Weiser's Gravesite

[Idahodutch]

It’s ok markmar, sometimes people just think differently from each other.
Allowances we make or don’t make, where each of us draws a line, what we e hold dear …. No two of us are alike.
I hope the best for you. 👍
Sincerely,
Idahodutch.

 

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[Idahodutch]

It’s ok markmar, sometimes people just think differently from each other.
Allowances we make or don’t make, where each of us draws a line, what we e hold dear …. No two of us are alike.
I hope the best for you. 👍
Sincerely,
Idahodutch.

Markmar,
I don’t think my response was the answer you were looking for. I will see if I can explain my position.

You say you figure stuff out by means of logic. And concerning things you mention such as Waltz burying Weiser’s body in the mine, and the death of the Mexicans.

For the death of the Mexicans, you say no way the last 4 would come out under fire.
And you have issue that Waltz would bury Weiser in the mine below the inclined shaft mine. Instead of just stuffing him into a crevasse or something.

So because you disagree with those actions, you take liberty to change the story….

What if the logic used was faulty or just Short sighted ?

If you were one of the 4 Mexicans in the incline shaft, and heard gunfire, and two of your party had just been shot. The 4 of you remaining, have to decide to either hide down in the shaft ….. maybe days
Or … try to flee and take a chance, to get away.

You have issue with Waltz putting Weiser’s body down into the mine, but not into a crevasse somewhere.

These two accounts, are in the realm of perfectly normal behavior, so I was very surprised to hear you use them a defense to declare Bicknell a liar, a fabricator of fiction, …… in your opinion.

From my viewpoint, it was not logic that was used to sort the issue, but the lack of it. The Walker story, never had a name for the victim. It was decades later, that someone just decided to say it must have been Weiser. That was the made up part .. in reality.

But you dismiss testimony of accounts, for fiction, a fabrication of someone. That logic is not logical 🤪

We are back to questioning integrity of clues.
There is none left, when they are tossed out and fabrications are used instead.

I don’t mind you believing what you want.
I take exception to rewriting history because you don’t like someone’s testimony (Bicknell’s 1895 article).

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
I don’t think my response was the answer you were looking for. I will see if I can explain my position.

You say you figure stuff out by means of logic. And concerning things you mention such as Waltz burying Weiser’s body in the mine, and the death of the Mexicans.

For the death of the Mexicans, you say no way the last 4 would come out under fire.
And you have issue that Waltz would bury Weiser in the mine below the inclined shaft mine. Instead of just stuffing him into a crevasse or something.

So because you disagree with those actions, you take liberty to change the story….

What if the logic used was faulty or just Short sighted ?

If you were one of the 4 Mexicans in the incline shaft, and heard gunfire, and two of your party had just been shot. The 4 of you remaining, have to decide to either hide down in the shaft ….. maybe days
Or … try to flee and take a chance, to get away.

You have issue with Waltz putting Weiser’s body down into the mine, but not into a crevasse somewhere.

These two accounts, are in the realm of perfectly normal behavior, so I was very surprised to hear you use them a defense to declare Bicknell a liar, a fabricator of fiction, …… in your opinion.

From my viewpoint, it was not logic that was used to sort the issue, but the lack of it. The Walker story, never had a name for the victim. It was decades later, that someone just decided to say it must have been Weiser. That was the made up part .. in reality.

But you dismiss testimony of accounts, for fiction, a fabrication of someone. That logic is not logical 🤪

We are back to questioning integrity of clues.
There is none left, when they are tossed out and fabrications are used instead.

I don’t mind you believing what you want.
I take exception to rewriting history because you don’t like someone’s testimony (Bicknell’s 1895 article).

There are few details for someone to can distinguish a real story from a fiction, and in Bicknell's, Herman's and Ely's stories there it's one critical detail which was left out. And this detail is the lack of mention of a Mexican armed guard who was their unmistekable behavior before and much more after the massacre in an Apache land.
If you believe there was not an armed guard in a place which overlooked all the surrounding area close to the mine, then the stories was not about Mexicans miners but maybe about five or six ( depend the story ) dwarves from the Snowwhite fairytale.
I hope the best for you too.

