What clue do you think will take you to the Dutchman?

[cactusjumper]

I would suggest reading a few books concerning Apache history. Grenville Goodwin would be a fine start.

There have been a few Apache-like artifacts found in and around the Superstitions. Most, if not all, are fakes by people trying to establish an Apache presence in the range. One of the better known was a ceremonial spear hidden in a crevice. I believe many of the more recent "finds" are an effort to establish the perp' as an authority on the Apache people. I suspect said perp's book has been placed on a back burner. You may need more than your imagination to re-write history.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[markmar]

Joe

How someone can distinguish an Apache artifact from another artifact of other tribe ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

How someone can distinguish an Apache artifact from another artifact of other tribe ?

Marius,

Each tribe/band has it's own unique way of marking their pottery, arrows.......etc. To the trained eye, it's not difficult to identify them. Once again, books are the answer to those who can't visit each tribe or band. The following picture shows an Apache Tus from around 1910. It has been authenticated.

Actual date was 1890

Take care,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Marius,

Each tribe/band has it's own unique way of marking their pottery, arrows.......etc. To the trained eye, it's not difficult to identify them. Once again, books are the answer to those who can't visit each tribe or band. The following picture shows an Apache Tus from around 1910. It has been authenticated.



Take care,

Joe

Joe

I believe reallity is stronger than books . Are these books like few about the LDM ? Or those who authenticated the Tus were the same who authentificated the Tucson artifacts and the PSM ?

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

How someone can distinguish an Apache artifact from another artifact of other tribe ?

Marius,

Why ask the question if you plan on denigrating the answers provided? That question shows that you have no idea of the methods of identifying different tribes or people. There are many really good books on the subject, some written and researched by people who lived among the different tribes and interviewed the natives as primary sources.

Don't know how I could answer your question better.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[markmar]

Did the authors you mentioned a research in the Superstitions for Apache artifacts ? If yes , do you provide a sentence which describes this ?

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Joe, nice pic of the tus, thanks for sharing it...I also like the knife, is that red obsidian? I found a chunk of that up by Deer Valley Airport in the '70s...the area's not really known for it, so it must have been brought there from afar and dropped by someone...anyway, nice knife!

 

[cactusjumper]

Did the authors you mentioned a research in the Superstitions for Apache artifacts ? If yes , do you provide a sentence which describes this ?

Marius,

I appreciate your desire to have others research the questions you are interested in, but I have no desire to go back over the research I have been doing for over sixty years just to have you turn up your nose at that lifetime of work. I could name a number of respected books on the subject, many of which are on my shelves, but first I would like to have you spend a few minutes explaining your "stronger reality" and how you achieved it.

Trying to understand the "reality" of the pre-reservation Apache requires books and manuscripts by those who actually lived it, or had that reality described to them by Apache who did live it.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[azdave35]

Did the authors you mentioned a research in the Superstitions for Apache artifacts ? If yes , do you provide a sentence which describes this ?

marius...the superstitions are a pretty inhospitable place to live..if i were around 150 years ago..i sure wouldn't want to live there...its burning hot 7 months out of the year...four peaks on the other hand is a perfect place to live...7700 ft elevation on top with lots of pine trees and desert climate in the lower levels...go up top in the summer and come down to the desert in the winter...four peaks are part of the matazal range...the tonto apache roamed the entire range....i seriously doubt they spent much time in the supers...very little water and not much for game...and miserable weather

 

[cactusjumper]

Joe

I believe reallity is stronger than books . Are these books like few about the LDM ? Or those who authenticated the Tus were the same who authentificated the Tucson artifacts and the PSM ?

Marius,

I have a letter of appraisal by David Cook for my Tus. It gave an approx. date of c.1880 (actual date was 1890)He makes a living with his knowledge of tribal art and artifacts.

That's good enough for me.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Anyone who is interested in the differences in the Apache Bands, should try to pick up "THE PEOPLE CALLED APACHE" by Thomas E. Mails. His Illustrations show the depth he went into in his research.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[PotBelly Jim]

From "Western Apache Raiding and Warfare" (using Grenville Goodwin's notes and interviews from when he lived with the Apache)

View attachment 1664584

I highly recommend this book as well...using the stories in it as told by the people themselves, it's possible to get a clear idea of where they lived and some of their interactions with others such as the Yavapai...

 

[markmar]

Ok , the Superstitions Mountains like we know them today were not " full ' with Apache , but the only tribe who ever passed through and lived inside were Apache . If you have another opinion or source which says otherwise , I would like to read it .

 

[cactusjumper]

Ok , the Superstitions Mountains like we know them today were not " full ' with Apache , but the only tribe who ever passed through and lived inside were Apache . If you have another opinion or source which says otherwise , I would like to read it .

Marius,

OK.....In truth, I believe the Apache presence in the Superstition Mountains is mostly myth, at least for the mid-1800s.

At that time, the area was under the control of the Yavapais, had been for generations, specificly the Kewevikopaya, who were the "Southeastern Yavapai", and the Iiwillkamepa of that group.

