 1700's, and they have been consistently identified as coconut.

I believe the first reading from wood samples gave a date based on 1585, with a variation of 50 years. If that's one standard deviation then 1685 is still a possibility. An oak tree that died in 1685 could still be available for use in the 1700s. The sample could also have come from an older part of the tree, and I understand that red oaks can live for 200+ years. That puts the 1700s well within scope.

I seem to recall that on Curse of Oak Island they got a reading for the fibre based on 1200 A.D., but I don't remember the variation. Let's say it was 50 years. That means that the dating of the wood (1485 - 1685) and the fibre (1100 - 1300) don't really match up. Presumably, the fibre could have been sitting on the ground, or in storage, for a long time.

I don't feel the carbon dates are telling us a great deal, and they could be giving false readings through immersion in the ground or sea water. To be able to say that the date the samples died is likely to be between 1100 and 1685, maybe, is not telling us anything about the century in which the operation took place, let alone the decade.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

gjb, perhapsnot, but coupled with the popular useage as a packing, which required extensive new plantations does. Together they do tell us many things. Coco nut trees are a non native tree for many of the areas and required the hand of man. All of which tend to verify the base/ period of of usage of them and possible dating, coupled with the carbon
reading. If it can be reasonably sure that it predates te 1700's then we have a different kettle of fish to stew.

I admit that the idea of storage is interesting, but ==.

 

[gjb]

gjb, perhapsnot, but coupled with the popular useage as a packing, which required extensive new plantations does. ... If it can be reasonably sure that it predates te 1700's then we have a different kettle of fish to stew. I admit that the idea of storage is interesting, but ==.

I find the dating of the fibre tricky, and it was no doubt used as packing for a long time. I'm also concerned about dates going back before 1500. However, it's claims about the trees that most concern me.

Assume that, in 1740, a 200-year-old oak tree is cut down. It follows that there are parts of this tree dating to 1540. The wood is seasoned for 20 years, and then used in 1762. A sample is taken and found to date to 1585. This is not the year the wood was used: it does not reflect the date of the operation.

A tree is cut down in 1700, so parts will date to 1500. The wood is seasoned for 20 years and used in the construction of a ship. This is broken up 50 years later and used in an operation in 1770. A sample taken dates to 1585. This is not the year of the operation.

A similar argument may apply to the fibre. Coconut fibre from coconuts of all ages is collected and stored for a considerable time, and then used. So, the date of any sample will not be representative of the whole, and will certainly not reflect the year of use. Unfortunately, I don't know how long fibre might reasonably be kept in storage, or how much it might degrade in sea water.

If the samples have degraded then the dates could be way off. It’s simply that I’m neither confident about the dates nor the assumptions being made about the use of the samples. We don’t know enough about them.

I'm not pushing for any particular century, simply because of these questions. So, I'm not prepared to rule out 1762, though I'm not very happy with 1585. However, if people here wish to make claims based on the stated results of carbon dating, I really am quite happy to keep my thoughts to myself.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

GJB, " I am wiling to keep my tjooghts to myself"

Why ? nothing is cut and dried yet on the theories of Oak Ialand, and until someone comes up with proof, all stand equally. So far just as many IF'S on one theory as the other, and I still favor the idea of a 'J' tunel system where the access is not through the original excavation, but through a new one , thus bypassing a shaft full of water by someone having tripped the water trap, As I have mentioned. they obviously intended to retrieve it

 

[gjb]

I really am quite happy to keep my thoughts to myself.

What I meant was that I wouldn't make a great song and dance about disagreeing! Some of the arguments for and against can't be new to many here.

 

[gjb]

As I have mentioned. they obviously intended to retrieve it

The old problem: if it’s not in the Money Pit then it may well be easier to recover, but if somewhere else then it may already have been recovered.

There is, in this, the assumption that the originator intended to recover it. What if this is wrong, and that he, or they, intended somebody else to recover it at some later date?

This is my thinking concerning the need to leave instructions such as on maps.

 

[gjb]

Hi gjb If I open the link and see Oak Island, place the mouse where you would expect the Triangle to be located, you get the coordinates I have stated.

Hi Robot

I think I may have an answer to our problem. You may not like it, but you can certainly check it out. You gave as the location of the triangle: Latitude: 44 deg 51' 23.72 Longitude: 64 deg 28' 9.27.

Try this: Assume that what you’re seeing are in decimal degrees. So, convert 44.512372 into degrees and minutes. Do the same with 64.28927. The result is 44 30.7423' and 64 17.3562'.

Robot, from GPS readings obtained personally, I’d say the triangle lies at about N 44 30' 45", 64 17' 20" W (rounded to nearest 5").

Convert the result of your calculation to ‘dd mm ss’ and you get N 44 30' 45", 64 17' 21" W, which is what I reported I obtained based on GPS readings (see above).

It may look like a happenstance of number, but I doubt it, and if I say the obvious I might end up in the Sin Bin! Nevertheless, may I suggest that you check out this hypothesis - just treat the values provided as decimal degrees, and convert the decimal fraction into minutes by multiplying by 60 (if you wish, you can then subtract the whole minutes and multiply by 60 to get the seconds.)

