Why even ask permission ???????????????????

[herb]

Newbie here on permissions..

This is a dicey question for anyone with a conscience who is trying to persue the hobby by the rule of ethics and still not drive him/her self crazy with "property hunting and disclosure permits". There is a good example of this on a new blog i started http://realsimplesolutions.blogspot.com. This was found in a State Park with "verbal permission" to hunt stone walls for coins. Park super asked me not to identify the location until they verify a 1987 State policy on metal detecting on Department of Natural Resources Property. Because this was an "artifact" and was historicaly significant to the park, there really was no question as to my actions..The frame is valuable to a vintage bike restorer and would sell easily on the collectibles market. Still, "Render to Caeser, That which is Caeser's " .

The State, Massachusetts, does allow detecting on beaches and other designated area's under certain conditions and is up to the park or beach supervisor, when or who and where in particular, this is allowed.

I think the question is, had the find been a jar full of 1882 silver dollars, would i have been so quick on the draw to notify the park super knowing the money would be collected from me and never seen again. It's a bunch of coins that the park allows you to hunt, but the 1882 date makes them historically significant ( and valuable).. What would you do.. ?

Once again, i am brand new, wet behind the ears, and willing to learn, compromise and do the right thing .

Started out with a Garrett Ace 250 and found it did not like the surf (had it wrapped in a bag and all nice and dry when a wave came in and scared the crap out of me, electronics did not get wet,but i learned a good lesson) so, bought a Tesoro Sand Shark, and wet suit, had both in the salt water friday for three hours and had one hell of a time in the surf. Found a lot of hot rocks and tabs but no coins or jewelry,. Spent most of the time waist deep at low tide, maybe i was to far out..Anyway, need advice from tiger shark owners on ground balancing and search techniques..Yow, take a breath............
Thanks for your time.. Herb

 

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[George (MN)]

Everyone is assuming this is about private property (only) & it that case permission is a must. But for places like city parks, as long as you don't wreck the place, most cities have no problem with it.

If anyone wants to detect city parks ask the city police not some park & rec bureaucrat who will read the ancient laws that say no digging or disturbing. Those aren't anti-detecting laws, they are laws made before detectors existed. What most cities do, in effect, is grant us an exemption (as long as we don't do damage).

One reason to ask permission from the police for public property is when someone with no authority comes along & tells you you can't detect there, you can tell them the police gave you permission. Lots less scarier than having someone say they'll report you to the police & not knowing if the police will fine you. Detecting is much more relaxing when you don't have to keep looking over your shoulder.

Some cities/counties have park police that don't have arresting powers. So if you call the city police or county sheriffs office & they say you won't get fined unless damage or dangerous hole, you might in this case ignore the park police & just detect anyway. When they try to claim there is a $500 fine but people detect there all the time, it's obvious they're not issuing the fines. But you have to be sure the park police don't have the power to issue fines.

Lots of times there are false rumors of a city that doesn't allow detecting. Reasons: 1 person did damage & was asked to leave ;

1 park has historical status, so people think no detecting in any parks is allowed;

1 park in the city is privately owned & someone gets kicked out, so the rumor goes no detecting in city parks;

1 park in a city is county park that doesn't allow detecting, starting the rumor that city parks detecting isn't allowed;

you're asked to leave because you didn't have a permit-but maybe they don't bother to tell you that anyone can get a free permit.

there may be a few detectorists that find a good place & start a rumor that detecting isn't allowed, so they don't have competition;

police are most likely trained to investigate someone by themselves, so if you wait for a park to be empty & the officer is in a bad mood, you may be questioned & afraid; If you're in a park when many others are, too, the police may have others to deal with or may not want to appear unreasonable to a crowd, so you may safer to detect with people around. Especially if they see you put trash in cans.

just a few ran-dumb thoughts. HH, George (MN)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

George, you advocate asking the police, verses city hall, parks dept, etc..... I don't think that's a good idea, for the same reason I don't think it's good to ask city hall, or anyone else: If you ask any bureaucrat, you risk that they may look it up in their books, and find something they think applies to you (ARPA, or vegetation stuff, etc...) when in fact they may never have paid attention to you otherwise.

