Are there 2 LDMs ?

[ancientones]

Thanks Ancientones,
My quest is almost done now.
I will share some info, that is not secret.

There were three caches by Waltz.
He retrieved 2 of them.

The last one is buried on top of the LDM mine, by Waltz’ himself.
The other two caches were in the vicinity of the mine.

Take care and good hunting 😉

Idaho Dutch,
IF this is his mine, and buried a stash above the mine, it would have been on this ledge.
I have a bunch of photos of the ledge top, you can zoom in on these for detail, and a few observations
I've seen. This is your thread and appreciate your time. If interested, how can I get these to you?
2 pics of the crack/crevice. This should cover the LDM clues, if I missed any let me know, am sure I
have a pic of it. Also, you can see the cave on google earth, exactly per the sketch map(s) and clues.
Not gonna hike over there just to get a pic.
The 1st is a pic looking into the crack/crevice, notice the black iron vein running down and the opening-right side..
2nd pic. There is a square rock not quite covering a volcanic vent hole opening that is partially buried. You can almost peek inside

 

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[Idahodutch]

Idaho Dutch,
IF this is his mine, and buried a stash above the mine, it would have been on this ledge.
I have a bunch of photos of the ledge top, you can zoom in on these for detail, and a few observations
I've seen. This is your thread and appreciate your time. If interested, how can I get these to you?
2 pics of the crack/crevice. This should cover the LDM clues, if I missed any let me know, am sure I
have a pic of it. Also, you can see the cave on google earth, exactly per the sketch map(s) and clues.
Not gonna hike over there just to get a pic.
The 1st is a pic looking into the crack/crevice, notice the black iron vein running down and the opening-right side..
2nd pic. There is a square rock not quite covering a volcanic vent hole opening that is partially buried. You can almost peek inside
View attachment 2063295
View attachment 2063296

Good morning Ancientones,
I appreciate your asking my involvement. Have you thought about starting a thread just for this find?
There are many advantages, such as future readers will have an easier time finding your postings, if not buried in some other thread. Certain alarms or notifications can be set up for just your thread too, so you get notified when someone is posting on your thread. (Although you can set up to receive notifications for any thread, not just your own).

I think you have a cool find, and what’s good, is that you have lots of photographs to share too.👍
There can be snide comments from some of the riff raff, at times, but just have your thick skin on 😂👍

Perhaps formulate a plan of sorts, for presentation, pics, other visual aids, and flow of thought. 😁

Idahodutch

 

[ancientones]

Good morning Ancientones,
I appreciate your asking my involvement. Have you thought about starting a thread just for this find?
There are many advantages, such as future readers will have an easier time finding your postings, if not buried in some other thread. Certain alarms or notifications can be set up for just your thread too, so you get notified when someone is posting on your thread. (Although you can set up to receive notifications for any thread, not just your own).

I think you have a cool find, and what’s good, is that you have lots of photographs to share too.👍
There can be snide comments from some of the riff raff, at times, but just have your thick skin on 😂👍

Perhaps formulate a plan of sorts, for presentation, pics, other visual aids, and flow of thought. 😁

Idahodutch

 

[ancientones]

Hello Idaho Dutch,
I may do this and again, Thank you for your time and Good Luck!
Ancientones

 

[musician]

@ancientones If I remember correctly the aspect of archaeology was not the deciding factor for the permit, just an additional requirement by the forest service. More important for the permit was the search for gold bars or coins, which means a lost treasure instead of mined gold ore. http://superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com/2015/06/caves-of-gold-bars.html

I am sure you would find an archaelogist easily once you have a permit. They are not so well paid at university or museum that you would not be able to hire one. There is a now retired forest ranger who is named in connection with the 2004 permit in articles.

Regarding your mexican and indian clues - where do you find them? Did you find Waltz clues like the hidden camp, a rock man standing in the brush and a face of an indian overlooking the canyon?

 

[ancientones]

@ancientones If I remember correctly the aspect of archaeology was not the deciding factor for the permit, just an additional requirement by the forest service. More important for the permit was the search for gold bars or coins, which means a lost treasure instead of mined gold ore. http://superstitionmountaintomkollenborn.blogspot.com/2015/06/caves-of-gold-bars.html

I am sure you would find an archaelogist easily once you have a permit. They are not so well paid at university or museum that you would not be able to hire one. There is a now retired forest ranger who is named in connection with the 2004 permit in articles.

Regarding your mexican and indian clues - where do you find them? Did you find Waltz clues like the hidden camp, a rock man standing in the brush and a face of an indian overlooking the canyon?

