Lost City of Paititi....................The greatest treasure hunt of our lifetime.

[lilorphanannie]

[FONT=&quot]Each situation in dealing with indigneous people ,tribal lands ,ejidos etc. is case specific. There is no general one answer cure all. It would take me several hours to explain the hows and whys and what I have learned is necessary to bridge these gaps in ideologies. Sadly few people have the interest to learn about cultural sensitivity . I am a lone prospector, most of my life working completely alone but among indigneous communities. I have delivered babies, brought in medical services, loaned heavy equipment to build roads, purchased generators , dug wells, and built small a schoolhouse. Bring in supplies every time I come back from town . In some 40 years I never had one indigneous person accept money. I also speak spanish fluently and 5 different dialects. If I am going into Yanomani land, I read ,study and prepare. The biggest request I had in the Amazon basin was cooking oil and utensils. I never did any of these things expecting anything in return, no ulterior motive. Just common decency. I studied tropical diseases and carried a first aid kit. In return ,I have been offered land, livestock ,a stand of mahogany trees, vicuna wool,etc. One occasion that comes to mind a 1.2 carat diamond was shoved into my shirt pocket after giving a lady a two liter bottle of cooking oil. One time in Mexico ,I picked up an indian family seeing that they were carrying a heavy load. There were 5 in all piled into my jeep. After about 45 minutes I heard wretching coming from one of the children as he was vomiting and on my prospecting equipment. I made it to a creek where I pulled over unloaded everything and cleaned up. The father began to give the boy a serious whipping. I asked him to please stop. In his eyes he had to punish the boy in front of me to apologize for the mess. None of the children had ever rode in a vehicle and the mountain trail was winding for hours. He stopped hitting on the child but I could tell that he still felt that he owed me. Finally after three hours we made it to a blacktop country road where they could catch a bus going in the other direction. As we parted ways ,he said ,sir please take this bag.I initially said no but he insisted,I thought it was some tortillas or other food item, finally I said OK,thanks. I opened the bag and there was a round ball of tar looking resin. I didnt recognize it so I asked ,what is this? He said its its that stuff all of you foreigners like, it comes from the poppy flower, He said we are going to town to sell it ,but I want you to have it ,its worth a lot of money where you come from, I finally won the argument telling him that he needed the money for his family and I would rather have something to eat. So I took some pork empanadas instead. --------- Years later I worked for several exploration companies hired as the first person to go into an area and make an evaluation on conditions and receptivity to outside intrusion. I would suggest anyone, individual or company , prepare themselves,or have people on the payroll that have the experience to work with the community.[/FONT]

 

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[BillA]

interesting description of a Rockefeller being eaten
do not assume, use a contact man

 

[KANACKI]

interesting description of a Rockefeller being eaten
do not assume, use a contact man

Hola Amigo Strange inference Side story,

Reminds me of an event when I was Kid about 11 or 12 in Rabaul New Guinea.

My Dad in 1962 who went with a medical team from Papua New Guinea to what was still Dutch New Guinea to assist in bringing medical supplies to natives suffering from a cholera epidemic outbreak. He Got told by the Asmat natives there that the missing Micheal Rockefeller was killed and eaten by natives for two reasons in retaliation for an earlier Dutch punitive expedition. And natives also believed Micheal Rockefeller brought bad spirits with him bringing cholera, And he was killed and eaten.

While the then Dutch Administration would not confirm it due to political reasons at the time as they thought Rockefeller senior had powerful influence on US policy. And push the Dutch to hand over colony to Indonesia. There was never a mystery about the disappearance of Micheal Rockefeller.

I suppose that term is rather redundant these days except from people my age or older.

But forgive my intrusion please do continue.

Kanacki

 

[BillA]

to my knowledge there is no mystery, just little publicity
my only point was not to barge in thinking you will be welcome
Indigenous people are quite independent.

