What clue do you think will take you to the Dutchman?

[gollum]

I thought searching for the LDM was illegal due to the land being federally owned and a military bomb range or such?

The Superstitions are a Wilderness Area. There is no Bombing Range. You can search all you want. Just not supposed to dig there.

Mike

 

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[Blindbowman]

I maybe a liar but you can not trust me when I say I would never ,,,,lol; yes I would and I and go to ... some day your going to go out and even the signs will be gone ... one day you will look up and weaver's needle will have vanished .. and you will be sad you will go to the parking lot and your car be gone hahahhahahahhaha lol hahhahhahhahah ~ but this will never happen because the taxes on that stuff will bankrupt anyone even me a few thousand years ...lol

 

[Holyground]

HG,

I doubt there was ever a period when the Superstitions were "full" of Apache. Do you have a source for that information? On the other hand, I do like your conclusion about the massacre grounds gold.

Good luck,


There is an Indian trail running from the Superstitions North, into Tonto Basin. Apaches traveled it all the time. Are you kidding me? really? No Apaches in the Superstitions? really? The Apaches didn't keep journals, by the way. If you can't find it in the library doesn't mean it didn't happen. Oh wait, you spoke with someone that was there?

 

[cactusjumper]

HG,

I doubt there was ever a period when the Superstitions were "full" of Apache. Do you have a source for that information? On the other hand, I do like your conclusion about the massacre grounds gold.

Good luck,


There is an Indian trail running from the Superstitions North, into Tonto Basin. Apaches traveled it all the time. Are you kidding me? really? No Apaches in the Superstitions? really? The Apaches didn't keep journals, by the way. If you can't find it in the library doesn't mean it didn't happen. Oh wait, you spoke with someone that was there?

HG,

I will stick with my statement. Most, if not all, tribes left evidence of their presence in and on the land they inhabited for any length of time. Since none of us have first hand knowledge of the early Apache history, and they did not record their prehistoric lives, we are left to read the history that is available to.....everyone.

[I doubt there was ever a period when the Superstitions were "full" of Apache.] If, on the other hand, if you can find the post where I said there were "No Apache in the Superstitions" I would appreciate your copying the post and pasting it in your next rebuttal. I can save you some time, if you like, I never said any such thing. I have enumerated the Apache that were in the Superstitions a number of times in the past.....here and on other sites. I do have credible sources and trust you have some as well.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Its also possible that while it sounded like Waltz said "miner", he meant "minor" in that "No child will ever find my mine." It could mean that his mine was out of reach for a child!

Mike

Sounds good to me. Waltz probably had a German accent
Now to be off topic.
About the Yavapai\Apache thing. It so happens last Sunday I ran across the Skeleton Cave massacre story. Here is the link to a fascinating and somewhat long, thorough article about the incident.
Here is something from the article related to what you and Potbelly Jim were discussing.
"One of the great tragedies of the Skeleton Cave Massacres is that the Yavapai were mistaken for Apaches, though there were crucial differences between the two. Early settlers and military recognized some differences between the groups. The southeastern or Ft. McDowell group was simply called "Apache" as they seemed indistinguishable from the several Western Apache bands. In the decades of Indian warfare in Arizona, the name "Yavapai" faded into disuse and any raids by the Yavapai were blamed on "the Apaches". At the time of the Massacre, books and magazines referred to the victims as Apaches. Nineteenth century writers usually referred to the groups of Yavapais separately until the name "Yavapai" came into general use. Mike Burns, the captured boy, made it plain in his autobiography that his people were Yavapai. (Confusing!!!)



To Whites in those days, they all looked alike, and an Indian was an Indian, better dead than alive. The confusion in calling Yavapai by the name Apache does not sit well with today's Yavapai, who feel it cheats them out of a unique heritage. Many newspaper and magazine accounts in the late 1800s stated "the better dead than alive" phrases.



In rare books owned by the author Smithsonian Institute, Bureau of American Ethnology, Bulletin 30, Handbook of American Indians North of Mexico, Ed. by Frederick Webb Hodge, (1907 and 1910) misstatements about these two tribes are perpetuated. The Yavapai are described as their name coming from "enyalva" (sun) and "pai" (people), i.e. "People of the Sun," and as a "Yuman tribe, popularly known as Apache Mohave and Mohave Apache, i.e. "hostile or warlike Mohave". The Apache, probably from "Apachu" (enemy), the Zuni name for the Navaho, were designated "Apaches de Nabaju" by the early Spaniards in New Mexico. The name has been applied also to some unrelated Yuman tribes as the Apache Mohave (Yavapai) and Apache Yuma. The Apaches call themselves "N'de, Dine, Tinde, or Inde"(People).



