When Ordinary Science Fails to Explain

[hung]

I would appreciate if the posts could be relevant and related to the discussion topic of this thread.
Thanks in advance.

Dr. Russel Targ is a well known physicist who has received NASA awards for his inventions in laser technology and laser comunications.

Harold Puthoff is also a well known physicist in gravitational physics, and has published two very important papers on Polarized Vacuum and Stochastic Electrodynamics which could serve as alternative aproaches to fill the 'holes' in general relativity and quantum mechanics. He also has published books on quantum electronics.

These two remarkable scientists were recruited in the early 70's by the US Military and CIA to conduct and become part of a team project that would last 23 years.
This project involved all kinds of research and scientific experiments aimed to understand the physics behind the psychic abilities on humans. This sector was part of the famous Remote Sensing program that the US Government started decades ago.

I have already posted that the former Soviet Union was much ahead in psychotronics in late 60's and the US started a program in an attempt to catch up with the russians.
The project that had Puthoff as Director was funded by the CIA and took place at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI International).
Four psychics were investigated in the experiments. Uri Geller, Ingo Swann (who also worked as a researcher), Pat Price and Joe McMoneagle.

 

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[hung]

The footage you people are about to see features Uri Geller. It's a little over 30 minutes long and it's worth every minute of it.
It's part of a complete documented set of videos shot at the time and have been remained classified and secret for many years coming from the vault of CIA.
Also in the footage, you will spot Dr. Edgard Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, who took part in the research as well.
Here is what he said:

“I was in Scientific laboratories at Stanford Research Institute investigating a rather amazing individual Uri Geller. Uri’s ability to perform amazing feats of mental wizardry is known the world over. We in Science are just now catching up and understanding what you can do with exercise and proper practice.Uri is Not a magician. He is using capabilities that we all have and can develop with exercise and practice. After the Geller work, I was asked to brief the director of the CIA, Ambassador George Bush (Later to become President of the United States), on our activities and the results.”

This footage is stated to belong to Dr. Targ's private files and has been recently released.
You will have the opportunity to watch all the evidence that supports my claims one by one, starting by claim #3.
Images are worth a thousand words.

As I said, this footage is part of a series of documented videos shot at that time. It's unkown if all videos will ever be made public.

After watching the films you will also understand why the government uses the term 'secret' in many of his scientific research and discoveries.
I have already talked about that, remember?
Imagine how many physics principles would be turned obsolete, would need a revision, would be discarded and the number of books that would require to be rewritten?

Are you kidding me? Leave me alone and don't piss me off!

 

[hung]

“We in Science are just now catching up and understanding what you can do with exercise and proper practice. Uri is not a magician. He is using capabilities that we all have and can develop with exercise and practice. “
-Dr. Edgard Mitchell-

WARNING TO SKEPTICS

What you are about to watch is not a magician's show or theatrics of any kind. There are no computer graphic tricks as this is 1972. All phenomena appearing in the images are factual and were not staged, falsified or pretended. They are real and the Government of the United States who produced the footage, has also researched the scientific explanations.

So, please keep your BS and retarded jokes to other threads where the skeptic show is still going on.
I will not coment BS posts and will keep on ignore the members here who happen to promote it and are notorious for this.

This thread is intended for a scientific discussion. If you do not have anything to add or contribute, please stay out of it and do not post. If you join, try to keep discussions relevant to the topic and high level.
Thanks.

 

[EE THr]

Personally, I have no reason to believe that this stuff is not possible. Also I have no reason to belive that Uri did not do the things shown in the video.

However, just because the films were made by the U.S. Government is certainly no reason to believe that they are not faked, either!

Ultimately, the question arises, that since it is all shown to be done without the aid of any other devises, how could that possibly relate to promoting the idea that electronics influences these alleged abilities, to somehow produce or enhance Long Range Location?

Also, all of the things shown, occur at extremely short range, and sometimes actually touching the objects.

It's interesting that they mentioned "dowsing," too.

...Just sayin'....

 

[hung]

As you said, you made the claim and claim to be able to back it up. So, back it up.

I did.
Now post your rebuttal as you said, Dr. Rudy.

