Willie L Douthit

[Crow]

I must say well done some amazing stuff been posted I am truly impressed do please continue...

Give ya self's all a good pat on the back...

threads where everyone works together such as these makes Tnet all worth visiting...

Crow

 

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Diving for Pleasure and Treasure - Grab it through Amazon!

[doc-d]

Senor Crow, agreed……fascinating and a lesson in how to research info and the value of working together.

 

[sdcfia]

I forgot to post this one last night. It's the County's 1880 Township Plat. Some of the old topo details might help you find the site. I suggest that anyone wanting to put their boots on the ground to get the USGS quad (section lines should be on it), plot out Lot 1 (NE corner, Section 6), calc the coordinates (UTM is easier, be sure to check map datum), put the coordinates in your GPS and do a "go to" for each corner. That gives you the boundary and the enclosed area to search. [[Added: if you find marked stones at or near the corners, especially the NE corner, don't have a heart attack. Marked stones were used by land surveyors during that time period as legal markers, prior to later metal caps, iron pipes, rebar, etc., and are always left in place.]]

I'd be interested to see if anyone confirms Foreman's estate. If it was as substantial as the rumors say, then it might preclude a ground search of Lot 1, assuming Foreman left nothing there prior to his demise - not necessarily a given. If his large estate can't be proven, then you have a real conundrum. First you have to be convinced he had the gold. Then you have to be convinced he might have buried it on Lot 1. Searching 50 acres of hills like this (a square, 1500 ft each side) would be a challenge - might be a worthwhile high-tech project if you were willing to gamble the cost.

 

[Garry]

Does anybody recognize this guy?



Laurence W. Foreman, Deputy Municipal Court Clerk, Los Angeles (February 19, 1953)

This was almost 10 years after he was working as a baker. He has changed occupations and now he wears a coat and tie to work. He is still working an 8 to 5 job but he presents a little different occupational image.

This photo was associated with a criminal case in which Stella Bennett, 22, had been arrested on a bookmaking charge. It was known as the gum betting marker case. Foreman is holding two sticks of gum used as betting markers.

Somebody will have to explain to me how the sticks of gum are used in bookmaking. Duh!

http://digitallibrary.usc.edu/cdm/ref/collection/p15799coll44/id/115237

Garry

 

[johnmark29020]

Has anyone crossed checked his name at the pattern office. After reading that book. I thought maybe he held a patten.
That book is a little weird,but its no worse than some of the sci-fi movies
Ive seen,and its original.

 

[Bavarian Joe]

Does anybody recognize this guy?

View attachment 1083975

Laurence W. Foreman, Deputy Municipal Court Clerk, Los Angeles (February 19, 1953)

This was almost 10 years after he was working as a baker. He has changed occupations and now he wears a coat and tie to work. He is still working an 8 to 5 job but he presents a little different occupational image.

This photo was associated with a criminal case in which Stella Bennett, 22, had been arrested on a bookmaking charge. It was known as the gum betting marker case. Foreman is holding two sticks of gum used as betting markers.

Somebody will have to explain to me how the sticks of gum are used in bookmaking. Duh!

Garry

Ever play poker for matchsticks? Same idea. You use the sticks of gum as chips, and cash them in later. I wonder how he became a court clerk, you have to know someone to land that gig.

 

[gollum]

SDCFIA,

Dammitt! I wish I had checked this out this morning. I was up Angeles Crest HWY all day today. I hiked out Devil's Canyon, but I passed right by the road that leads near Willie's Property. I will get out there next week. Its a bit of a trek, but I will hoof it.

I don't know if anything was left there, but I still have a few verifications of the story that Willie's Lady Friend made off with $1.5 million in cash from his house after he passed.

Mike

 

[gollum]

Take a camera!

Never leave home without still and video. HAHAHA

Mike

 

[Crow]

Gee what a turn of events Wilie turned out to wee bit more interesting than Doc Noss himself.