 

[Idahodutch]

There are few details for someone to can distinguish a real story from a fiction, and in Bicknell's, Herman's and Ely's stories there it's one critical detail which was left out. And this detail is the lack of mention of a Mexican armed guard who was their unmistekable behavior before and much more after the massacre in an Apache land.
If you believe there was not an armed guard in a place which overlooked all the surrounding area close to the mine, then the stories was not about Mexicans miners but maybe about five or six ( depend the story ) dwarves from the Snowwhite fairytale.
I hope the best for you too.

😁
Thanks markmar

 

[Idahodutch]

There are few details for someone to can distinguish a real story from a fiction, and in Bicknell's, Herman's and Ely's stories there it's one critical detail which was left out. And this detail is the lack of mention of a Mexican armed guard who was their unmistekable behavior before and much more after the massacre in an Apache land.
If you believe there was not an armed guard in a place which overlooked all the surrounding area close to the mine, then the stories was not about Mexicans miners but maybe about five or six ( depend the story ) dwarves from the Snowwhite fairytale.
I hope the best for you too.

Markmar,
Responses like this one, is why I wonder about your motives.
This is not friendly banter. More like the vomit I mentioned earlier.

I only came here to this thread, to show axer what I believe to be Wiesel’s grave.
I want to find a good picture though.

Axer, give me a few minutes, I’ll post a picture.

 

[Idahodutch]

Axer,
In the legends, there is a story of Weiser going with Waltz, but that he was killed while waltz went for supplies.
In that story, Waltz puts Weiser’s body down into the mine, and entombed him there.

It said Waltz spent the winter covering up his mine, so to leave no trace.
This is the mine across the canyon from his hidden camp.

What do you imagine Waltz used to cover up his mine?
It said he enlarged the opening to the mine to make a shelf, that was sloped to match the slope of the terrain. The shelf was to support logs crisscrossed over the opening. Then some dirt and rocks. Then the cache of what was $75,000 in gold back in the 1800’s.

Then he covered everything over …. No trace.
So would he use bushes, cacti, dirt, rocks,…??
Whatever he used, it was not readily recognizable, or it would not qualify as “left no trace”.

After much research, the spot crossed the canyon from the hidden camp, where the mine should be located, there is only a giant pile of rock. ….. approximately 40’ across, is the size of this pile of rock.

There is also a map, a plot map, and it shows the layout of Waltz’s ravine.
It shows locations of both mines, the caches, and the hidden camp.

I finally realized, with the lack of loose soil, and the abundance of rocks , that Waltz must have used rocks to bury his mine.

Here is the pile of rocks, where the mine should be located.

Bottom center of the cropped photograph is the very large pile of rock.

Under that pile of rock is a mine, with a cache on top. All buried under that rock …. I know, because the next year, I went back in, and started moving some rock.
We also took a piece of equipment similar to what Kesserling was using, to look for things around Marsh Valley area.

The equipment said I had been moving rock almost directly center of the cache, and deposit.

I had heart issues that I was not aware of , and almost did not make it back out.
Since then, I have been recovering, and I hope to go back this fall, and finish proving that this is the LDM.

Axer, I doubt there are any recognizable parts left of a frying pan. 🥴
Things I left on site, just the year before, were rusted beyond usability.
Rope was 1/2 way disintegrated. The elements are very harsh out there.

Anyway, I believe that pile of rock, is Weiser’s Gravesite.

Idahodutch

 

[markmar]

Markmar,
Responses like this one, is why I wonder about your motives.
This is not friendly banter. More like the vomit I mentioned earlier.

I only came here to this thread, to show axer what I believe to be Wiesel’s grave.
I want to find a good picture though.

Axer, give me a few minutes, I’ll post a picture.

