What have we found? An old statue?

[nickandanna]

Hi everyone,
Please help us in identifying this little statue we found on a remote beach in Hilton Head Island, SC. We were just digging in some wet clay, sand, when we unearthed this little girl figurine. It is about 3 inches tall and 2 inches wide and made out of either some kind of stone or clay. The only identifying marks on it are the carved out body parts. We also found an idian arrowhead on this same very beach a year ago, but we don't know if this statue is also an indian artifact or not. Please help us in identifying this statue and and help us try to figure out what time period it came from.
Thank you,
Nick and Anna

 

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[Bigcypresshunter]

Heres something about a shipwreck.
http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/2011/01/10/civil-war-era-shipwreck-emerges-from-beach/

It doesnt sink down past the coral rock.


Indian camp http://www.ablogabouthistory.com/20...sland-the-4000-year-old-native-american-camp/

 

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[SODABOTTLEBOB]

nickandanna ~

Even though I have posted numerous examples of stone artifacts from South America and Mexico, it has been extremely difficult for me to ascertain exactly who influenced who regarding the similarities between the imagery. But it strikes me as more than just coincidence that so many different cultures from so many different time periods would use the same or similar style. Should it turn out that your particular effigy did originate among Native American peoples along the eastern seaboard, how do we explain the similarily looking examples from Centeral and South America? No doubt there is a connection of some kind, but what that connection might be is definitely a mystery to me.

By the way, I researched the term "Effigy" and discovered it has multiple meanings. Typically, but not always, it refers to a "human likeness." But it can also mean the likeness of an animal - plant - and/or just about anything. Most interesting of all was when I discovered that when it refers to a human, more often than not it pertains to someone who is "disliked," "ridiculed," or "scorned." In one reference there was even a connection to someone being hanged. Which I thought was totally weird! Suggesting there must have been a whole lot of disliked people back in the pre-columbian era. Lol

SBB

 

[High Plains Digger]

SBB--From some of the CASUAL reading I have done, there was quite the trading system from Mex to however far north, especially by the rivers, but probably coastal also. I understand that there was some kind of symbol (like a wampum belt) that allowed the traders somewhat of a "get out of jail" free passage, since everyone benefitted from his travels. I don't know that I would trust the Azetcs too much. Could find yourself on the top of the temple about to have your heart ripped out on someone's whim.

 

[Breezie]

Nick & Anna, any word from the University? Breezie

 

[trikikiwi]

I'm enjoying the topic and also the varying opinions on the origins of the effigy.

I am no expert but, I find it hard to imagine the 'conquering conquistadors' , or anyone else for that matter, in those times, to consider such an effigy as ' treasure' , worthy of being shipped back home.

Unless there was an anthropologist involved, why would any European have an interest in a primitive clay (or what? ) figurine, when they could fill the same space with some Gold or Silver.

I do think the most reasonable reason for where the object was found is, because it was made locally.
Just my thoughts.

Cheers, Mike

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

trikikiwi ~

That's an interesting point you make, and one that crossed my mind as well as to why anyone would want to pack around a lot of old stone carvings? That is until I did some additional research and came across numerous references such as this ...

~ * ~

"Of the hundreds of Spanish colonial shipwrecks from the sixteenth through the eighteenth centuries, only a few were "treasure ships" containing a significant number of items of numismatic value. These "treasure ships" were making their return journey to Spain filled with gold, silver, coins, jewels and products from the new world."

~ * ~

I was also surprised to discover how much trade was taking place between the new colonies along the eastern coast of America and other parts of the world, including Mexico and South America. There was even a time when freshly minted Spanish coins had more value than American coinage. So it wouldn't surprise me one bit to discover that our little effigy came from South America or Mexico. People were just as curious back then as they are today about ancient cultures and their various art forms. Granted, the little effigy may not have been worth much, but still something that would have been of interest to someone.

Here's a link to just one of many such websites if you would like to read more about it ...

http://www.coins.nd.edu/ColCoin/ColCoinIntros/Sp-Gold.Shipwrecks.html


( Be sure to click around where the arrows point to more discussions )

~ * ~

Please note: I am not saying the effigy is definitely from a Mayan or Aztec culture, as I am no expert myself in that field and cannot say for certain. But based on the extensive research I have done (not all posted) there is ample evidence in my opinion to indicate that it certainly could have originated there.

Best regards,

SBB

[ From sunken ship and also considered "treasure" by some ]

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

This is for those, like myself, who are especially interested in South Carolina native cultures and their various artifacts. It is also to show that I am being totally open minded regarding the possibility of the effigy being that of "local origin." This will get you started regarding some of the more well known mound sites. But there are numerous others worth "researching."

SBB

http://ibsgwatch.imagedjinn.com/learn/southcarolina.htm

South Carolina:

Adamson Mounds Site
Auld Mound
Big Lake Cattle Mound
Blair Mound
Brady's Cattle Mound
Cattle Mound #6
Cook's Lake Cattle Mound
Cooner's Cattle Mound
Dead River Cattle Mound
Hanckel Mound
Lawton Mounds
McCollum Mound
Santee Indian Mound and Fort Watson
Sewee Mound

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

Speaking of research, the following should keep us busy until we hear from someone who knows more about this stuff than I do. Especially the first link, which is a 400 page document written in 1910 and contains more than 4,000 different "Stone Age Native American" objects. But please be forewarned, this particular document is not for those who have little patience. Although extensive, it is the type of document that is extremely slow loading and scrolls just as slow. But even with this said, it is the best I have seen and should serve it's purpose here as well as for future research on the subject.