Gollum keep ya eyes open when ya out there ya never no what ya find?

Crow

 

[johnmark29020]

SDCFIA,

Dammitt! I wish I had checked this out this morning. I was up Angeles Crest HWY all day today. I hiked out Devil's Canyon, but I passed right by the road that leads near Willie's Property. I will get out there next week. Its a bit of a trek, but I will hoof it.

I don't know if anything was left there, but I still have a few verifications of the story that Willie's Lady Friend made off with $1.5 million in cash from his house after he passed.

Mike

If you run into one of his allen friends. Tell I would like a tour. Hehe
Be safe and have fun.

 

[Garry]

Laurence Foreman's Government Land Activity

Judy,

Nice work uncovering the land deal involving Laurence and Minnie!

Piggybacking off of your find, there were 4 additional land cases involving Laurence W Foreman and US Government land.

From the BLM Site we find two land patents issued to Laurence W Foreman.

BLM Patents

1954 Sep 28 - A Patent was issued to Laurence W Foreman for the described property.

N 1/2 of SW 1/4 of SE 1/4, Section 8, Township 5 North, Range 12 West

SE 1/4 of SW 1/4 of SE 1/4, Section 8, Township 5 North, Range 12 West

Containing in total 30 Acres located in Los Angeles County

Patent Details - BLM GLO Records

1956 Sep 21 - A Patent was issued to Laurence W Foreman for the described property.

SE 1/4 of NW 1/4, Section 1, Township 14 South, Range 2 West

Containing 40 Acres located in San Diego County.

Patent Details - BLM GLO Records

For convenience of having all of the land deals in one place, I’m going to repeat Judy’s link here.

California State Lands Commission

1958 Jul 25 - Laurence W. Foreman and Minnie J. Weeks made an offer to purchase the following vacant federal land.

Lot 1, Section 6, Township 5N, Range 12 West (51,97 Acres) in Los Angeles County

Minnie Weeks relinquished her interest and Larry purchased the property for $7,015.95

http://archives.slc.ca.gov/Meeting_Summaries/1958_Documents/07-25-58/Items/072558C16.pdf

In addition there were two additional cases that involved the California State Lands Commission

1955 Oct 10 – Laurence W. Foreman and Minnie J. Weeks made an offer to purchase the following vacant federal land.

SW 1/4 of NW 1/4, Section 21, Township 5 North, Range 12 West (40 Acres) in Los Angeles County

The purchase price for Laurence and Minnie was $800

http://archives.slc.ca.gov/Meeting_Summaries/1955_Documents/10-10-55/Items/101055C37.pdf

1962 Apr 26 - Laurence W. Foreman made an offer to purchase the following vacant federal land.

SE 1/4 of NE 1/4, Section 11, Township 14 South, Range 2 West (40 Acres) in San Diego County

This transaction was never completed as Laurence did not end up agreeing to the terms set down by the commission but it’s still an interesting document.

Laurence initiated the process by offering $5 an acre or $200. I believe this was the price that the Commission would pay the federal government for title to the property
.
The Commission appraisal established the value of the land at $100,000 ($2,500 per acre). SERIOUS MONEY IN 1962, not bad today!

This may have been much more than Laurence had expected to pay but it doesn’t appear he dismissed the offer out of hand. Three extensions totaling 152 days were granted to Laurence within which to deposit the required funds. Laurence finally backed out.

http://archives.slc.ca.gov/Meeting_Summaries/1962_Documents/04-26-62/Items/042662C13.pdf

Just a personal thought. It seems clear that Laurence was dabbling in California real estate early on. The government land acquisitions may have only been the tip of the iceberg and his real estate activities may well have extended beyond just Government land.

Garry

 

[UncleMatt]

So again we see evidence that Willie was not just a poverty stricken baker's assistant...

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Nice to have a rich wife eh

 

[UncleMatt]

Yes, we need to establish the specifics surrounding his wife's wealth. Did the money come from her, or from Willie's gold?