 

[EE THr]

Seeing as it was originally a government film, in addition to my comment about it not necessarily being valid just because of who commissioned the study, I will expand on that comment.

During the Cold War, the nuclear weapons were supposedly not built for the purpose of blowing anybody up. Rather, they were built as deterrants. The idea being that if the Soviets knew that we had certain advantages, they would not press matters very much.

The same could be possible for psychic ability programs. If they (or we) thought the other side could do certain "special" things, it could be seen as deterrant, to one degree or another.

The film is not a "communication of data" type of inter-governmental documentation. The parts where they tell of the less than double-blind, and less-than scientific, conditions is a type of PsyOp tactic, where the teller of the story admits to some fault in the story, just to make the listener think he is being honest. In the case of this video, the communication of the data, with hits and misses, under strict scientific conditions, is all that would be of importance. Any anecdotal stories would be left out, because it is unnecessary, and only confuses the issue.

However, in some kind of promotional film, meant to be convincing, things like reporting the non-optimal conditions gives the viewer the impression that the testers are so honest that they "tell on themselves." This type of "convincing" additions are only done for PsyOp purposes, to promote an idea or concept, and to get others to believe it.

Would they be trying to convince the Soviets? Or other agencies of our own government? Or the public? Who know?

But it is absolutely not a "Scientific Documentation Movie."

But that doesn't mean that Uri didn't do those things, either.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE~

Quote

Seeing as it was originally a government film, in addition to my comment about it not necessarily being valid just because of who commissioned the study, I will expand on that comment.

During the Cold War, the nuclear weapons were supposedly not built for the purpose of blowing anybody up. Rather, they were built as deterrants. The idea being that if the Soviets knew that we had certain advantages, they would not press matters very much.

The same could be possible for psychic ability programs. If they (or we) thought the other side could do certain "special" things, it could be seen as deterrant, to one degree or another.

The film is not a "communication of data" type of inter-governmental documentation. The parts where they tell of the less than double-blind, and less-than scientific, conditions is a type of PsyOp tactic, where the teller of the story admits to some fault in the story, just to make the listener think he is being honest. In the case of this video, the communication of the data, with hits and misses, under strict scientific conditions, is all that would be of importance. Any anecdotal stories would be left out, because it is unnecessary, and only confuses the issue.

However, in some kind of promotional film, meant to be convincing, things like reporting the non-optimal conditions gives the viewer the impression that the testers are so honest that they "tell on themselves." This type of "convincing" additions are only done for PsyOp purposes, to promote an idea or concept, and to get others to believe it.

Would they be trying to convince the Soviets? Or other agencies of our own government? Or the public? Who know?

But it is absolutely not a "Scientific Documentation Movie."

But that doesn't mean that Uri didn't do those things, either

Hey hung..Did you notice the long post when the last sentence is the only one that means squat….but of course they have to put the blame on someone..Art

 

[EE THr]

~EE~

Quote

Seeing as it was originally a government film, in addition to my comment about it not necessarily being valid just because of who commissioned the study, I will expand on that comment.

During the Cold War, the nuclear weapons were supposedly not built for the purpose of blowing anybody up. Rather, they were built as deterrants. The idea being that if the Soviets knew that we had certain advantages, they would not press matters very much.

The same could be possible for psychic ability programs. If they (or we) thought the other side could do certain "special" things, it could be seen as deterrant, to one degree or another.

The film is not a "communication of data" type of inter-governmental documentation. The parts where they tell of the less than double-blind, and less-than scientific, conditions is a type of PsyOp tactic, where the teller of the story admits to some fault in the story, just to make the listener think he is being honest. In the case of this video, the communication of the data, with hits and misses, under strict scientific conditions, is all that would be of importance. Any anecdotal stories would be left out, because it is unnecessary, and only confuses the issue.

However, in some kind of promotional film, meant to be convincing, things like reporting the non-optimal conditions gives the viewer the impression that the testers are so honest that they "tell on themselves." This type of "convincing" additions are only done for PsyOp purposes, to promote an idea or concept, and to get others to believe it.

Would they be trying to convince the Soviets? Or other agencies of our own government? Or the public? Who know?