SBB

~ * ~

The Stone Age In North America
by
Warren K. Moorehead
1910
Illustrating more than 4,000 objects

http://www.scribd.com/doc/51938865/...ts-Weapons-Utensils-Etc-Warren-King-Moorehead


South Carolina in general:
http://www.dirtbrothers.org/gallery/bristow/index.html

This one with interesting sound video:
http://www.wltx.com/news/story.aspx?storyid=84910

Special interest Carolina coast:
http://shoutaboutcarolina.com/index...ry-museum-free-attractions-near-myrtle-beach/

South Carolina in general:
http://chicora.org/scarchaeology.html

 

[SODABOTTLEBOB]

By the way, I went back and looked through all 4,000 of the objects again that are shown in that encyclopedia document, and the one shown here from New York state was the closest thing to our little mystery item. This is not to say it isn't from North America, only that nothing like it had ever been found and documented for publication in that particular document from 1910.

SBB

[ Back and Front ]

( Said to be a true North American effigy )

{ Which illustrates that Northeastern American peoples "were" creating similar items }
>o< Notice the hollowed-out eyes >o<

? < Coincidence or Connection > ?

 

[ticm]

Reminds me of this. Be carefull.

 

[bradyboy]

A new poster, with a possible remarkable find
stone?
How was it detected? - being stone
Sounds pretty remarkable.
Sorry to sound like a doubting thomas
Brady

 

[kuger]

A new poster, with a possible remarkable find
stone?
How was it detected? - being stone
Sounds pretty remarkable.
Sorry to sound like a doubting thomas
Brady

Maybe read the thread

 

[relic lover]

Reminds me of this. Be carefull.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xnz2S72QOI8

That is my thoughts as well I remember that!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

A new poster, with a possible remarkable find
stone?
How was it detected? - being stone
Sounds pretty remarkable.
Sorry to sound like a doubting thomas
Brady

I hope they dont start calling us the Brady Bunch. You didnt know, Brady, that they have a new detector on the market that can detect stone at 12 inches? But you need fresh batteries to get good depth.

 

[bradyboy]

sorry. I guess its my bad,
Didnt know we now have stone dectors, if so, i will go stone crazy nuts
Brady boy

 

[kuger]

sorry. I guess its my bad,
Didnt know we now have stone dectors, if so, i will go stone crazy nuts
Brady boy

as stated....read the initial description before ya start casting doubt........

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

sorry. I guess its my bad,
Didnt know we now have stone dectors, if so, i will go stone crazy nuts
Brady boy

You realize I was just joking about the stone detector but you have been here long enough to know that every great find is not made with a metal detector. Nowhere did the OP state that they found this stone object with a metal detector. They said they were just digging in some wet sand and there is no reason to doubt their story.

To answer more questions, we were not metal detecting that day, although we do own one. We were just actually looking for shells and my husband was showing our kids the many hermit crabs on the beach and the sand was almost clayish and he started digging in one spot to show our girls the different layers in the sand and noticed something that didn't look right, like it belonged in the beach area. A magnet doesn't stick to it. We have thought of ways to figure of what kind of stone it is, like measuring the exact weight and seeing what kind of mineral it could be from there, but we don't want to mark it in any way.

 

[mcb66]

I posted this in the Pre Colonial are, but since this posting seems to be getting the most attention I'll post here also:

I sent your posting to one of the best Archaeologists in the southeast. He is based in SC so he has a ton of experience with this type of thing, here is his reply:
"Thanks for sending these. About the little clay figure. Voo Doo was, and still is, a big deal in that area of the SC coast. I knew Sheriff McTeer, the "White Witch Doctor" before he died. He told me how he would remove spells that had been put on persons. The use of such dolls and tokens were common. I suspect this one is of black origin and had something to do with their belief systems. The point is not moss agate, but thermally altered coastal plain chert from the Flint River formation. It has been stained to its present color because of being in the marshes where the pluff mud and other stuff caused it to change from its natural color.
Tom"
Anyway I hope that helps in solving your mystery.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I posted this in the Pre Colonial are, but since this posting seems to be getting the most attention I'll post here also:

I sent your posting to one of the best Archaeologists in the southeast. He is based in SC so he has a ton of experience with this type of thing, here is his reply:
"Thanks for sending these. About the little clay figure. Voo Doo was, and still is, a big deal in that area of the SC coast. I knew Sheriff McTeer, the "White Witch Doctor" before he died. He told me how he would remove spells that had been put on persons. The use of such dolls and tokens were common. I suspect this one is of black origin and had something to do with their belief systems. The point is not moss agate, but thermally altered coastal plain chert from the Flint River formation. It has been stained to its present color because of being in the marshes where the pluff mud and other stuff caused it to change from its natural color.
Tom"
Anyway I hope that helps in solving your mystery.

Sounds good. I guess hes saying its not very old.

 

[kuger]

Interesting about the Moss Agate.I am not familiar with eastern minerals non what so ever....out west here though,your specimen is a dead ringer for Moss Agate
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moss_agate