Willie L Douthit

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Welcome sgt

 

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[mdog]

Lol. Another ratio, the one that I am actually concerned with when I hit the reply button in any thread, versus whatever one you just devised, is that of thread posters-to-thread readers, for it is a quite disproportionate relationship. I am talking to quite a few people here in this thread and a couple threads I have started. Further, as far as forums go, some of these threads are like stickies, for they remain active and near the top for years, some gaining tens of thousands of views.

Yet, there is but a small handful of people posting ...

There is more than you, and Mike, UncleMatt and sdcfia, etc., reading and will read this thread. In essence, my posts and a couple threads I have started, are nothing more than a, "Pssst ... hey you. Overhere. All this stuff you are trying to muddle through with these treasure stories, well, I found a flashlight. Let me show ya what you can see with it - if ya want." If you don't want and prefer to respond like that, that is fine by me, for you are but one of many readers and future readers of that post, some of whom will have a different internal response in their minds.

Judy, I guarantee you that with the tens of thousands of views some of these threads get, I, as well as some others, have caused some of those many, many readers to think about things a different way and to view some of this Treasure Legend stuff in a different light - other than the one that has been routinely, seemingly intentionally and methodically, been released at specific intervals in the public domain. And that is done, in large part, to try to help people from spinning their wheels too long on a lot of this stuff and looking in the wrong directions and for the wrong things ...

And with that, I don't have any need to trade jabs with anyone, so I bid all ya'll in this thread adieu.

Springfield used to post about these treasure legends. Usually a big conversation killer. It's easier to concentrate on a small area than it is the larger and more complicated puzzle. The treasure legends draw attention to a specific area and maybe even a specific person or group of individuals.

 

[UncleMatt]

Apophenia can cause both insight and delusion. Pursue the first, avoid the latter.

 

[sdcfia]

Apophenia can cause both insight and delusion. Pursue the first, avoid the latter.

Insight is frequently considered delusional and dealt with accordingly - the farther from the status quo, the harsher the treatment. In the end, the earth is either flat or round, and a lot of smart people went room temperature knowing the former was true.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sdc, the earth is either flat or round,

Oval ?

 

[UncleMatt]

Apophenia is the human experience of seeing patterns and/or connections in random or meaningless data. Some people have normal, healthy levels of apophenia, but others struggle with too much of it, as it leads them down rabbit holes with no exit. Sometimes there simply is no basis in reality for trying to connect one thing with another, even though there is still a human desire or agenda to do so.

 

[sdcfia]

sdc, the earth is either flat or round,

Oval ?

Actually, it's an oblong sphere, but nobody was ever burnt at the stake for that slight correction.

 

[sdcfia]

Apophenia is the human experience of seeing patterns and/or connections in random or meaningless data. Some people have normal, healthy levels of apophenia, but others struggle with too much of it, as it leads them down rabbit holes with no exit. Sometimes there simply is no basis in reality for trying to connect one thing with another, even though there is still a human desire or agenda to do so.

Ironically, the "meaningless data" is apparently the Caballo lore that folks have accepted for the past eighty years as the basis for their treasure searching. If apophenia is one form of mental instability, then what do we call the act of doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results? Insanity, I believe.

 

[UncleMatt]

Where did I say that Caballo lore is "meaningless data"? That isn't what I was referring to.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

sgt: Not yet.

 

[sdcfia]

Where did I say that Caballo lore is "meaningless data"? That isn't what I was referring to.

No, but I was. The Caballo stories are not meaningless in so far as good campfire yarns go, but are they helping the searchers? Perhaps all these argonauts have been using bogus information for the last three or four generations. For example, people have been sitting on the Burbank/Granite/Bat Cave vicinity for many decades and haven't found diddly, even though Willie allegedly could waltz in there whenever he liked and bring out bullion. What gives? Sounds like Willie might have gotten his prize elsewhere. Maybe we need to find out exactly who first provided the Willie stories and why they revealed them. Maybe Willie turned left and told everyone he turned right.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

they 'had' to exist, so someone found one, but who ?