After more than one year, you remembered to answer second time to my post, just to tell me how you feel now about what I have wrote. Your first answer to my post was " Thanks markmar " and now you are coming like you have woke up after so long time.
Realy, who is Axer, your invisible friend?

 

[Idahodutch]

After more than one year, you remembered to answer second time to my post, just to tell me how you feel now about what I have wrote. Your first answer to my post was " Thanks markmar " and now you are coming like you have woke up after so long time.
Realy, who is Axer, your invisible friend?

Last time, I was tired of your posts. I just wanted you to stop your deal … to stop being like a little boy that isn’t getting things just so.
It was easier to shine you on.
So this morning, I go to this thread to post something, and I get to be refreshed to your B.S. and I admit, I was not as tired this time. So I called you out on your behavior.

Thanks for providing more of it. 🥴 so much for changing your ways 🥹.
I’m not so tired these days, so until next time, you have a good one markmar 👍😁

 

[markmar]

Last time, I was tired of your posts. I just wanted you to stop your deal … to stop being like a little boy that isn’t getting things just so.
It was easier to shine you on.
So this morning, I go to this thread to post something, and I get to be refreshed to your B.S. and I admit, I was not as tired this time. So I called you out on your behavior.

Thanks for providing more of it. 🥴 so much for changing your ways 🥹.
I’m not so tired these days, so until next time, you have a good one markmar 👍😁

Are you talking to me or to Axer? Because I wrote there should been a Mexican guard at the mines, you felt offended because your favorite fiction story tellers ignored that detail?

 

[Cubfan64]

Axer,
In the legends, there is a story of Weiser going with Waltz, but that he was killed while waltz went for supplies.
In that story, Waltz puts Weiser’s body down into the mine, and entombed him there.

It said Waltz spent the winter covering up his mine, so to leave no trace.
This is the mine across the canyon from his hidden camp.

What do you imagine Waltz used to cover up his mine?
It said he enlarged the opening to the mine to make a shelf, that was sloped to match the slope of the terrain. The shelf was to support logs crisscrossed over the opening. Then some dirt and rocks. Then the cache of what was $75,000 in gold back in the 1800’s.

Then he covered everything over …. No trace.
So would he use bushes, cacti, dirt, rocks,…??
Whatever he used, it was not readily recognizable, or it would not qualify as “left no trace”.

After much research, the spot crossed the canyon from the hidden camp, where the mine should be located, there is only a giant pile of rock. ….. approximately 40’ across, is the size of this pile of rock.

There is also a map, a plot map, and it shows the layout of Waltz’s ravine.
It shows locations of both mines, the caches, and the hidden camp.

I finally realized, with the lack of loose soil, and the abundance of rocks , that Waltz must have used rocks to bury his mine.

Here is the pile of rocks, where the mine should be located.

View attachment 2104022
Bottom center of the cropped photograph is the very large pile of rock.

Under that pile of rock is a mine, with a cache on top. All buried under that rock …. I know, because the next year, I went back in, and started moving some rock.
We also took a piece of equipment similar to what Kesserling was using, to look for things around Marsh Valley area.

The equipment said I had been moving rock almost directly center of the cache, and deposit.

I had heart issues that I was not aware of , and almost did not make it back out.
Since then, I have been recovering, and I hope to go back this fall, and finish proving that this is the LDM.

Axer, I doubt there are any recognizable parts left of a frying pan. 🥴
Things I left on site, just the year before, were rusted beyond usability.
Rope was 1/2 way disintegrated. The elements are very harsh out there.

Anyway, I believe that pile of rock, is Weiser’s Gravesite.

Idahodutch

Axer,
In the legends, there is a story of Weiser going with Waltz, but that he was killed while waltz went for supplies.
In that story, Waltz puts Weiser’s body down into the mine, and entombed him there.

It said Waltz spent the winter covering up his mine, so to leave no trace.
This is the mine across the canyon from his hidden camp.

What do you imagine Waltz used to cover up his mine?
It said he enlarged the opening to the mine to make a shelf, that was sloped to match the slope of the terrain. The shelf was to support logs crisscrossed over the opening. Then some dirt and rocks. Then the cache of what was $75,000 in gold back in the 1800’s.