But it is absolutely not a "Scientific Documentation Movie."

But that doesn't mean that Uri didn't do those things, either

Hey hung..Did you notice the long post when the last sentence is the only one that means squat….but of course they have to put the blame on someone..Art

Does hung-up need a little reading helper now?

That kind of stuff is what PMs are for, artie.

Oh yeah, I forgot, you use that stuff in a lame attempt to elicit an emotional response, and thus draw the discussion off-topic, so you can again start promoting your fraudulent LRL junk.

Is your real name, "con-artie"? At last, it all makes sense!






Don't be a doof---show the proof!
P.S. When will you man-up and take Carl's double-blind test, and collect the $25,000.00?
ref: Are LRLs More Than Just Dowsing?

 

[Rudy(CA)]

The footage you people are about to see features Uri Geller. It's a little over 30 minutes long and it's worth every minute of it.
It's part of a complete documented set of videos shot at the time and have been remained classified and secret for many years coming from the vault of CIA.
Also in the footage, you will spot Dr. Edgard Mitchell, Apollo 14 astronaut, who took part in the research as well.
Here is what he said:

“I was in Scientific laboratories at Stanford Research Institute investigating a rather amazing individual Uri Geller. Uri’s ability to perform amazing feats of mental wizardry is known the world over. We in Science are just now catching up and understanding what you can do with exercise and proper practice.Uri is Not a magician. He is using capabilities that we all have and can develop with exercise and practice. After the Geller work, I was asked to brief the director of the CIA, Ambassador George Bush (Later to become President of the United States), on our activities and the results.”

This footage is stated to belong to Dr. Targ's private files and has been recently released.
You will have the opportunity to watch all the evidence that supports my claims one by one, starting by claim #3.
Images are worth a thousand words.

As I said, this footage is part of a series of documented videos shot at that time. It's unkown if all videos will ever be made public.

After watching the films you will also understand why the government uses the term 'secret' in many of his scientific research and discoveries.
I have already talked about that, remember?
Imagine how many physics principles would be turned obsolete, would need a revision, would be discarded and the number of books that would require to be rewritten?

Are you kidding me? Leave me alone and don't piss me off!

BTW Dr. Hung, You can read Dr. Puthoff's & Dr. Targ's report here. http://www.remoteviewed.com/files/urisri.pdf

It would even be of benefit for Art to read it as it offers an understanding of how to do double blind tests.

(from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Geller) Geller's career as an entertainer has spanned almost four decades, with television shows and appearances in many countries. Geller used to call his abilities "psychic," but now prefers to refer to himself as a "mystifier" and entertainer.
Geller has claimed his feats are the result of paranormal powers given to him by extraterrestrials. In 1975, two scientists (Russell Targ and Harold Puthoff from the Stanford Research Institute) said they were convinced that Geller's demonstrations were genuine. Since that time, however, notable scientists, various magicians, and skeptics have suggested possible ways in which Geller could have tricked the scientists using misdirection techniques.

In another notable instance, in 1992, Geller was asked to investigate the kidnapping of Hungarian model Helga Farkas; after he predicted she would be found alive and in good health, she was found to have been murdered by her kidnappers.

A quotation from the November 2007 issue of the magazine Magische Welt (Magic World) in which Geller said: "I'll no longer say that I have supernatural powers. I am an entertainer. I want to do a good show. My entire character has changed."

Dr. Richard Kammann, who published a description of how Geller could have cheated in an informal test of his so-called psychic powers in 1977. Their 1978 article in Nature and 1980 book The Psychology of the Psychic (2nd ed. 2000) described how a normal explanation was possible for Geller's alleged powers of telepathy. Marks and Kammann found evidence that while at SRI Geller was allowed to peek through a hole in the laboratory wall separating Geller from the drawings he was being invited to reproduce. The drawings he was asked to reproduce were placed on a wall opposite the peep hole which the investigators Targ and Puthoff had stuffed with cotton gauze. In addition to this error, the investigators had also allowed Geller access to a two-way intercom enabling Geller to listen to the investigators' conversation during the time when they were choosing and/or displaying the target drawings. These basic errors indicate the high importance of ensuring that psychologists, magicians or other people with an in-depth knowledge of perception, who are trained in methods for blocking sensory cues, be present during the testing of psychics.