 

[lilorphanannie]

[FONT=&quot]When I decided what I wanted to do,I knew the why , but I had to think long and hard as to the how and where. I also knew I had to be worthy. How can I justify going onto someones property and take out their gold? Invariably, everywhere I went upon introducing myself, the first question was .What are you looking for? What are you wanting to take from us? Valid questions I think. As long as you make the division as you and them, you most likely never succeed and walk away cursing them. It needs to be us. If you do steamroll your project over them, you create bitterness and in extreme cases sabotage and violence. It is amazing that we percieve out way of thinking is the right way and the only way. For those who have sincere interest in trying to understand these problems on a larger platform,and have the courage to hear another perspective I suggest reading ´Confessions of an Economic Hitman´, Pathway Between the Seas for a start. My personal motto relative to this subject matterhas been ¨Its not what you do but how you do it,¨[/FONT]

 

[Phil]

I believe any project should be a win-win for everybody, and my original thought process was finding a remote area where locals would welcome a mine in exchange for investment in their community such as a school, hospital, or homes. However, after researching further, even if we went into it with the best of intentions, there are too many instances of locals entering into an agreement then backing out after the other party has spent millions. Too risky for me.

The Yukon does not have rich ground like SA, but something is better than nothing.

 

[lilorphanannie]

Everyone has made valid points here. It also is worth mentioning that there are many projects available in Latin America, located on non tribal lands, and you are free of this potential headache.

 

[lilorphanannie]

https://www.mexicominingcenter.com/properties/ Here are examples of some properties you can get in Mexico, in various stages of development ,that you wont have problems with community politics. There are many others, from free to claim to proven reserves.

 

[Phil]

Everyone has made valid points here. It also is worth mentioning that there are many projects available in Latin America, located on non tribal lands, and you are free of this potential headache.

Hope I didn't offend. We have worked hard for several years and saved enough to invest in a larger operation, so it's simply a business decision. Still going to keep looking though because a mining operation in SA would give me the opportunity to test my theories about Paititi.

And thank you for all of the information. It has been very helpful!

 

[lilorphanannie]

There nothing offensive in your comments. We all are trying to find our place. We can learn from each other and also network to help each other out.Thats the fun of it!

 

[KANACKI]

Hola amigos

My job was in New Guinea was operations liaison officer between exploration crews and landowners. When I was in South America I had a different role just running a drilling crew. So we have very little contact with small artisanal miners. As we was working under contract with large exploration companies Although we were well aware from experience in new Guniea being inclusive hiring locals and taking the time to learn their ways. So some skills can be used to some extent in other countries. But naturally each culture is different and so is their needs.

If you think your going in as a self entitled colonizer think again amigos.

In the West Sepik province, PNG. One such prospector gained the trust of the local population as all the land in new guinea is owned by one tribe or another and hugely territorial. And respect must be shown to the local chief because if you deal around him he will lose face. Come negotiations in the longhouse can take time. He set up a dredging operation as 50/50 split with locals he supplied and oversaw the dredging operations with locals who worked for him.

He worked streams that have never seen a prospector. Here is some of his dredges below.





He had 3 dredges with two each scouring deep crevices in the river bed allowing sediment to flow down stream as they worked up stream. The twin units was small portable on each pontoon sharing a single sluice.

Divers could use a snorkel if shallow or an airline hose connected to a compressor attached to each pump if the water hole was deep. Technically 6 pumps pumping river sediment through 3 sluices. The pumps was not environmentally damaging so there was no problem with water quality down stream.



The returns was fantastic to say the least. The problem was not the local people but local provincial government wanted a slice of the pie.







The central government felt they was not getting a cut so while nationals was allow to mine expats are not. Unless they have a negotiated deal in Port Moresby through the department of mining.

Eventually greed and graft from local and national government made the project nonviable. However that was PNG with ever changing loyalties. However regardless the small dredging set up had worked very well.

A set up similar in Peru, Boliva or Euador in the small fast flowing creeks can indeed for keen operator that done his homework and able convince the locals to work as partners in a gold operation could be a viable proposition?

However mine and Crows experience there has been over 20 years ago now so things may of changed?