Then he covered everything over …. No trace.
So would he use bushes, cacti, dirt, rocks,…??
Whatever he used, it was not readily recognizable, or it would not qualify as “left no trace”.

After much research, the spot crossed the canyon from the hidden camp, where the mine should be located, there is only a giant pile of rock. ….. approximately 40’ across, is the size of this pile of rock.

There is also a map, a plot map, and it shows the layout of Waltz’s ravine.
It shows locations of both mines, the caches, and the hidden camp.

I finally realized, with the lack of loose soil, and the abundance of rocks , that Waltz must have used rocks to bury his mine.

Here is the pile of rocks, where the mine should be located.

View attachment 2104022
Bottom center of the cropped photograph is the very large pile of rock.

Under that pile of rock is a mine, with a cache on top. All buried under that rock …. I know, because the next year, I went back in, and started moving some rock.
We also took a piece of equipment similar to what Kesserling was using, to look for things around Marsh Valley area.

The equipment said I had been moving rock almost directly center of the cache, and deposit.

I had heart issues that I was not aware of , and almost did not make it back out.
Since then, I have been recovering, and I hope to go back this fall, and finish proving that this is the LDM.

Axer, I doubt there are any recognizable parts left of a frying pan. 🥴
Things I left on site, just the year before, were rusted beyond usability.
Rope was 1/2 way disintegrated. The elements are very harsh out there.

Anyway, I believe that pile of rock, is Weiser’s Gravesite.

Idahodutch

Dunno about that theory - there may be something buried there, but that doesn't look much like "left no trace" to me

 

[Idahodutch]

Dunno about that theory - there may be something buried there, but that doesn't look much like "left no trace" to me

😁
You mean the big pile of rock?

I can’t defend the term, “no trace” other than waltz was talking about that he dug away the outcrop to eliminate the bench. (A mining term I guess). That way, no miner would look for a mine there. In that respect, maybe the term applies …. I don’t know.

Doesn’t sound like you’re a miner either 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

 

[Idahodutch]

😁
You mean the big pile of rock?

I can’t defend the term, “no trace” other than waltz was talking about that he dug away the outcrop to eliminate the bench. (A mining term I guess). That way, no miner would look for a mine there. In that respect, maybe the term applies …. I don’t know.

Doesn’t sound like you’re a miner either 🤷🏼‍♂️😁

Cubfan,
You do realize that the way we use the term “no trace” today, such as in saying “no trace camping”; that it is a relatively new term.

That was a good try though 😎👍
It caught me off guard 🤓 had to put my thinking cap on, and it doesn’t fit very good 😁

 

[markmar]

Dunno about that theory - there may be something buried there, but that doesn't look much like "left no trace" to me

Agree. Also there it's a big difference between a 6' covered shaft and a 40' pile of rocks which supposedly is covering a 6' shaft. Seems Waltz exceeded his strengh to put tons of rock on his mine. Maybe was then when he ate that big portion of smoked pork belly fat.
There was no reason to do this. The place of Waltz's mine it's so remote and hidden by natural formations, even the Apache left that outcrop uncovered because they thought nobody would search that spot. Waltz found it using logic, as the Mexicans did too. He has seen how the inclined shaft after 40' going down, the gold vein in it turned horizontally to a specific direction. In that direction was the exterior of the mountainside, so the vein would pin out somewhere in that direction. The Mexicans found it first and opened a small tunnel below, but have not time to dig enough to make a mine out of it. Waltz covered over the Mexican tunnel with rocks and started digging the outcrop above.
Now, if under that 40' pile of rocks may be something buried, I have a theory. IMO, if all who passed close to that spot have choose it as a WC, and after would throw few rocks above, easily that pile of rocks would be formed.

 

[markmar]

Because latelly I see the critical LDM clues went downside the abys, I will post an aerial image of the landmark above the LDM, which resembles a rampant horse, with its mouth open and one ear laying back.
I post this image for the lovers of Truth and Mystery.