Here are some interesting tid bits to read about Mr. Geller. Dr. Hung, I think you should read them yourself. They can all be found
here http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/index.htm Things like:

Jerusalem Post - 5th October 1970 TELEPATHIST GELLER TERMED A FRAUD
Uri Geller, a performer who has won a wide following as the possessor of "strong telepathic powers", was last night termed a fraud by four Jerusalem computer unit employees. ...

Jerusalem Post - 5th January 1971 LEDGERDERMAIN RULED BREACH OF CONTRACT
Beersheba - The Magistrate's Court here yesterday upheld charges that Uri Geller, the self-proclaimed telepathist, was guilty of breach of contract in that he promised to perform feats of telepathy, parapsychology, hypnotism and telekinesis, while in fact he merely employed sleight-of-hand and stage tricks.

With regards to the experiments run on Mr. Geller by Dr. Puthoff & Dr. Targ, the following article which appeared in Times magazine on 12 March 1973 proves of some interest. http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944639-1,00.html I'll just abstract a few pertinent paragraphs. Feel free to read the whole article.

... News of the unusual activity at Menlo Park reached the Department of Defense, and investigators were soon on the scene. One of them was Ray Hyman, a psychology professor from the University of Oregon who is used frequently by DOD as a consultant. Another was George Lawrence, DOD projects manager for the Advanced Research Projects Agency (ARPA). He was accompanied to SRI by Robert Van de Castle, a University of Virginia psychologist and longtime researcher in parapsychology. Van de Castle decided that Geller was "an interesting subject for further study," but neither Lawrence nor Hyman was impressed. After spending a day with Geller and Physicists Targ and Puthoff, Hyman was, in fact, incredulous.

As Geller demonstrated ESP and psychokinesis (ability to move or bend objects without touching them) to the delight and excitement of Targ and Puthoff, Hyman said that he was able to spot the "loopholes and inconclusiveness" of each feat. He also caught Geller in some outright deceptions that Targ and Puthoff apparently did not discern.

In one case, Geller asked Lawrence to think of a number between one and ten and to write it down, as large as possible, on a pad. While Lawrence wrote, Geller made a show of concentrating and covering his eyes with his hands. But Hyman, carefully observing Geller, noticed that the Israeli's open eyes were visible through his fingers. Thus Geller was probably able to see the motion of Lawrence's arm as he wrote, and to correctly identify the number, ten. Knowing how to read arm movements, Hyman notes, is important to every magician.

Later, Geller caused a nearby compass needle to turn about five degrees. Lawrence, noting that Geller had moved his body and vibrated the floor, did the same, causing the needle to deflect even more. Geller, startled, accused Lawrence of using trickery, and Targ insisted on examining the DOD man to see if he had magnets hidden in his clothing. (He did not.) Hyman notes that Targ did not feel that it was necessary to search Geller. Hyman's impressions were admittedly based on observations made on a day when normal testing routine was not in effect. Nevertheless, Hyman wrote in a letter to a friend, SRl's tests of Geller were performed with "incredible sloppiness"; the records from previous days, which Targ and Puthoff offered as proof of Geller's powers, were "the most uncontrolled and poorly recorded data I have ever encountered." ...

It is getting late so I'll end it with this article http://www.zem.demon.co.uk/nzrh.htm
When psychic Uri geller first burst into the news, in 1973, a naive America was ripe for the plucking. With consummate showmanship, and leaving a trail of bent and broken silverware behind him, he travelled across the country, making followers - and fools - out of mighty institutions and prominent personalities. Geller convinced executives and researchers at the Stanford Research Institute (SRI), one of the nation's most distinguished "think tanks", that he could read minds, fortell events, and, with sheer psychic energy, distort magnetic fields, streams of electrons, and solid metallic objects. He convinced Apollo-14 astronaut Ed Mitchell to help finance the research at SRI and persuaded Gerald Fineberg, a well-known physicist, into sponsoring a Columbia University colloquium featuring an amateurish SRI film that "documented" Geller's miracles. Even Nature magazine, the world's most prestigious science journal, published a detailed SRI report on Geller's remarkable talents, thus endowing Uri with an aura of respectability that an accompanying editorial disclaimer did little to diminish. The New York Times, Newsweek, network commentators including Barbara Walters, and a host of other journalists, treated Geller seriously and even with awe.
Concealed Past