Musician, Thank you for this and the info. There may not be a way to verify The Sombrero Mine/LDM and where I am at. This is my quest and I am going to start a thread for any ideas and suggestions like yours. I have not searched this site, other than to find the opening of the mine. I have hundreds of pics so if I know a location, I may have it.
When you climb up the ledge to the mine(front North side of ledge) on the Mex miner footpath, you pass this rock. It is facing into the canyon. Thanks again!

 

[Hunter1805]

Guys, will you please find the Lost Dutchman Mine... I have been hearing about this for 50 years. I was wondering if maybe we guys from the Eastern section of the USA can assist you and find this hole in the ground and put this to rest. We are pretty good with solving riddles and sorting out facts from fiction.. We also great technology available, great research minded individuals armed with great knowledge and of course metal detectors.... Its time to find this hidden treasure.

 

[musician]

@ancientones The rock head looks convincing. This is a summary of reports from 2004 with a named ranger. https://www.angelfire.com/planet/rights/rare_permit.html

 

[Ramiro valdez]

Guys, will you please find the Lost Dutchman Mine... I have been hearing about this for 50 years. I was wondering if maybe we guys from the Eastern section of the USA can assist you and find this hole in the ground and put this to rest. We are pretty good with solving riddles and sorting out facts from fiction.. We also great technology available, great research minded individuals armed with great knowledge and of course metal detectors.... Its time to find this hidden treasure.

I’m with you on this, but it seems that most people have grown to believe in the Superstitious Mountains. They are so into them them that they blind themselves from actual mine that they’re looking for? The clues are very true but they don’t apply to the superstitious mountains, except for one? That is the needle? The needle has always been the pointer, The one that can point you towards the mine. but no one see this because it’s pointing from the south towards the northeast high across the valley to an area that oversees many mountains. A location of nine square miles and within the nine miles you can creat a five mile circle where you can find all the clues to the mine. The thunder god mountain stares at you every day hiding the five mile area that sits towards the east. And no! I personally would not wast any money or time with any one who insists that they have found or believe that they have found the mine in the Superstitious Mountains? If you want to add more years to this hunt then forget what I said and just keep doing what your doing.

 

[Idahodutch]

………. I personally would not wast any money or time with any one who insists that they have found or believe that they have found the mine in the Superstitious Mountains? …….

Ramiro,
Thanks for “taking the time” ….
to stop by my thread here.
I’m one of those guys that believe the LDM is in the Superstition Mountains, east of Phoenix.

I just thought you would want to know, so you don’t accidentally waste any more time here. 😁👍

 

[jeffhowlett]

There are two pit mines, plus a couple of other searcher, attempts. But yes mainly two as Idaho says, as you say the first pit mine with rubble in front and down below the mine. The primary mine is filled in and crusted over with caliche and hard as cement. The second pit mine is farther down the faultline on the other side of the small mountain. So yes he had two pit mines, waltz said so. The second one is hard to get to and is in a small sunken valley. This is where he said he made two attempts above where the Mexicans tried to hit the vein from the other side. The second attempt farther up is in the tiny valley and tucks out of site. We have reason to believe that two guys could be working on that site. It is the one place you could work and if careful not be seen. But yes he had two mines as Idaho is correct.

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Idahodutch,
I tried to tell you before that you were following a fake story told to Julia by Waltz. Other than his nephew coming to help him, he never had a partner. Wiesner never existed, Waltz made that story up before he was sick.

Bicknell heard from Julia, a mix of fake stories, along with a pit mine true story of a mine that Waltz had part of in the Bradshaws which he sold. Bicknell took that and formed his own story. It was not until the Holmes Manuscript was made public in 1962, that the truth came out of the real LDM.

Waltz's mine was never a pit mine, and it was only one mine. Many believe Adolph Ruth had a map to the LDM, he didn't. He most likely had a map to the Heywood mine which was a pit mine.
The mine that Waltz had, used to have an opening the size of a pickle barrel when the three Mexicans showed it to him before he killed them. They would cover it with a Pinon tree, and he would cover it the same way before he sealed it. No tree was planted, stories grow from bits and pieces.

Waltz was going to take Julia, and Rhiney to the board house at the Quarter Circle U to go show them the mine. He planned to ride a horse to the area, if he couldn't, he was going to point them in the direction over the ridge to the North. Now how do you get to your area without going over that ridge?