 

[UncleMatt]

But if you are struggling with the fact that all you have to operate from is "yarns", the last thing you want to do is introduce more uncertainty by thinking those "yarns" imply connections to other "yarns". Of course, that is just my opinion.

 

[sdcfia]

But if you are struggling with the fact that all you have to operate from is "yarns", the last thing you want to do is introduce more uncertainty by thinking those "yarns" imply connections to other "yarns". Of course, that is just my opinion.

It's not a struggle for me - it is what it is. If you collect all the versions of the Willie story and compare them, you'll be amazed in what you find, and obviously confused in what to accept, if any of it. The place to start over is obviously back in the 30s with the "source data". There's the challenge. What is the source data? Since we're talking about the Caballos, it would also be instructive trying to source the Pedro Navarez and Padre LaRue legends. I've used the analogy of cops working cold case crimes before. If the caper is possible to solve years later, it's solution is often a surprise. You either accept 80 years of failure or you try to figure out why everyone has failed. But that's just me.

 

[UncleMatt]

And my point remains that considering you don't have sound, verifiable data to draw conclusions from to begin with, you don't then try to introduce more unverified concepts to what you are working to understand. You don't start talking about Knight's Templar, or KGC, or Masons, or ANY other such unproven connections. You work with what you have, you don't start drawing conclusions from other unknowns.

I know, many people enjoy such diversions and distractions, but to me they are an impediment. As much as is possible, I try to approach treasure hunting with a scientific mindset, not a mindset based on what I want to conjure up. No, we don't have the kind of data you frequently find in scientific endeavors, but that doesn't mean you make things worse by making up data, or assuming what you want to think is relevant.

 

[sdcfia]

And my point remains that considering you don't have sound, verifiable data to draw conclusions from to begin with, you don't then try to introduce more unverified concepts to what you are working to understand. You don't start talking about Knight's Templar, or KGC, or Masons, or ANY other such unproven connections. You work with what you have, you don't start drawing conclusions from other unknowns.

I know, many people enjoy such diversions and distractions, but to me they are an impediment. As much as is possible, I try to approach treasure hunting with a scientific mindset, not a mindset based on what I want to conjure up. No, we don't have the kind of data you frequently find in scientific endeavors, but that doesn't mean you make things worse by making up data, or assuming what you want to think is relevant.

Well, we select our own impediments. We know Reynolds, Douthit, Ward and Noss likely acquired gold bullion somewhere in the vicinity of the Caballo Mountains 80 or 90 years ago. That's all we know for certain. We don't know where or how they acquired it except by, as yet, unverified hearsay. You go your way, and I'll go mine.

 

[UncleMatt]

But I'm not selecting any impediments, I merely accept those that already exist, and don't try to add more to that pile. It seems self defeating to add to that pile, unless you are merely entertaining yourself with a game of "what if". Of course we all choose our own approach to treasure hunting, as you say.

 

[Garry]

Odds and Ends

Minnie J Weeks was a partner in some of Larry Foreman’s real estate deals in the 1950s.

Minnie is in the 1930 Los Angeles Census with her husband Thomas Weeks. Thomas is a pipe fitter for an oil refinery and Minnie lists her occupation as a Real Estate Solicitor.

In 1940 Census Minnie is still married but it appears that Thomas has returned to Iowa. Minnie doesn’t list an occupation but she does indicate she has 1 year of high school. She died in 1977.

Thomas and Minnie had two sons and one, Irving Thomas Weeks, who died in 1960, was a Special FBI Agent (Findagrave) Minnie and both of her sons are buried in Forest Lawn Memorial Park Cemetery (Glendale) This is just for the conspiracy guys and girls.

Thoughts: (There doesn't appear to be anything here) Maybe, Minnie’s background in real estate is what drew her and Larry together as she might have been familiar with a lot of the mechanics dealing with real estate.

Judy has previously referenced some of the early history of the Wells Family.

Mary Augusta Wells was a possible descendant of Governor Thomas Wells of Colonial Connecticut (1660) and Mary was also a member of the Daughters of the American Revolution.