Worse yet, they may think they need to make a rule to address this "pressing issue". Better that you treat yourself as someone no different than anyone else in the park using the swing set, drinking from the fountain, etc.... Why do you think your hobby is somehow illegal to begin with? It will just become a self-fullfilling prophesy, the minute you have to ask ...... as if .... something were inherently wrong with you, or your hobby, that you had to ask, to begin with.

I hunt parks in cities across CA all the time with this attitude, and AT MOST, in 30 yrs, I can count on 3 or 4 times the times that some cop or bureaucrat told me to move on. Just say ok and move on. No biggee

One time I got booted by a lady cop in a certain city south of me. She had no particular reason, other than to say "you can't do that here". My friend and I moved on, as we had other places to hit that day. Later, on the internet, I met a person who lived in that particular city, and told him of the encounter. He had to laugh because he hunted that park regularly for the last 5 yrs, at any time of the day or night that he felt like it, and no one ever said "boo" to him. Who knows? maybe I just got a cop having a bad day? But the point is, if I went into their desk, with shovel in hand, asking "may I dig in YOUR park?" what do you think their answer would be?

 

[Zym]

You guys convinced me everyone is gun happy so I'm going to start carrying a gun everywhere I go.

You mean you don't lol, you may be in the minority

I would never shoot someone for trespassing on my property, but I have met a person on my property with my shotgun in hand before. If someone doesn't respect property laws I have no way of knowing what laws they do respect, or what their intention is. Not going to put my or my families life at risk for some schmuck that is somewhere he knows he shouldn't be. I'm not sure where your located at, around here you don't go just walking through someones land with out talking to them.

 

[Tsalagi]

i recently came across a site where an old 1850's hotel and then on the same spot a civil war military barracks
was located. I did a little research located the owners and ask their permission
What i got was a resounding NO due to previous MDers who had hunted without permission and left the land
around the site looking like SHHHHH.
so again another story of someone else ruining it for the whole bunch.

on a side note- i continue to speak with the owner of this land just asking about the history of the place and what
not,in hopes to gain back his trust and respect and undue the sour taste left by the folks who didnt ask.

ASK PERMISSION!

 

[Old Dog]

I have been a Ther longer than I have been a property owner, But There comes a time when a person must make a stand.
My choice was Western Colorado, and there are many people who have tried to cover my place with a MD.
Hey, I get to do that!
There is no hunting or fishing either without permission.
Leave a mess, and never come back. This also makes it tough on the next guy.

Old Dog

 

[Old Dog]

An Adendum...

Always easier to ask permission than to apologise.
Even the Fish and Game makes an appointment to come on my place!

Old Dog

 

[Ima Swinger]

Hey la9, sounds like you knew the right thing to do all along.
I understand where you are coming from when it comes to people jumping to conclusions.
I recently posted the Texas Penal Code for Criminal Trespassing just to get different opinions and interpretations on it, and low and behold, a couple of knuckle heads jumped to the conclusion that I'm some kind of fence jumping, posted sign ignoring ignoramus from Texas. Of course, they couldn't be more wrong if they were left handed (just kidding left handers). The fact is, that no one really knows each other here (unless they actually do know each other), and when reading text instead of hearing a voice it can be difficult to know how to take someone's question or comment. Everyone here seems like good people, so I don't think they'll be shooting you anytime soon.

By the way, my TH'ing buddy (Rudy2003, who I actually know) and I got permission from an Humble city bureaucrat who gave us permission to hunt all Humble city parks. We take very good care of those parks when we visit.

Keep swingin',

Ima Swinger

 

[Old Dog]

La9,

I have a friend who is a chief of police in a small town, he does a lot of MDing.

His favorite thing to do i wait until evening and MD where the city has torn up the old sidewalks.
To his creddit ... a huge Barber coin collection and a 1916 D Mercury dime. Among a lot of junk and odd jewelry he has tried to return to the original owners.

