Just curious...but with a price of near a $100 on Amazon new, and near $40 used...are all these books really worth that kind of money? What I am getting at is do they give better/more information than the basic story and known clues or maps? I just can't see how one can be better than the other except maybe in the telling..
Is the Pit Mine really the Lost Dutchman mine?
- Thread starter Oroblanco
- Start date
sgtfda
Bronze Member
$25 new at the Ok Corral
ConceptualizedNetherlandr
Bronze Member
...this has devolved into yet another go buy a book...
Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
Nah CNL, but is a source of conflicting data All information has it's place. I only wish that I had had such a source/sources when I started on Tayopa, still need one to fill in the blanks, of which there are many..A 'for instance' -- where did F.Dobie get his map of Tayopa? While 100% accurate, where 
?
?"--- where did F.Dobie get his map of Tayopa? While 100% accurate, where
Possibly from his friend Henry O. Flipper?
From mobeetie.com; (nothing about the map, just good early info about the man.)
"Flipper became the first black graduate from West Point on June 14, 1877, after enduring four years of loneliness and isolation among the predominantly white cadets who, from time to time, harassed and mistreated him. When Flipper was handed his diploma, he received a standing ovation from his classmates and the spectators for his four years of dedication and courage. Major General John Schofield, West Point's Superintendent, gave a tribute to Flipper's bravery against isolation and exclusion by his classmates. He stated, "No white cadet had ever been burdened with the hope of an entire race on his shoulders. Anyone knows how quietly and bravely this young man--the first of his despised race to graduate from West Point--has borne the difficulties of his position; how for four years he has had to stand apart from his classmates as one with them but not of them... ." Henry O. Flipper became the first black officer in the United States Military Service."
Closer to the map issue;
From tshaonline.org [Texas State Historical Association]
(Handbook of Texas Online, Bruce J. Dinges, "Flipper, Henry Ossian)
"Beginning in 1901 Flipper spent eleven years in northern Mexico as an engineer and legal assistant to mining companies. He joined the Balvanera Mining Company in 1901 and remained as keeper of the company's property when it folded in 1903. William C. Greene bought the company in 1905, renamed it the Gold-Silver Company, and placed Flipper in the legal department, where he handled land claims and sales and kept mining crews out of trouble with the local authorities. Greene, who had learned earlier of Flipper's research on the Lost Tayopa Mine, sent him(Flipper) to Spain to do more investigation. The story of Flipper and the Lost Tayopa Mine appears in J. Frank Dobie's Apache Gold and Yaqui Silver."
From bc-alter.net
'The Lost Jesuit Gold of the Sierra Madre' by Tim Haydock
"For the knowledge of our Vicar General, I have written this to inform our Superior. This inventory, written by a Jesuit and sealed on 17 February, 1646, was found by Henry O. Flipper, the Spanish legal expert, surveyor and historian of mines and mining, in 19121. It tallies almost exactly with another of the same date which had been in the possession of the priest of Guadalupe de Santa Ana, a tiny village in Sonora, Mexico, and which came to light in 1927. Both are headed: A true and positive description of the mining camp Real of Our Lady of Guadalupe of Tayopa, made in January 1646, by the Right Reverend Father Guardian Fray, Francisco Villegas Garsina y Orosco, Royal Vicar-General of the Royal and Distinguished Jesuit Order of Saint Ignacio of Tayopa, and Jesuit of the Great Faculty of the Province of Sonora and Biscalla, whom my God keep long years."
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Or as Haydock wrote;
"In 1911, Flipper was in Spain where he discovered a paper giving directions to Tayopa. He quotes it verbatim:On the 7th day of March stand on the summit of Cerro de la Campana, near the Villa de la Concepcion, and look at the sun as it sets. It will be setting directly over Tayopa. Travel eight days from the Cerro de la Campana towards the sunset of March 7th and you will come to Tayopa."