There is an application for membership to the Sons of the American Revolution online at Ancestry.com. This application was filed in 1929 and if the information is correct, Mary Augusta Weeks can indeed trace her lineage back to Governor Thomas Wells in Connecticut.

I don’t know for sure who Mary identified as her ancestor, on her DAR membership application. It was probably James Wells 1748-1825 who appears in the SAR application cited above. James was listed as a private in the Connecticut Militia and he was Mary’s Great-Great-Grandfather. I hope I have my Greats correct.

When applying for membership in either the DAR or SAR the applicant does not have to prove all the way back to their ancestral patriot. They can piggyback on earlier applications and only prove back to an ancestor in those earlier applications.

Thoughts: Mary did take pride in the Well’s family history and it did hint at family status and prestige. Mary would be 8 generations removed from the Governor Thomas Wells so any original family wealth would have long ago dissipated. I’ll address her father’s history and possible wealth later.

Judy also hinted at a possible Civil War connection to the Wells family.

I haven’t been able to find anything. Mary’s father was Charles J Wells and he was born about 1857, too young for the Civil War and his father William Wells was born in 1817 and he would have been in his mid 40’s during the war. Unless William was an officer, it is very unlikely that he served in combat. In the 1860 Connecticut Census, William Wells was listed as a Farmer with Real Estate valued at $6,000 and Personal Property Valued at $1,000.

Bavarian Joe wrote in an earlier post

I wonder how he (Willie) became a court clerk, you have to know someone to land that gig.

Can someone shed some light on what the job of Deputy Municipal Court Clerk in Los Angeles would entail (1953)?

Would it be a patronage job? Appointed by elected officials or a judge?

There was a second picture of Laurence Foreman taken during the gum betting marker case. I’m posting it because there is a little more background. It appears Laurence is in a courtroom with the Judge’s bench behind him. Perhaps one of his duties is managing the evidence being presented. I wouldn't think he was testifying?



There is a photo of a younger Willie Douthit on Page 31 of John Clarence's "The Discovery". I have self diagnosed myself with a mild form of face blindness but they look like the same person to me. I know Judy expressed some reservations about the Willie Douthit and Laurence Foreman connection but I think it is solid.

Just an aside; I can’t see a wedding ring on Laurence’s left hand. It doesn't mean anything and is just an observation.

Garry

 

[sdcfia]

<cut> There was a second picture of Laurence Foreman taken during the gum betting marker case. I’m posting it because there is a little more background. It appears Laurence is in a courtroom with the Judge’s bench behind him. Perhaps one of his duties is managing the evidence being presented. I wouldn't think he was testifying?

View attachment 1088378

There is a photo of a younger Willie Douthit on Page 31 of John Clarence's "The Discovery". I have self diagnosed myself with a mild form of face blindness but they look like the same person to me. I know Judy expressed some reservations about the Willie Douthit and Laurence Foreman connection but I think it is solid.

Just an aside; I can’t see a wedding ring on Laurence’s left hand. It doesn't mean anything and is just an observation.

Garry

The book photo on page 31 looks like the same person to me as the two Foreman photos you posted, possibly aged 15 or 20 years. Your two photos have strong provenance. The book photo only has a label.

 

[Garry]

sdcfia,

Good point regarding Clarence's photo of Willie. While John Clarence provides a lot of sources many of the pictures aren't credited, which is a shame. We don't know where the photos of Willie or Buster Ward came from and are left to guess.

Maybe Willie provided both photos during his visit in 1973 or 1989. If so he could have came back pretending to be Willie Douthit.

OK, I thought about it and Willie is still Laurence.

The photo of Buster is before his accident in 1930 and it raises the question about where that photo came from. Why would Willie have it? Heck, it might not even be Buster.

I have tried to do a little research on Richard "Buster" Ward and I haven't been able to get a foothold. Did he live to be an old man or did he die young. I know there are stories but nothing "I" would take to the bank!

Garry

PS. Apparently John Clarence doesn't make the connection between Willie and Laurence in his book. (I don't remember if he did! Why not? It seems at least somewhat relevant.)