Kanacki

 

[Crow]

Land ownership is a sensitive political issue in PNG. The indigenous landowners have no concept of the western notion of land as a marketable commodity. The use of mining titles is not understood, and is not readily accepted by landowners. In PNG, land is considered an asset more precious than anything else, to be passed on to future generations. In remote areas, there is no official register of landowners. Land rights are traditional, rather than legally described.


The present PNG mining laws, as they relate to small-scale mining are confusing, and are widely ignored in the field. The unwritten law says that, “The clan which owns the land, mines the land.” It is widely acknowledged that a change in the laws to better provide for landowner mining is long overdue. And, the government Department of Minerals and Energy is presently in the process of drafting new regulations.

I have no doubt there are similar issues in South America and resentment from abuses from the past. When we was in South America resentment seemed more so in Bolivia at the time more than Peru and Ecuador. But I oppose it comes down to a persons experiences. My job was just to drill holes not to reason why just to do or die.

Phil I think you have to decide what you want to be down there. An explorer, miner or treasure hunter? Each have their own set of ethical questions to be answered.

Crow

 

[lilorphanannie]

Excelent advise, wise old crow. Beautiful photos and real life experience to back it up.

 

[BillA]

...... I think you have to decide what you want to be down there. An explorer, miner or treasure hunter? Each have their own set of ethical questions to be answered.

Crow

truer words never written
focus and application will determine one's success
from experience, if one is free there are so many attractive possibilities that one's irons cool, attention wanes - and on to the next

edit: free = not driven by money

 

[Phil]

Phil I think you have to decide what you want to be down there. An explorer, miner or treasure hunter? Each have their own set of ethical questions to be answered.

Hi Crow,

If my theory is correct, and the Incans were working a lode deposit, Paitit is not a "lost city", but rather, a "lost gold mine". If true, treasure hunting and mining are not mutually exclusive because if you find the treasure.......You find the deposit.

 

[BillA]

am far from expert but my reading would suggest a city, probably with mines in the region
am thinking of that French summation
no reason to site a city next to a (placer) mine

 

[BillA]

to fill in the picture a bit, in Costa Rica on the Osa peninsula the rivers and streams were washed up by the Canadians in the '80s who 'bought' exploration licenses for which they used 8" dredges to 30' depth. the locals know every spot over 30', but they can't get to them.
there is a huge disseminated gold deposit up north that the president Arias (Nobel Peace Prize) approved over all objections, 10 years later it is discovered that Arias had been gifted 5% of the stock, now CR owes millions for a canceled project - which thousands of Nicas are trying to pan and tearing up the land

I think mining concessions are most prone to payoffs, which the next generation is sure to protest because they did not get a cut.

not for me

 

[Phil]

Kanacki brought up a great example in PNG that illustrates why it is so important to understand and respect the culture, especially considering their experience with Bougainville. As such, like Kanacki mentioned, if you want to prospect in PNG, you go to the local Chief and negotiate an agreement that is beneficial for both parties. In that environment, honor and respect are the foundation for any agreement, and a miner's word and integrity are everything.

In Canada, the First Nations are highly organized and have a team of attorneys representing their interests. As such, if you want to prospect on their land, a mining company needs to understand their primary concern is protecting the environment, and create a solid plan to ensure your project does not harm the ecosystem in any way, as well as agree to profit sharing.

In both of these examples, there is a clear chain of command and a mining company must respect their culture and submit to their authority if you want to prospect there. For an honorable miner, this is not a problem.

In the context of Peru, you guys have used the phrases "steamroll" and "self entitled colonizer" and I apologize if I gave that impression. If you knew me, you would know I try to live my life in preparation for the day when I kneel before God and my choices in life are judged, so I try to always prioritize relationships with others far ahead of monetary gain. As such, my vision is to find a situation that helps a small community rise above poverty by creating jobs and stability for locals.