I suggest that from hereon we use the coordinates above for the location of the triangle. I’ll go ahead on this basis.


 

[lokiblossom]

I find the dating of the fibre tricky, and it was no doubt used as packing for a long time. I'm also concerned about dates going back before 1500. However, it's claims about the trees that most concern me.

Assume that, in 1740, a 200-year-old oak tree is cut down. It follows that there are parts of this tree dating to 1540. The wood is seasoned for 20 years, and then used in 1762. A sample is taken and found to date to 1585. This is not the year the wood was used: it does not reflect the date of the operation.

A tree is cut down in 1700, so parts will date to 1500. The wood is seasoned for 20 years and used in the construction of a ship. This is broken up 50 years later and used in an operation in 1770. A sample taken dates to 1585. This is not the year of the operation.

A similar argument may apply to the fibre. Coconut fibre from coconuts of all ages is collected and stored for a considerable time, and then used. So, the date of any sample will not be representative of the whole, and will certainly not reflect the year of use. Unfortunately, I don't know how long fibre might reasonably be kept in storage, or how much it might degrade in sea water.

If the samples have degraded then the dates could be way off. It’s simply that I’m neither confident about the dates nor the assumptions being made about the use of the samples. We don’t know enough about them.

I'm not pushing for any particular century, simply because of these questions. So, I'm not prepared to rule out 1762, though I'm not very happy with 1585. However, if people here wish to make claims based on the stated results of carbon dating, I really am quite happy to keep my thoughts to myself.

The C-14 dating process begins when the living object being dated dies. All parts of your 200 year old tree cut down in 1740 would date to 1740. The various C-14 tests on the coconut fibre of Oak Island are dated to between 1190 and 1400, and shallow sea water would not effect the dating process. I also doubt anybody would use 100 year old coconut fibre as packing. If nobody lied about the dating or the identification than we have coconut fibre found on Oak Island that could only have come from around the Indian Ocean. FindersKeepers is working on a site once called Charing Cross about 15 miles up the Gold River from Oak Island. It is my opinion that his team will find a connection to the Knights Templars.
Cheers, Loki

 

[gjb]

The C-14 dating process begins when the living object being dated dies. All parts of your 200 year old tree cut down tree in 1740 would date to 1740.

Hi Loki

You say this with such utter conviction, I'm sure you'll convince a lot of people! Were this true, dendrochronology with respect to correcting carbon dating would not work!! A 2,000 year-old tree has 2,000 living rings? Yeah, right! It was a good try!!!!!

The various C-14 tests on the coconut fibre of Oak Island are dated to between 1190 and 1400, and shallow sea water would not effect the dating process.

I've heard of the date range, and don't doubt those were the results, but I don't know how accurate they are. Could you possibly provide the authority, or academic paper, on the effect of sea water?

I also doubt anybody would use 100 year old coconut fibre as packing.

You have an advantage over me. I don't know what 100-year-old coconut fibre looks like. Oops, hold on, having said that, if you're right, then I do. I happen to have in front of me a swatch of fibre from Oak Island, provided by Reginald V. Harris, which could be 800 years old! It looks in absolutely great condition! I'd use it for packing if I had more of it. I truly did think of having it tested, but I'd need a better evidence trail, and it's costly.

If nobody lied about the dating or the identification than we have coconut fibre found on Oak Island that could only have come from around the Indian Ocean.

East Indiamen sailing vessels came into western seas through the Indian Ocean. Their cargoes could have been packed with coconut fibre.

FindersKeepers is working on a site once called Charing Cross about 15 miles up the Gold River from Oak Island. It is my opinion that his team will find a connection to the Knights Templars. Cheers, Loki.

I've heard about that, and I truly wish you success in seeing this through to completion.

I said I wouldn't make a song and dance about the topic, so I'll leave you to your views, and wish you well with any subsequent discussion.

 

[Robot]

When Your "Right"...You are "Right"!

Hi Robot

I think I may have an answer to our problem. You may not like it, but you can certainly check it out. You gave as the location of the triangle: Latitude: 44 deg 51' 23.72 Longitude: 64 deg 28' 9.27.

Try this: Assume that what you’re seeing are in decimal degrees. So, convert 44.512372 into degrees and minutes. Do the same with 64.28927. The result is 44 30.7423' and 64 17.3562'.



Convert the result of your calculation to ‘dd mm ss’ and you get N 44 30' 45", 64 17' 21" W, which is what I reported I obtained based on GPS readings (see above).

It may look like a happenstance of number, but I doubt it, and if I say the obvious I might end up in the Sin Bin! Nevertheless, may I suggest that you check out this hypothesis - just treat the values provided as decimal degrees, and convert the decimal fraction into minutes by multiplying by 60 (if you wish, you can then subtract the whole minutes and multiply by 60 to get the seconds.)

I suggest that from hereon we use the coordinates above for the location of the triangle. I’ll go ahead on this basis.