They certainly would not have done so had they known of his background, and Geller is very careful to make sure that they don't.
In Israel today, however, his friends, his relatives, his girl friends and his managers and all others who worked with him are ready to swear by all that is dear to them that Geller is a cheat and a liar; and they are able to demonstrate with their own hands all of his tricks that he used in order to create his reputation. According to them, Geller learned personal data - special obscure details and information about individulas (both true and false) - which he used to support his claims to special poweres of divination. ....

 

[hung]

Pathetic.

This is the only word I can think of now to best describe your 'temptative' of rebuttal.
If you really know science other than research on the internet and being an enthusiast in high school, you should know basic laws of magnetism up to maxwell equations and current view of it.
You have not provided any. Instead you provided a bunch of babble boring newspaper thing.

You saw the images for yourself. I'm not interested in what people might think or not of Uri Geller. I'm not even interested in Uri Geller himself. I'm talking about the physical phenomena inherent to the human beings in which Geller seems to poccess it in a higher or lower degree depending on the actor of events he is subjected to be compared to.
There are thousands of Uri Gellers in the world doing what he does and beyond. I personally know 3 of them.
The phenomena produced is real and inherent in a higher degree to 'special' people in the world as Geller, Miroslaw Magola and many others more or less known.

Bottom line is... You FAILED miserably in backing up your rebuttal. A scientific rebuttal is made by building a counterargument according to the laws of physics in an organized way. You have not done that. Instead you chose to attack the experimenter, central human figure of the experiments.
The images are clear. He produces a magnetic field able to move the compass needle, he affetcs a magnetometer with this real magnetic field and projects and receives thought forms to and from other human beings.
This is all documented.

NOW POST YOUR REBUTTAL SCIENTIFICALLY EXPLAINING HOW THIS IS NOT POSSIBLE.

Because if you don't. You have lied in stating that you could do it and cannot refute my claim.

 

[aarthrj3811]

~SWR~~

They already did. And did a good job of doing it, might I add.

It is always strange that the skeptics always agree when it comes to hearsay proof..Art

 

[Rudy(CA)]

Pathetic.

Yep, that is the word that would apply to an individual naive enough to actually accept that video as some kind of proof.

If you really know science other than research on the internet and being an enthusiast in high school, you should know basic laws of magnetism up to maxwell equations and current view of it.

Pray tell Dr. Hung, where do you do your research to come up with the video and some of the other whacky, discredited pseudo science
claptrap you frequently post? Isn't it the internet as well?

Having a EE degree and a minor in physics, I am quite familiar with the basic laws of magnetism and Maxwell's equations. I have also heard before
about your flaky "current views" of them, shared by you and some pseudo scientists that you have dug up while doing research on the internet.

There are thousands of Uri Gellers in the world doing what he does and beyond. I personally know 3 of them.
The phenomena produced is real and inherent in a higher degree to 'special' people in the world as Geller, Miroslaw Magola and many others more or less known.

I see, you still believe the phenomenon to be real even though one of your heroes is a known fake. Can you spell "gullible"?

Bottom line is... You FAILED miserably in backing up your rebuttal. A scientific rebuttal is made by building a counterargument according to the laws of physics in an organized way. You have not done that. Instead you chose to attack the experimenter, central human figure of the experiments.

I simply do not take the video at face value and extrapolate from there. That is something a true scientist would not do. Instead, I would state that YOU DR HUNG, have failed miserably in assuring yourself, beyond reasonable doubt, that your beliefs are based on good, irreproachable scientific evidence.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Morning Rudy I need that this morning. you posted -->
good, irreproachable scientific evidence
**************
what is 'irrepproachable science'? Every phase of it is now being revamped and questioned.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,944639-1,00.html
http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,389749.200.html
And your proof comes from Magazines and Newspaper Reporters..Art

 

[hung]

Impressive. Still cannot objectively answer it.