With that said, you mentioned the importance of understanding the culture, which is easy when it comes to dealing with individuals. However, negotiations require two parties, and unlike PNG and Canada, there does not appear to be a central authority that represents the indigenous people in Peru. Moreover, in PNG, the common theme is Tribal Chiefs want a fair share of profits. In Canada, the common theme is First Nations want to protect the environment. Yet, in Peru, I still cannot grasp what exactly it is they want. Some claim they oppose large scale mining because it harms the environment, which frankly, is a joke because they stand back and allow illegal miners to destroy the entire ecosystem. I can also see where locals would resent large mining companies because there is no financial incentive for them. Conversely, how would a mining company implement a profit sharing system when there is not an organized tribal structure? Give money to everybody that shows up?

Or plainly stated, when negotiations are done by mob rule, it creates a situation where large mining companies are inclined to "steamroll" over locals to get their projects up and running. Not saying that is right, but it's just a fact.

The other issue is honor. In PNG, you meet the Tribal Chief, look him in the eye, and negotiate in the longhouse where a man's word is everything. In Canada, you meet with council leaders, look them in the eye, come to an agreement, then sit back while the attorneys negotiate the details of the agreement. In both situations, if honorable men have good intentions, an equitable agreement can always be reached if BOTH parties have integrity. I intend no offense, but the fact is, there have been several times where mining companies reached an agreement with local communities, then spent tens of millions of dollars, only for the community to back out of the agreement at the last minute. That is dishonorable, and another reason why large mining companies are inclined to "steamroll" over locals.

Or plainly stated, honor and integrity is a two-way street, and it doesn't matter how immersed somebody is in the local culture if one party has no intention of honoring their part of an agreement.

So........That is my impression. Am I wrong? If so, please educate me.

 

[lilorphanannie]

I think all of what I am reading here is leading some of us to think that these probñems are inevitable. Lets put it into perspective. I have not researched the data, but off the top of my head ,the chances of you having your project shut down is remote. Here in Mexico I know of one project temperarily shut down for contaminating a river used for irrigation and dirnking water. Problem was resolved. So far no one has backed out of their contractual agreement. There were two seperate attacks at gold mines ,that where attempts to steal the refined gold. We are talking about the last twenty years and well over 100 operating mines. In Colombia one mining project was shut down after an agreement was signed that I know of, out of over 40 foreign projects. In Guyana , again only one, and it was a major ecological disaster from a tailings pond ,a major project by a Canadian company. I would need to research Bolivia ,Peru and Ecuador. Yes ,there are situations where companies have not been able to get approval, but this was early on in the exploration process. Other case were shut down due to enviromental damage. The actual cases that come to mind where locals caused a mining project to be halted after getting into production, are less than five, over possibly 500 projects and a 20 year period. I would suggest to on the country and area you choose to work and see what the history has been.

 

[Phil]

LIMA (Reuters) - Protesters in Peru attacked a convoy of vehicles from the Las Bambas mining group, one of Peru’s largest copper producers, and set fire to some of them, underscoring tensions in the country that has been hit hard by the coronavirus pandemic. JULY 21, 2020


LIMA, July 25 (Reuters) - The Peruvian government will re-evaluate its recent decision to grant a construction permit to Southern Copper Corp for its proposed mine Tia Maria at the request of local authorities calling for its annulment, Peru’s president said late on Wednesday. After more than a week of protests against the company and the government in the southern region of Arequipa, President Martin Vizcarra said he would reconsider his government’s recent green light for the proposed $1.4 billion, 120,000-tonnes-per-year copper project. Tia Maria has been stalled for nearly a decade due to opposition from residents of Arequipa who fear it will harm crops or use up local water supplies. The construction license granted earlier this month allowed the environmental permit for the project to remain in force ahead of an Aug. 1 deadline. JULY 25, 2019


SANTIAGO, (Reuters) - Chile’s environmental court on Friday ordered Canada’s Barrick Gold Corp to definitively close the Chilean side of its stalled Pascua-Lama mining project, a final procedural step that draws a line under a long-running saga. OCTOBER 12, 2018