What clue do you think will take you to the Dutchman?

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azdave35 said:
anyone that follows the stone maps are chasing their tails
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Dave, if you follow the stone maps back in time......they will lead you to a happy-go-lucky guy
with a dremel in one hand & a beer in the other.
 

PotBelly Jim said:
Marius,

I think maybe part of the confusion is due to the Yavapai always being mis-identified as Apache...it's something to look out for when reading books, newspapers, etc., especially for anything written back in the day...

IMO some ancient people did live in the Supes, but only in very small numbers. I think the remnants at Garden Valley are probably just one of many harvest camps, but who knows…supposedly there’s a man-made mound there…which might mean a lot more people…but the Yavapai’s that came later probably used the valley in the same manner…for harvesting…

Some Yavapai did "live" (a better word would be “camped”) in there now and then, but keep in mind they would have only been in there to harvest something...then they would have moved on to harvest or hunt something else...the charcoal pits and beds attributed to Peralta or Mexican miners were most likely IMO associated with agave or other cactus harvest cooking...

I don’t know if any agave fields exist in the Supes, but it has been recently established scientifically that most stands of agave in central AZ were brought there from Mexico and primitively farmed…in other words they were sustainably harvested and cared for in order to provide long-term resources…that’s why we often see them in clumps even today…the remnants still exist…

Written Yavapai history is spotty and often incorrect…I think Joe brought up Mike Burns…google him, much of his history was written down…he was a young Yavapai survivor of the Skeleton Cave Massacre…
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Jim,

The Yavapai ARE Apache. I go in every res housing almost every day. They are called "The Yavapai Apache Nation". I'll drop a pic today.

20190102_090945.jpg

Mike
 

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gollum said:
Jim,

The Yavapai ARE Apache. I go in every res housing almost every day. They are called "The Yavapai Apache Nation". I'll drop a pic today.

Mike
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Hi Mike,

Thanks...I'm aware of the POLITICAL issues surrounding the reservation being named "Yavapai-Apache" in the 1900's...and as Joe pointed out, they've intermarried to a large degree and are basically joined at the hip today...however, in Waltz's day, they were allies and neighbors, but they were of different genetic stock (the "PAI" peoples were there for a long time before the Athapascans were), they had different home ranges, they spoke different languages, and were in fact different people from different places. Americans started calling them Apaches back in the day, because they didn't know any better.

Yes, I'm aware that Montezuma's headstone says he was an Apache, etc. etc...that is an Anglo construct that they just learned to accept, just like some learned to accept the name "Apache" when their name was actually phonetically spoken as "N'Deh"...but, the Yavapai that roamed the Supes, attacked the miners in the Bradshaws, etc., never considered themselves Apache, but put up with it after they were few in number and had no input as to what white folks and their government called them...What are/were called Yavapai-Apache and Apache-Mohave are actually different people, who were not Apaches...take care, Jim
 

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nobodie said:
Too late, I've already found it.
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Nobodie,
I'm beginning to suspect that maybe you have actually been to the rivene or at least seen it, but the real hunt was supposed to be the next trip. I'm in that boat with a bad crumbling back that has me a bit concerned about my real hunt. It was supposed to be only a year or so after I got home from my last trip in 08.
So anyway, have you been able to go on the real hunt?
Thanks,
Idaho Dutch
 

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With a certain map, I had started to look for the caches. I too have back problems, fell down a steep slope. Haven't been out there in 2 years. My back starting to feel better, maybe I can go out next year. Have to test my stamina first.
 

nobodie said:
With a certain map, I had started to look for the caches. I too have back problems, fell down a steep slope. Haven't been out there in 2 years. My back starting to feel better, maybe I can go out next year. Have to test my stamina first.
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I haven't made it back in since 2008. That trip was to go to the canyon floor below the ravine and get material samples. Got results the day before I had to leave to go back home. I think you and I are looking at the same spot.
 

azdave35 said:
no miner will ever find my mine
it wont lead you to the ldm but its one of the few clues you can take as truth
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Maybe Waltz meant a miner, thinkng like a miner would logically think, would look where a mine should be and be off base.
 

nobodie said:
With a certain map, I had started to look for the caches. I too have back problems, fell down a steep slope. Haven't been out there in 2 years. My back starting to feel better, maybe I can go out next year. Have to test my stamina first.
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Nobodie,
Do you suppose that the coordinates were somehow decoded or simply taken to g.e. Targets.
I've been trying to plot them out. You know there is something near the East ridge that is not visible on g.e.
I don't think jw put there though, why would he. Do know what I'm referring to?
 

Idahodutch said:
Nobodie,
Do you suppose that the coordinates were somehow decoded or simply taken to g.e. Targets.
I've been trying to plot them out. You know there is something near the East ridge that is not visible on g.e.
I don't think jw put there though, why would he. Do know what I'm referring to?
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I checked g.e all the way back and couldn't see it, but it's there and has been for 40 years at least.
I did a close up visual inspection but did not disturb it. Whoever put it there did a nice job.
Btw the samples I collected. . . I didn't want to go back home, I would have gone back in except there are no guarantees of finding it still intact, and taking care of my family and a steady paycheck comes first.
Now family is grown and have 4 grandchildren + a lousy back. Isn't that life?
Idaho Dutch
 

Hillbilly Prince said:
Maybe Waltz meant a miner, thinkng like a miner would logically think, would look where a mine should be and be off base.
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Its also possible that while it sounded like Waltz said "miner", he meant "minor" in that "No child will ever find my mine." It could mean that his mine was out of reach for a child! :tongue3:

Mike
 

Because I'm paranoid I can't say if it's the same place. I will say one last thing about it and no more. The man in the bush is near the eye of the needle. One of caches is somewhere near by. Enough said .
 

I thought searching for the LDM was illegal due to the land being federally owned and a military bomb range or such?
 

nobodie said:
Because I'm paranoid I can't say if it's the same place. I will say one last thing about it and no more. The man in the bush is near the eye of the needle. One of caches is somewhere near by. Enough said .
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Nobodie,
Have you tried or thought about using horses? I'm thinking of checking out a short trail ride or two to see how things hold up. One of my sons that went with me on the last trip is chomping at the bit so, it's definitely got me to pondering things. I've a friend that's good with horses. If I was able to ride, maybe he would be interested in going.
We'll see I guess.
 

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