Lots of words and nothing concrete. You mix the babble so much that it's really hard to know what is what.
The only thing that seems clear is that you have a degree in EE. Good to know, then your answers should be expected a little above layman's terms and will easily answer my question about the cell phone in the other thread.

Now objectively speaking.
It's obvious that you have no experience on this kind of research as you have never been involved in nothing similar.
However, I have been involved in scientific projects of this and other kinds. But do not take my word for granted. We have the work and assays of Dr. Targ and Dr. Puthoff, two laureate physicists with inumerous contributions to the scientific comunity. They seem to have acomplished a 'little' more contributions than you and me, don't you think?
They were the scientists chosen by the government for the project and after years of research with extensive double blind tests, experiments and reports, they concluded that the phenomena inherent not only to Uri Geller (but other selected psychics and many people) are real.

Now Dr. Rudy, you claim that he is a hoax even calling someone 'gullible' if he claims that Geller's abilities are genuine right?
Are you saying that both physicists with notorious experience in scientific experiments are 'gullible' and have been tricked by Uri Geller?
Well... Let's see how far this will go..

Please Dr. Rudy, post your scientific counterargument here for once and for all that proves that it's not possible that the magnetic field Geller produced with his hands did not move the magnetic compass needle and it's a trick.
Is it too hard for you to provide this, Dr. Rudy??

 

[aarthrj3811]

http://www.skepticalinvestigations.org/exam/Dace_amazing3.htm
So it’s ironic that actual science was hardly touched on. Instead it was one speaker after another reinforcing the conceit, almost universal among conference participants, that they are the enlightened ones, that they are charged with the burden of defending sense against nonsense, that they alone can be counted on to stand their ground against the tide of irrationalism that threatens to engulf our civilization and undo all the gains that have been wrought in the name of Science. Even scientists themselves, it turns out, are no match for the diabolical paranormalists. Only skeptics, educated by James “Amazing” Randi and other magicians, are capable of spotting the tricks of the trade. “Scientists are easily fooled,” explained Randi, “because they think they know.” But only skeptics really know.

 

[EE THr]

Please Dr. Rudy, post your scientific counterargument here for once and for all that proves that it's not possible that the magnetic field Geller produced with his hands did not move the magnetic compass needle and it's a trick.

Since it is impossible to prove a negative, when someone tries to prove their own claims by demanding that another prove the negative, it is an admission that one's claims, themselves, have not and cannot be proven.

You just disproved yourself, Mr. Pseudoscience!







Don't be a doof---show the proof!
P.S. When will you man-up and take Carl's double-blind test, and collect the $25,000.00?
ref: Are LRLs More Than Just Dowsing?[/

 

[aarthrj3811]

Since it is impossible to prove a negative, when someone tries to prove their own claims by demanding that another prove the negative, it is an admission that one's claims, themselves, have not and cannot be proven.

When you have a product with 30 year track record and someone tells you that it does not work and that they are all fraudulent it is up to them to prove their statements. That is the negative position as ours is positive. If you tell us that the Golden Gate bridge has fallen it sure as heck would not be our responsibility to prove that you are wrong..Art

 

[EE THr]

Since it is impossible to prove a negative, when someone tries to prove their own claims by demanding that another prove the negative, it is an admission that one's claims, themselves, have not and cannot be proven.

When you have a product with 30 year track record and someone tells you that it does not work and that they are all fraudulent it is up to them to prove their statements. That is the negative position as ours is positive. If you tell us that the Golden Gate bridge has fallen it sure as heck would not be our responsibility to prove that you are wrong..Art

The problem with your example is that your device has a 30 year track record of being a scam!



Don't be a doof---show the proof!
P.S. When will you man-up and take Carl's double-blind test, and collect the $25,000.00?
ref: Are LRLs More Than Just Dowsing?

 

[aarthrj3811]

The problem with your example is that your device has a 30 year track record of being a scam!

So where is the proof of them being a Scam ? In 30 years of operations their must be a whole bunch of manufactures in jail for these scams…Please provide us with list of the cionvictions..Art