Ethnological writings describe some major differences between Yavapai and Apache peoples. Even sympathetic military personnel, who had opportunities to observe differences, recorded in their diaries that they were two separate peoples. Yavapai were described as taller, of more muscular build, well-proportioned and thickly featured while the Tonto Apaches were slight and less muscular, smaller of stature and finely featured. The Yavapai women were seen as stouter and having "handsomer" faces than the Yuma in the Smithsonian report. Another difference, which could probably not have been noticed at long range, was that the Yavapai were often tattooed, while Apaches seldom had tattoos. Painted designs on faces were different, as were funeral practices. In clothing, Yavapai moccasins were rounded, whereas the Apaches had pointed toes. Both groups were hunter-gatherers, but were so similar here that scholars are seldom able to distinguish between their campsites."
This is is a great read about the tragedy.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

The Superstitions are a Wilderness Area. There is no Bombing Range. You can search all you want. Just not supposed to dig there.

Mike

But could you get out of there with some rich ore in you backpack?

 

[Holyground]

HG,

I will stick with my statement. Most, if not all, tribes left evidence of their presence in and on the land they inhabited for any length of time. Since none of us have first hand knowledge of the early Apache history, and they did not record their prehistoric lives, we are left to read the history that is available to.....everyone.

[I doubt there was ever a period when the Superstitions were "full" of Apache.] If, on the other hand, if you can find the post where I said there were "No Apache in the Superstitions" I would appreciate your copying the post and pasting it in your next rebuttal. I can save you some time, if you like, I never said any such thing. I have enumerated the Apache that were in the Superstitions a number of times in the past.....here and on other sites. I do have credible sources and trust you have some as well.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Evidence? The Superstitions have been overrun with white people since the late 1800's. Your evidence is sitting in many people's dens all over the world. You would be hard pressed to find an arrow head today. In the past, they would gather in the Superstitions by the hundreds for extended periods. I'm not trying to argue but I know it to be fact. BTW, do you live in Arizona?

 

[azdave35]

Evidence? The Superstitions have been overrun with white people since the late 1800's. Your evidence is sitting in many people's dens all over the world. You would be hard pressed to find an arrow head today. In the past, they would gather in the Superstitions by the hundreds for extended periods. I'm not trying to argue but I know it to be fact. BTW, do you live in Arizona?

i'm sure alot of indians have been in the superstitions but i've never seen or heard of any evidence of them living there...it is a miserable place to navigate in..it's blistering hot in the summer and cold in the winter...not much game to hunt and very little water...quite a few people have researched this but never came up with anything...most of the indian camps up there were from ancient indians...the apaches and yavapais never really had permanent homes ..they were nomadic...they went north in the summer and came to the desert in the winter...they mostly stole from other hard working indian tribes or mexicans...the apaches had many enemies and when you steal for a living you never stay in one place very long...they may have went into the supers now and then to hide but they never lived there

 

[Oroblanco]

i'm sure alot of indians have been in the superstitions but i've never seen or heard of any evidence of them living there...it is a miserable place to navigate in..it's blistering hot in the summer and cold in the winter...not much game to hunt and very little water...quite a few people have researched this but never came up with anything...most of the indian camps up there were from ancient indians...the apaches and yavapais never really had permanent homes ..they were nomadic...they went north in the summer and came to the desert in the winter...they mostly stole from other hard working indian tribes or mexicans...the apaches had many enemies and when you steal for a living you never stay in one place very long...they may have went into the supers now and then to hide but they never lived there

In support of this post (that the Apaches did not literally 'reside' in the Superstitions) remember that at least two massacres of Apaches occurred in what were described as the Superstition mountains. I believe there are three total but can pull up two fast if someone wants the sources. There were good reasons why the Indians, and not referring to only the Pimas but also the Apaches, had a 'superstitious' fear of the Superstition mountains. A great place to get into serious trouble with no good way out. Plus there was not a great deal of wild game to hunt for food there, certainly not by the 1870s-1880s.

 

[azdave35]

In support of this post (that the Apaches did not literally 'reside' in the Superstitions) remember that at least two massacres of Apaches occurred in what were described as the Superstition mountains. I believe there are three total but can pull up two fast if someone wants the sources. There were good reasons why the Indians, and not referring to only the Pimas but also the Apaches, had a 'superstitious' fear of the Superstition mountains. A great place to get into serious trouble with no good way out. Plus there was not a great deal of wild game to hunt for food there, certainly not by the 1870s-1880s.

lol..if i had my choice between the mogollon rim and the supers in the summer..you can bet i'm going up on the rim...nice and cool..plenty of deer and fish

 

[cactusjumper]

Evidence? The Superstitions have been overrun with white people since the late 1800's. Your evidence is sitting in many people's dens all over the world. You would be hard pressed to find an arrow head today. In the past, they would gather in the Superstitions by the hundreds for extended periods. I'm not trying to argue but I know it to be fact. BTW, do you live in Arizona?

HG,

Yes, I live in Arizona. My Uncle Chuck lived in Apache Junction. My Mother's Uncle, Obie Stoker, also lived in Apache Junction. Both men were prospectors and had claims in the Superstitions. I made my first trip into the mountains with Chuck and my dad when I was 13 years old. I am 74 now. I started the Dutch Hunter,s Rendezvous a number of years ago and along with my wife and a number of friends made it a going concern.