Combined, the Western Apache and the Chiricahua Apache only numbered a little over 5,000 people. Around 1,000 of that number were Chiricahua. Considering the number of women, children and old people, you can imagine there were not really that many warriors.

The Apache who might have been in the Superstitions, would have been the Tonto. The Northern Tonto intermaried with the Yavapais to the tune of around 50%. Even with that, they probably numbered less than 800 people.

Were there Apache in the Superstitions, sure. They pretty much went where they wanted. The Apache were mostly hunter/gatherers, mixed with raiding everyone. They followed the seasons. If they were there, it was just passing through or hiding, IMHO.

Others will have another opinion, but that will probably be based on the stories passed down through the generations. Thay may have the true story, but I am limited in my sources. Here, I have used the works of Grenville Goodwin, Dr. Gordon C. Baldwin, Dan L. Thrapp, Michael Melody and Timothy Braatz, as well as a few sources who will not be named.

Start with Dr. Gordon C. Baldwin.

If you really want to learn the truth about Native Americans, you will need a fat wallet.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

there just isn't enough evidence to prove the existence of apache in the supers in the 1800's...there are alot of petroglyphs in there but they are all from ancient tribes...i've never seen any proof that apache's ever carved any glyphs...anywhere...like joe says..i'm sure they were up there off and on (probably just for raids..cattle and such) but i highly doubt if they ever lived there

 

[Al D]

there just isn't enough evidence to prove the existence of apache in the supers in the 1800's...there are alot of petroglyphs in there but they are all from ancient tribes...i've never seen any proof that apache's ever carved any glyphs...anywhere...like joe says..i'm sure they were up there off and on (probably just for raids..cattle and such) but i highly doubt if they ever lived there

No one ever lived there, not the Pima, Hohokam, Anasazi or Apache, it was a place of spirits to all of them.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Marius,

I think maybe part of the confusion is due to the Yavapai always being mis-identified as Apache...it's something to look out for when reading books, newspapers, etc., especially for anything written back in the day...

IMO some ancient people did live in the Supes, but only in very small numbers. I think the remnants at Garden Valley are probably just one of many harvest camps, but who knows…supposedly there’s a man-made mound there…which might mean a lot more people…but the Yavapai’s that came later probably used the valley in the same manner…for harvesting…

Some Yavapai did "live" (a better word would be “camped”) in there now and then, but keep in mind they would have only been in there to harvest something...then they would have moved on to harvest or hunt something else...the charcoal pits and beds attributed to Peralta or Mexican miners were most likely IMO associated with agave or other cactus harvest cooking...

I don’t know if any agave fields exist in the Supes, but it has been recently established scientifically that most stands of agave in central AZ were brought there from Mexico and primitively farmed…in other words they were sustainably harvested and cared for in order to provide long-term resources…that’s why we often see them in clumps even today…the remnants still exist…

Written Yavapai history is spotty and often incorrect…I think Joe brought up Mike Burns…google him, much of his history was written down…he was a young Yavapai survivor of the Skeleton Cave Massacre…

 

[markmar]

Now back to the thread's title .
I took a fragment from anather forum ( https://www.desertusa.com/mb3/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=454 ) which describes some clues from Estee Conatser's book .
After I have done my research on the LDM and I formed an accurate image IMO , I made the corrections of the wrong clues on the text ( with red ) and I wrote beside , the correct clues ( with blue ) . These clues are for the mine with the tunnel below . I wish you good luck !

" CLUES FROM - THE STERLING LEGEND By: Estee (Shirley) Conatser 1972


Chapter 6 Page 30


The Mine, which Waltzer DESCRIBED as being a cone shaped pit, is supposedly situated in a ravine high on the side of a mountain with the mouth of the mine facing west.It is naturally hidden by the contours of the mountain making it impossible to see from below. Directly across the ravine and facing the east ( At the head/end of the ravine and facing north ) is a rock formation shaped like a face that looks down on the mine ( opposite the mine ) . It is a short climb up to the top of the mountain from which the tip of a tall sharp peak can be seen to the south.Also across the ravine from the mine there is a cave.




Chapter 6 Page 31


You must go to the head of a deep, narrow, north-south ( not at all , but only at the head portion which starts from the south ) trending canyon. The right canyon can be determined by the ruins of a stone house at its head ( mouth )... He further identifies it by stating that the old Military Trail runs along the bottom ( mouth ) of the canyon and can be seen from the mine... From this point you proceed down canyon until you find a cave near the base of a high bluff. The cave faces north and at the entrance are the remains of a stone house, minus the roof, in which Walzer and his partner lived while working the mine. With this cave located, you continue down the canyon, ( totally wrong because this clue is for if someone come down from the head of the canyon ) for a distance described as several ( few ) miles, carefully observing the east ( left , because the canyon changes directions ) side of the canyon. At an undetermined distance , you will see a rock formation in the shape of a face high on a ridge. This is the key. Directly across ( At the base and at the east end ) from ( of ) this stone face is the entrance to the mine. "

 

[393stroker]

I can honestly say that now I am totally confused.

 

[markmar]

I can honestly say that now I am totally confused.

Cut and throw again ( craps game term ) .