 

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Idahodutch,
I tried to tell you before that you were following a fake story told to Julia by Waltz. Other than his nephew coming to help him, he never had a partner. Wiesner never existed, Waltz made that story up before he was sick.

Bicknell heard from Julia, a mix of fake stories, along with a pit mine true story of a mine that Waltz had part of in the Bradshaws which he sold. Bicknell took that and formed his own story. It was not until the Holmes Manuscript was made public in 1962, that the truth came out of the real LDM.

Waltz's mine was never a pit mine, and it was only one mine. Many believe Adolph Ruth had a map to the LDM, he didn't. He most likely had a map to the Heywood mine which was a pit mine.
The mine that Waltz had, used to have an opening the size of a pickle barrel when the three Mexicans showed it to him before he killed them. They would cover it with a Pinon tree, and he would cover it the same way before he sealed it. No tree was planted, stories grow from bits and pieces.

Waltz was going to take Julia, and Rhiney to the board house at the Quarter Circle U to go show them the mine. He planned to ride a horse to the area, if he couldn't, he was going to point them in the direction over the ridge to the North. Now how do you get to your area without going over that ridge?

Hello Homar,
I had no idea you had these questions, all this time.

I didn’t try to figure out all the different things, but focused on locating the mine. Maybe I missed something about the board house plan. I was under the impression it was a 3rd route, not disclosed to Julia, or Holmes?
Each path was different.

I have to ask how you came by such details on all things told by Julia to Bick, when so much noise about proof that it happened at all? 🤓

 

[Gary M Herndon]

Guys, will you please find the Lost Dutchman Mine... I have been hearing about this for 50 years. I was wondering if maybe we guys from the Eastern section of the USA can assist you and find this hole in the ground and put this to rest. We are pretty good with solving riddles and sorting out facts from fiction.. We also great technology available, great research minded individuals armed with great knowledge and of course metal detectors.... Its time to find this hidden treasure.

That's all nice but "Do you have experience in Prospecting? Placer Gold? Mining? Minerals? Decades of searching in the field? Geology or forensic geology? Panning? Wet or Dry Sluicing?" ... Damn I could list forever lol

 

[Gary M Herndon]

Guys, will you please find the Lost Dutchman Mine... I have been hearing about this for 50 years. I was wondering if maybe we guys from the Eastern section of the USA can assist you and find this hole in the ground and put this to rest. We are pretty good with solving riddles and sorting out facts from fiction.. We also great technology available, great research minded individuals armed with great knowledge and of course metal detectors.... Its time to find this hidden treasure.

Don't mind me not trying to insult just looking for your experience .. Eastern USA? Where about? And btw the LDM is not fiction, it has history based Facts. And out of the 80 or so called clues, 90% were ruled out a few years ago.

 

[coazon de oro]

Hello Homar,
I had no idea you had these questions, all this time.

I didn’t try to figure out all the different things, but focused on locating the mine. Maybe I missed something about the board house plan. I was under the impression it was a 3rd route, not disclosed to Julia, or Holmes?
Each path was different.

I have to ask how you came by such details on all things told by Julia to Bick, when so much noise about proof that it happened at all? 🤓

Howdy Idahodutch,

Don't mind me , and my opinions. I tried to tell you that Bicknell had it all wrong. I quit after I found out how convinced you were, and let you enjoy your search. Now that others have shown you that Julia and Bicknell had no real directions, I thought you might see things more clearly now.
I have never had a question in thirteen years of posting other than who wrote two of the clues. Not where those clues fit, or if they are real, just who came up with them. The "question" was for you to ask yourself why was Waltz planning to take Julia, and Rhiney over the North ridge from the board house? Would it not be easier to take them to where you enter those mountains?
Jacob Waltz knew Julia way before the flood, and would visit her business often. Then when her husband left her stuck in debt, Waltz helped her out of it with gold. Of course she questioned him about it. Was he going to tell her that he killed three Mexicans to take their mine? Of course not, he made up a story of how he and his "partner" Weiser saved a man, and got rewarded with a mine. Nobody in their right mind would give away such a rich mine, maybe only half.
After the flood when Waltz was saved by Rhiney, and taken to Julia to look after, he was with her for eight months. Yes he talked with Julia and Rhiney for eight months, that means he talked about the other three mines he was part owner of with real partners which are verifiable. One of those mines was a pit mine.
He also tried to tell them where his rich mine was, when he was not getting any better. With no maps of the area, and no named landmarks other than the Salt River, it was not easy. He figure he would take them as close as he could and point the area out for them.
Julia and Rhiney had a fake story, and eight months worth of different directions of a place that was in no official map, in an they had never been in. After Waltz passed away, it was no wonder Julia and Rhiney couldn't find the mine.
Bicknell was one of many who was searching for the mine, going on hearsay, of course he questioned Julia, wouldn't you? She was alive, and had talked to Waltz for more than eight months, and had searched for the mine herself. With directions, and clues from two, or maybe three different routes to a "pit" mine, it's no wonder why they got it wrong.