"He was able to identify Cerro de la Campana with considerable confidence as Cerro de la Minaca, a bell-shaped hill a few miles south of the town now called Guerrero, in Chihuahua. But Flipper could never avail himself of this clue: the Revolution prevented further work in Mexico, and he was sent to Venezuela. He never came back. In 1927, C. B. Ruggles, a latterday frontiersman and veteran Tayopa hunter, and the writer, J. Frank Dobie were approached at their camp in La Quiparita, a valley to the west of Chihuahua, by a man who gave his name as Custard. Custard possessed an extended version of the original inventory which included directions to Tayopa from a flat-topped mountain or mesa
Campanero. He also had an approximate and highly stylized map which placed Tayopa amidst the hills of the Sierra Madre. These documents had been copied from originals left by Father Domingo, the parish priest of Guadalupe de Santa Ana, a man who was described by an old Indian parishioner as ‘a queer man…always walking about and looking, looking.’ Custard proposed that they pool. Their skills and resources. IF they should find the lost village, Custard would take the treasure in the church crypt and Ruggles and Dobie could have the mine."
Apparently one among several stories of the maps orgin.
"In 1911, Flipper was in Spain where he discovered a paper giving directions to Tayopa. He quotes it verbatim:On the 7th day of March stand on the summit of Cerro de la Campana, near the Villa de la Concepcion, and look at the sun as it sets. It will be setting directly over Tayopa. Travel eight days from the Cerro de la Campana towards the sunset of March 7th and you will come to Tayopa."
"He was able to identify Cerro de la Campana with considerable confidence as Cerro de la Minaca, a bell-shaped hill a few miles south of the town now called Guerrero, in Chihuahua. But Flipper could never avail himself of this clue: the Revolution prevented further work in Mexico, and he was sent to Venezuela. He never came back. In 1927, C. B. Ruggles, a latterday frontiersman and veteran Tayopa hunter, and the writer, J. Frank Dobie were approached at their camp in La Quiparita, a valley to the west of Chihuahua, by a man who gave his name as Custard. Custard possessed an extended version of the original inventory which included directions to Tayopa from a flat-topped mountain or mesa
Campanero. He also had an approximate and highly stylized map which placed Tayopa amidst the hills of the Sierra Madre. These documents had been copied from originals left by Father Domingo, the parish priest of Guadalupe de Santa Ana, a man who was described by an old Indian parishioner as ‘a queer man…always walking about and looking, looking.’ Custard proposed that they pool. Their skills and resources. IF they should find the lost village, Custard would take the treasure in the church crypt and Ruggles and Dobie could have the mine."
Apparently one among several stories of the maps orgin.
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Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp
Gold Member
ernie, want to see just how accurate that was ? If you want the story on how this was verified-- I would suggest posting this in the Tayopa thread. the co-ordinates are for the 8 th oof March.
View attachment Setting Sum from Mueca..jpg
View attachment Setting Sum from Mueca..jpg
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Real de Tayopa,
Thanks, I'll check out that thread.
I know absolutely nothing about Tayopa, just have a fairly curious google button.
The first time I remember even seeing the word Tayopa was in your screen name.
It is an extremely interesting subject, one that gets more so the deeper you dig. (no pun intended)
Thanks for introducing me to it.
Thanks, I'll check out that thread.
I know absolutely nothing about Tayopa, just have a fairly curious google button.
The first time I remember even seeing the word Tayopa was in your screen name.
It is an extremely interesting subject, one that gets more so the deeper you dig. (no pun intended)
Thanks for introducing me to it.
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Azquester
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After looking at the Pit Mine....I do believe the Pit Mine is or at least was the Lost Dutchman Mine until someone took all the ore out of it. It matches the clues to closely to not be and the ore smaples we've seen appeared to be the same as the matchbook. Two room cabin, pit above the mine, mine entrance and pit covered over and hidden. All of that points to it being the LDM!
Plus like Frank said it's near Pinto creek which Jacob told someone he had a rich mine there.
Just my opinion.
Plus like Frank said it's near Pinto creek which Jacob told someone he had a rich mine there.
Just my opinion.
BlackLine
Full Member
oh pinto creek 
then i have something for you
then i have something for you
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Bill,
You are a little late with your conclusions. Most of us considered the Pit Mine a good candidate back in 2008. That information can be found on the old LDM Forum. Most of the information came by way of David Leach. The only question for me, is if it was a cache when Waltz stumbled on it.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Azquester
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I'm always a day late!
Tell me Joe is that land part of Wilderness?