I have been researching Arizona and the Apache for over 50 years. I believe, on both accounts, I know as much or more than the average Dutch Hunter. I have many very good resources. I don't believe they gathered in the mountains, by the hundreds, for any extended period. If you know it "for a fact", what are your facts? The Native Americans did not settle far from, constant, good water sources. The Apache you refer to were the Tonto's. You can research their history quite easily.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

The Superstition Mountains did not make for a good place of permanent residence for several reasons, the lack of reliable water sources being the biggest reason.
There was however ample food available mostly in the form of Mescal or agave hearts which were roasted in large pits in several places on ridges of the higher elevations such as Tortilla Mountain. The remains of those pits can still be seen in places throughout the mountains. Some of these sites were visited year after year by families and groups of families for gathering, hunting and harvesting.

Garden Valley was inhabited for centuries but not by the modern day Indians of the 1800's (Apache, Pima or Maricopas).

The Yavapai today have separate reservations. One is the Yavapai (Prescott) tribe another is the Yavapai-Apache tribe at Camp Verde. The Camp Verde Yavapai call themselves Yavapai-Apache and share 2 separate cultural and indigenous language identities. The Yavapai and Apache intermaried to such a degree that they blended into one people and live today at Camp Verde, Arizona.

The Superstition Mountains became the hiding place and escape routes for the Apache in the years 1872 - 1885. The San Carlos Reservation was established in 1872 specifically for the Chiricahua Apache and shortly after all the other Apache groups. Geronimo, Naiche, Nana, Loco, Chatto, and all the Chiricahua chiefs and warriors were herded onto San Carlos where the routinely slipped off the reservation to steal horses and cattle and kill as many teamsters, ranchers and miners as they could, then slip back onto the reservation for ration day. The Superstitions were a route for the renegades to raid across the Salt River into the Mazatzal Mountains and beyond. The Apache had words for the Superstitions that described them as a place of refuge and renegades. There is an old trail that leads from San Carlos and enters the Superstitions near the headwaters of LaBarge Canyon.

Matthew

 

[Riverbum]

AZDAVE yep the rim is definitely were I'd go in the summer also!!!!

 

[Doc4261]

What I don't get is why waltz wouldn't of filled the right of the doodle when there was def enough room to show more of area.. View attachment 1777343

 

[Idahodutch]

What I don't get is why waltz wouldn't of filled the right of the doodle when there was def enough room to show more of area.. View attachment 1777343

I don't know of anyone that could conclusively answer that. Your speculation, my speculation, just speculation. Never the less. we all do a lot of don't we.
My speculation. . . He finished the part he was most interested in and that was that. . .
Maybe he saw apache and had to high tail it to a different spot.. . .
Maybe he fell asleep. . . .

 

[JohnWhite]

What I don't get is why waltz wouldn't of filled the right of the doodle when there was def enough room to show more of area.. View attachment 1777343

At times I wonder IF this has anything to do with the Doucheman... https://www.bringfido.com/attraction/11684 lol...Who knows

Ed T

 

[Doc4261]

I don't know of anyone that could conclusively answer that. Your speculation, my speculation, just speculation. Never the less. we all do a lot of don't we.
My speculation. . . He finished the part he was most interested in and that was that. . .
Maybe he saw apache and had to high tail it to a different spot.. . .
Maybe he fell asleep. . . .

Your right on that. What clues fit. What maps are for what mine. Endless journey. Love the search for answers tho. Things that make u think.

 

[Idahodutch]

Your right on that. What clues fit. What maps are for what mine. Endless journey. Love the search for answers tho. Things that make u think.

Doc,
Things that make you think. . .yeah got that right. Some of the expressions or sayings that we still have around today. . . it can be amusing to think about how some of them came to be.
Almost 2 years ago, my wife and I moved to a small town in Idaho. We put up a chicken coop and added chickens. this has been our first experience doing something like that. Anyway, I think that chickens are a big source for many. Perhaps even the saying "High tailing" as well. 100 - 150 years ago, lots of folk had chickens. Fun to watch and good eggs. better than TV IMHO

So if you had to pick a favorite today, a year after starting this thread, what would it be for you?
Idaho

I think the clues I leaned on most were topographical . . easiest to eliminate big swaths of areas and hone in on what's left.
Once I felt I had the spot, I started looking at the other clues so see what lined up and what didn't.

 

[JohnWhite]

One thing I have learned after years and years of treasure hunting...IS...IF it has not been found in one particular spot is...It must be somewhere else...

I have bigger fish to fry...The Lost Doucheman is nothing more than a guppy for me...But then again...What do I knowrofl...

Ed T

 

[QE1]

Any chance you can tell us where these samples came from? Did you get these pictures from the Internet, or maybe an anonymous searcher sent you the pics? Are you one of the guys on the TV show?