 

[sdcfia]

SDCFIA,

Dammitt! I wish I had checked this out this morning. I was up Angeles Crest HWY all day today. I hiked out Devil's Canyon, but I passed right by the road that leads near Willie's Property. I will get out there next week. Its a bit of a trek, but I will hoof it.

I don't know if anything was left there, but I still have a few verifications of the story that Willie's Lady Friend made off with $1.5 million in cash from his house after he passed.

Mike

Better budget some more time and bring more food and water, as the 1954 and 1955 purchases add 70 acres to the search area. At least these two pieces are closer to the road, SE of the 51.97 acres.

 

[gollum]

Matt with all famous treasure legends there are always people wants their 15 seconds of fame some how being associated with such stories. Some times its really hard to know a persons motives. Perhaps Willie having been once his old stomping ground may of intentionally associated himself with Doc for notoriety?

I suspect Doc story a similar case like Roxas case in Philippines family and friends and friends or friend became hangers on trying to get on the bandwagon after the main person of the story is dead.

Crow

Crow,

Sorry this is coming so late, but an answer to your earlier statement:

Willie could not have been any kind of straphanger to Doc. Willie's Cave was found in 1928 while Doc didn't find his until 1937. Willie's Story made the papers in 1929 after he was kidnapped. Willie, Buster, and Doc knew each other before any of them had found anything.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

Crow,

Sorry this is coming so late, but an answer to your earlier statement:

Willie could not have been any kind of straphanger to Doc. Willie's Cave was found in 1928 while Doc didn't find his until 1937. Willie's Story made the papers in 1929 after he was kidnapped. Willie, Buster, and Doc knew each other before any of them had found anything.

Mike

Man, that is young - Willie would have been barely 20 when he made his Caballo discovery. "Jack Reynolds", who a few folks say discovered the cave a couple years before Willie and was killed by him, was allegedly even younger. I wonder if Willie and Jack are actually the same guy. Makes you wonder how this (these) young drifters would be able to figure out how to use a sextant and solve the map. The mysterious Mrs. Perrone?

 

[UncleMatt]

Much like major scientific discoveries are made by accident and chance, I imagine its the same with treasures. Willie was young enough to scamper around that area with alacrity I am sure. He may have had a map that made him go out looking in the general area, but probably happened upon the cave by chance. Those who walk around places like that understand you can often be a few feet away from something, or even just have the wrong angle of sight, and you miss things completely. Perhaps where others had walked, he got lucky and saw.

 

[gollum]

The version of the story I have is that Reynolds finding the cave had nothing to do with a sextant. The codes had something to do with Castillian Spanish, and since Mrs Perrone was from Spain, she was familiar with it. She helped Jack figure out the map, then sent him out to do the footwork. That's where he supposedly met Willie.

While there are many stories (Willie told several versions himself), nobody is left alive that knows the absolute truth.

Mike

 

[sdcfia]

The version of the story I have is that Reynolds finding the cave had nothing to do with a sextant. The codes had something to do with Castillian Spanish, and since Mrs Perrone was from Spain, she was familiar with it. She helped Jack figure out the map, then sent him out to do the footwork. That's where he supposedly met Willie.

While there are many stories (Willie told several versions himself), nobody is left alive that knows the absolute truth.

Mike

We have to wonder where all the different versions first surfaced and who told them. It likely wasn't Douthit, Ward or Noss. For example, the sextant angle (no pun intended), the Fort Selden windowsill, the "guerrilla gang", and so on. Who knew about these things? Why would they be discussed by anyone who did know? I wonder if these tales aren't just forerunners of stuff like the William White books, who seems to be making it up as he goes. You're right - we're four or five generations removed from the events, and that's a cold trail. Maybe some tenacious person will run down someone in Douthits or Ward's surviving familes and turn up a posthumous document of some sort that reveals more details. Otherwise, it's a bit of a circular argument.