Cities generaly don't have problems with MDers, ... State and Fed burocrats who feel the need to push hard working people arround will contest your claim to what you find tho.

Just know where you are and who has jurisdiction over the place. And learn when to keep your mouth shut about it.

Fewer Heartaches,
Old Dog

 

[Tom_in_CA]

old-dog, I hunt oldtown sidewalk demolitions anytime I run across one. I never ask permission. I can only imagine the head-ache it would cause to try to "ask". The contractor would probably say no, d/t he doesn't want to be responsible for you, and the city would probably have to run it by their legal department, and bring it up at their next council meeting for a vote. In the meantime, the project would be cemented over. Instead I just go past the "sidewalk closed" sign, lift up the yellow tape and go to it! Yup, in full view of heavy street traffic, people going in and out of stores, etc.... After 5pm when the workers cut out is a magical time

A few years ago I got lots of barbers and seateds from a sidewalk project in Hollister, CA. Here's the link to an article the paper in that town did on it:

 

[Old Dog]

Tom,

Keep it up !

Making good relations for the rest of us too.
Good Job.

I simply can't say about some finds, all of us have a find or two ...not to talk about.
But about the coins, each one is special no matter the date or mm. Some amount to no more than junk to a serious coin collector. but they are a whole different can of worms when you find them yourself.

Old Dog

 

[Stargeezer]

As for being ok to shoot someone for trespassing. You or I may not think so, but if you live in rural Arizona or NM or Texas, or maybe even in So Cal, and someone was wandering about on your hard-earned property, approaching him without a gun may be dangerous. Landowners have a right to protect themselves, too. That's a right that a court just reinstated to the citizens of DC, where they had not been permitted to own firearms for many yrs. Of course, the bad guys owned them, but the law-abiding did not. Out there in the deserts of the SW, if the body isn't found, how could there have been a crime committed? Just speculation, of course.

 

[Ray S ECenFL]

Hope you never have to remembe this saying:

Yes your Honor, guilty as charged.

or this one:

Officer, could you possibly loosen these hand cuffs, the are a little tight

Just someting to think about.

 

[Old Dog]

Stargeeser,
Out here in rural Western Colorado they still shoot each other over water. Treaspassing is a given.

The law is pretty strict out here... Keep your dog on your property, if he comes on mine I can shoot him. That goes for your horse too. We build strong fences out here.

Old Dog

 

[Seamuss]

Doesn't the saying go

"It's always OK until someone tells you no"

There is a pit bull with aids in the front yard and a rottweiler in the back yard with rabies and an angry combat veteran in the house with an itchy trigger finger.

Permission, I don't need no permission, I don't need to show you no stinking permission.

Any questions about getting permission?

You ARE a spokesman for your hobby when in public or on privite property. Why risk new laws because you didn't want to ask permission or didn't want to bother the land own?

 

[ivan salis]

or the other famous saying --- shoot (tresspassers ) first and ask questions (why are you on MY land ?) later .
some home / land owners are very very overly protective of "their" land -- some own guns --some shoot folks.

sidewalks are general deemed to be public land --- during tear out / replacement "offically" they could be thought of as a "construction site" thus off limits in most places. -- but I'd try to hunt em --unless told otherwise.

 

[thepoolguy]

i would never suggest tresspassing......its just not right...BUT when someone wants to hunt our land for game i allways tell them NO....BUT i dont police it kicking people off either. what im telling them is go ahead and hunt but i didnt give you permission as i dont want the liability. most take it as a no but i know of some that have asked and figured out what i meant and hunt our property all the time. just another twist to throw in here. and one other tidbit....IS THERE SUCH A THING AS A NO TRESSPASSING SIGN TO A WAR VETERAN? my grandfather allways said they could go were ever they wanted as we would have never had the land without them. just another twist for ya all. but again im not nor will i ever disrespect someones property. dave

 

[Gettintoknowsomethin]

 

[rig runner09]

I AGREE WITH <PAPA> happy hunting.

 

[soopacee]

i dont think he meant peoples yards