 

[Idahodutch]

Agree. Also there it's a big difference between a 6' covered shaft and a 40' pile of rocks which supposedly is covering a 6' shaft. Seems Waltz exceeded his strengh to put tons of rock on his mine. Maybe was then when he ate that big portion of smoked pork belly fat.
There was no reason to do this. The place of Waltz's mine it's so remote and hidden by natural formations, even the Apache left that outcrop uncovered because they thought nobody would search that spot. Waltz found it using logic, as the Mexicans did too. He has seen how the inclined shaft after 40' going down, the gold vein in it turned horizontally to a specific direction. In that direction was the exterior of the mountainside, so the vein would pin out somewhere in that direction. The Mexicans found it first and opened a small tunnel below, but have not time to dig enough to make a mine out of it. Waltz covered over the Mexican tunnel with rocks and started digging the outcrop above.
Now, if under that 40' pile of rocks may be something buried, I have a theory. IMO, if all who passed close to that spot have choose it as a WC, and after would throw few rocks above, easily that pile of rocks would be formed.

Seems you are trying awfully hard to pick a fight. Sorry markmar, but you don’t get to hold a football for me 😂😂

 

[axer]

Agree. Also there it's a big difference between a 6' covered shaft and a 40' pile of rocks which supposedly is covering a 6' shaft. Seems Waltz exceeded his strengh to put tons of rock on his mine. Maybe was then when he ate that big portion of smoked pork belly fat.
There was no reason to do this. The place of Waltz's mine it's so remote and hidden by natural formations, even the Apache left that outcrop uncovered because they thought nobody would search that spot. Waltz found it using logic, as the Mexicans did too. He has seen how the inclined shaft after 40' going down, the gold vein in it turned horizontally to a specific direction. In that direction was the exterior of the mountainside, so the vein would pin out somewhere in that direction. The Mexicans found it first and opened a small tunnel below, but have not time to dig enough to make a mine out of it. Waltz covered over the Mexican tunnel with rocks and started digging the outcrop above.
Now, if under that 40' pile of rocks may be something buried, I have a theory. IMO, if all who passed close to that spot have choose it as a WC, and after would throw few rocks above, easily that pile of rocks would be formed.

markmar, your description of the LDM gold vein matches closely to what I believe to be true, I'm amazed by the heat and pressure involved in gold formation, lots of broken rocks produced for sure.

 

[Idahodutch]

markmar, your description of the LDM gold vein matches closely to what I believe to be true, I'm amazed by the heat and pressure involved in gold formation, lots of broken rocks produced for sure.

Hello Axer,
Markmar might be surprised to hear from you. I’m glad you’re enjoying the legends.
I hope you have opportunity to check them out in the field, and that you don’t get sunstroke .. 👍😁
Welcome to Treasurenet forums. 🥳

Idahodutch

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Nobody wasted their time and effort moving tons of rock around by hand back then or ever.

 

[Idahodutch]

Nobody wasted their time and effort moving tons of rock around by hand back then or ever.

Why CN,
Whatever do you mean 😁😂

Maybe if you acquainted yourself with this story that talked about Weiser, and that Waltz buried him up in the outcrop mine, … the same one where it says Waltz dug away the outcrop, to remove the bench
Also says Waltz put the large cache on top of the outcrop mine.
Then it says he buried the whole thing.
(Moved tons of rock)
My point being it appears you’re not making yourself look very good at the moment.

Have a good one CN.

 

[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Why CN,
Whatever do you mean 😁😂

Maybe if you acquainted yourself with this story that talked about Weiser, and that Waltz buried him up in the outcrop mine, … the same one where it says Waltz dug away the outcrop, to remove the bench
Also says Waltz put the large cache on top of the outcrop mine.
Then it says he buried the whole thing.
(Moved tons of rock)
My point being it appears you’re not making yourself look very good at the moment.

Have a good one CN.

I look just fine, as always. Your story is fantasy. Best regards