I've seen the area from GE you can drive up there to the trailhead pretty darn close. The big question is if it was or is the LDM why did it take so long for anyone to find it? It's pretty close to many other mining operations and many people probably knew about it for a century or more and never considered it. So why in modern times would anyone even bother with it unless it was barren to begin with? With a two room cabin at the base of the canyon you would think even Barry Storm would've been on that site. It's in a known gold and silver mine district. In 2008 I wasn't paying much attention to the conversations on the other forum. I was to busy trying to save my business and what I worked for my whole life just like everyone else back then. If Mr Leach was so convinced it was the mine he must've been directly involved in the cleaning out of all that GOOOOLLLLLDDD!
looks can be deceiving bill..that area is so overgrown with manzanita and brush you can be right on top of the mine and never see it..just getting there would take most of the day ...you would spend most of your time whacking brush
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Bill,
azdave35's reply to you is spot on.
When Dave (Not the same Dave) found the Pit Mine, it had been worked for three years, summers only. There was nothing left, which is why I believe it was a large cache. That would explain why the Waltz ore was so rich and described in differing matrix's. You should go back and read those posts.
Most of the information I got from Dave. Some I developed on my own. I never got any information from the people we believed cleaned out the mine.
It is in the Wilderness Area.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
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Azquester
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Whacking in the brush...sounds like a sex offense...but being so close to Queen Valley, Superior and a silver mine, I'm sure there were gobs of prospectors crawling all over the place...up until a few years ago it was more barren from the desert drought that ended in 2010-2011 and you could probably get there at least a little easier...with the directions Waltz gave I could see how it would be lost for so long... his assertion about being a small distance back from the western end of the range is very misleading in my opinion...if this is / was the LDM...at least someone got rich off it...if it were a Mexican mine and not Spanish...the Spaniards were more clandestine in their hiding techniques...you would never find it if it was an old Royal Gold Mine... it would be undetectable from the landscape....so depending on the people that owned it previously (Claimed staked it at the BLM) from earlier years it could've been anglo we just don't know it was or at least no artifacts or Dutchman tools / cache were recovered, well, at least that anyone would publicly post.
cactusjumper
Gold Member
Bill,
Who really knows what clues actually came from Waltz, and which clues may have been given to mislead? Believe there are more of the later than the former.
Good luck,
Joe Ribaudo
Azquester
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How close can you get to the actual mine driving a 4x4? Whacking brush is no problem for me I carry two Trambotina's one for me and one for a companion. I'm thinking about going there if this crazy cool weather keeps up. I'd like to do some video's and some detecting. Of course it would be illegal to take anything from there that's why I always throw back any artifacts or gold nuggets I find.
It would be nice for someone to do an in depth investigation of the mine. I know Ryan tried it before he became an outcast and he was voted off the island. He never went because of death threats he received. If anyone what's to threaten me now's the time to do it. I shoot real bullets and if one hits you I retrieve it from the body. I wouldn't want to add to the trash problem in the wilderness.
Although shooting someone that's shooting at me would be the trashy thing to do. If someone removed it how many people do you think stumbled onto the operation before it was completed? They, whomever they were, would've had to kill many people and hide their bodies somewhere for that to be a secret operation. Or pay them off one at a time with Dutchman Ore.
Anyone care to go there?
bill..the forest service has closed the mine and reclamated the area ...driving to the area is easy..and you dont even need 4x4 to drive to the wilderness boundary...it's after you cross into the wilderness that it gets ugly...i dont think a machete would help...you would need a chainsaw..manzanita branches are pretty tough ...and the tree's and brush are so thick you can't really see too far in front of you...if you dont have coords to the mine i seriously doubt you would be able to locate it..before you decide to take the trip go to google earth and check out the landscape..all tree's and brush..kinda like the old saying..you can't see the forest for the tree's
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Having been to the pit mine, and knowing what I now know, I would think that the pit mine is the old Silver Chief Mine, and that it was re-mined in recent times. The mine that Jacob Waltz was in is still out there somewhere. I`ve been to an area where I think the mine is. A lot of information that I`ve gathered says I`m close. Maybe it`s a hunch or my gut talking to me, or maybe I`m like those that looked before me that came up empty handed. Either way I `m going to look one more time. It takes a lot of work to get to the area, you have to climb and it could be very difficult at times. So I`m throwing this out there, If there are any strong adventurers out there that want to join me on my next hike, contact me. After all, it`s the LDM we`re talkin` about. ps I think we can do it in 3 days/2 nights.
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