Yes you are right!
The numbers I got when I clicked on the Google Map presuming where I believed the Triangle was...Were indeed in "Decimal".

I have corrected the Freemason Celestial Map accordingly to your coordinates.

It still lines up!

 

[gjb]

It still lines up!

I wanted to discuss that. I hesitate to say, "of course it lines up." You’ve only slightly nudged your position. This is a view of the sky anybody at the mid latitudes in the northern hemisphere can see all or in part. They’d probably see it in London on that same date, though I imagine a bit higher up and, of course, at a different time.

I think I mentioned, I was hoping the weather here would improve, as I could see it in reverse (upside down) after midnight with i Bootis roughly at the zenith. I wanted to see what the alignments look like in real life. I know I’ll get to see it right way up at the end of November, and other times I’m not yet aware of.

Which brings me to wonder why the latitude and longitude of the Welling Triangle is important. I don’t see it yet. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

By the way, I still don’t get this star map appearing at midnight at the autumn equinox, 1762, at the triangle. I also had somebody else set it, and they didn’t hit it either. I just hope the date and time aren't important!

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Doc, I believe a better example would be the Incas, how did they get such a cmpound fit in their walls ? I once read two articles that might explain it. Col Fawset wrote that after walking in a field of suculent that he noticed his spurs were almot gone. I also read of a type of bird that nests exclusively in Granite. Seems that the bird had learned that a certailn suculent when rubbed on granite softes it enough so that a nesting hole could be pecked out.

Were the Incas sufficiently observant also and used that to soften those gigantic rocks sufficiently to conform to the many odd angles??

A plant with silica disolving characteristics ?x

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola GJB, yes they are very important of course.

 

[Robot]

Putting the Cart before the Horse?

I wanted to discuss that. I hesitate to say, "of course it lines up." You’ve only slightly nudged your position. This is a view of the sky anybody at the mid latitudes in the northern hemisphere can see all or in part. They’d probably see it in London on that same date, though I imagine a bit higher up and, of course, at a different time.

I think I mentioned, I was hoping the weather here would improve, as I could see it in reverse (upside down) after midnight with i Bootis roughly at the zenith. I wanted to see what the alignments look like in real life. I know I’ll get to see it right way up at the end of November, and other times I’m not yet aware of.

Which brings me to wonder why the latitude and longitude of the Welling Triangle is important. I don’t see it yet. Perhaps you could enlighten me?

By the way, I still don’t get this star map appearing at midnight at the autumn equinox, 1762, at the triangle. I also had somebody else set it, and they didn’t hit it either. I just hope the date and time aren't important!

Working on the Celestial Map is a lot like a person working from the back of a Cart, to prove that a Horse is attached to it.

It would be easier just to go to the front of the cart and look the Horse in the eye.

The purpose of the Map was to show what the Freemason would have seen above the night Sky on Oak Island at a set time, and the Stars they would have used as Markers.

These Freemasons were mariners who used Fixed Stars to Navigate.

They were unsure as to how long their treasure would require remaining on the island.

What they wanted was a Permanent Marker, which could be reconstructed if it was moved or destroyed.

I believe the Celestial Star Markers were placed on Oak Island as Terrestrial Stone Markers and that many of them are still present and may be used to transect the location of the Treasure Vault and Bacon’s Tomb.

The Lagina Brothers may have located the Polaris Stone within their last season’s episode and this could be critical for locating further Stones.

I would like to see a survey of the Island to help locate the further Stones still not found.

 

[Warpspeed]

Hello, first post here.

I doubt if we are going to get anywhere until the problem of the network of interconnected flood tunnels is solved.

The original designers of Oak Island were very clever, but they did not reckon on modern technology.
Now the problem is discovering where all this sea water is coming from, which is really impossible, because it seems to be coming from multiple very carefully concealed sources.

There are simple well proven ways to trace where water is going, that are commonly used to trace water flow through complex networks of underground caves, for example. This is often done by adding flourescein dye to the water that can be detected in incredibly small concentrations. A few drops from an eye dropper can be detected in an Olympic sized swimming pool with the right equipment.

There is plenty on the internet about using flouriscin dye, so I will not go into the details here.

So far, efforts to pump the money pit dry have all failed because of the very high volume of entering water.

What I am suggesting is that a much better way to do this is pump water INTO the money pit, along with a small amount of flouriscin dye, from a chemical dosing pump. Then see where this water comes out into the surrounding sea.

Extremely low concentrations of dye can be detected, so by taking water samples from off shore, and recording locations and concentrations, all the multiple sources of the emerging water seeping up through the sea bed should be able to be pin pointed.
Once you know that, it may be possible to intercept the hidden passages where they cross the beach, if you know roughly where they may be located.

Its going to be a very long job, and a lot of hard work and patience will be required, but it should be possible to monitor the total flow being pumped, and relative concentration of dye to seal off the flood tunnels one by one.

When flow has been cut to zero. In other words the water pumped into the money pit can maintain a suitable head, without any leakage back to the sea, then it should be possible to pump it completely dry without it flooding.