 

[Idahodutch]

Hello Homar,
I had no idea you had these questions, all this time.

I didn’t try to figure out all the different things, but focused on locating the mine. Maybe I missed something about the board house plan. I was under the impression it was a 3rd route, not disclosed to Julia, or Holmes?
Each path was different.

I have to ask how you came by such details on all things told by Julia to Bick, when so much noise about proof that it happened at all

Howdy Idahodutch,

Don't mind me , and my opinions. I tried to tell you that Bicknell had it all wrong. I quit after I found out how convinced you were, and let you enjoy your search. Now that others have shown you that Julia and Bicknell had no real directions, I thought you might see things more clearly now.
I have never had a question in thirteen years of posting other than who wrote two of the clues. Not where those clues fit, or if they are real, just who came up with them. The "question" was for you to ask yourself why was Waltz planning to take Julia, and Rhiney over the North ridge from the board house? Would it not be easier to take them to where you enter those mountains?
Jacob Waltz knew Julia way before the flood, and would visit her business often. Then when her husband left her stuck in debt, Waltz helped her out of it with gold. Of course she questioned him about it. Was he going to tell her that he killed three Mexicans to take their mine? Of course not, he made up a story of how he and his "partner" Weiser saved a man, and got rewarded with a mine. Nobody in their right mind would give away such a rich mine, maybe only half.
After the flood when Waltz was saved by Rhiney, and taken to Julia to look after, he was with her for eight months. Yes he talked with Julia and Rhiney for eight months, that means he talked about the other three mines he was part owner of with real partners which are verifiable. One of those mines was a pit mine.
He also tried to tell them where his rich mine was, when he was not getting any better. With no maps of the area, and no named landmarks other than the Salt River, it was not easy. He figure he would take them as close as he could and point the area out for them.
Julia and Rhiney had a fake story, and eight months worth of different directions of a place that was in no official map, in an they had never been in. After Waltz passed away, it was no wonder Julia and Rhiney couldn't find the mine.
Bicknell was one of many who was searching for the mine, going on hearsay, of course he questioned Julia, wouldn't you? She was alive, and had talked to Waltz for more than eight months, and had searched for the mine herself. With directions, and clues from two, or maybe three different routes to a "pit" mine, it's no wonder why they got it wrong.

Hello Homar,
Somehow you have gotten the impression I think Waltz’s mines are pit mines?
You know as well as I do, that a post like, doesn’t mean agreeing 😜

I have to dispute the claim you insinuate, I fail to see where anybody provided any proof to the contrary of the Bick’s Jan. 1895 story.

Only opinions 😉
Wow, you and many sure grabbed onto that quick 😕

No condolences needed here 😂👍

 

[releventchair]

Idaho Dutch,
Thanks for the reply. Yes, on the South side of the ledge. I have 100 plus pics with All the clues-the legit ones anyway. Some obvious other clues not known-mainly Mexican. My hope is you(or others that may see this) may know of anyone involved in this excavation of an Old Spanish Well, thought to be the mine, in the Sups. about 30 years ago. A permit was obtained from the Forest Service. I have been down the road on this 20 years and 'appears' I cannot 'validate' this myself, any 'ore' brought out by me could be called a 'cache' and without a permit could not be 'dug'. Like I say, I need the assistance at this point. Like you, my trips are numbered and nothing more I can do out there. Like I say, I need the assistance at this point so will see what happens
The Dutchman clues were short and precise, he was dying. To say Weavers Needle was South, and then 'any'
direction by saying 'within a 5 mi circle with Weavers at its center' made me 'question' this clue. Since everyone
has been 2 1/2 miles North of Weavers, and just a clue or 2 seems to be all that can be found, I went to 5. The Dutchman had several clues, but the Mexcan/Indian clues are fairly detailed about the site. I have also been
advised that this is 'The Sombrero Mine', not the LDM because of the location, but the clues are here, as described, in the location described. Again, because of a clue saying Weavers at its center.
If you have a specific clue, let me know.

The red dashes are the trail, this was taken at the site. A Mexican clue states: 'there are 3 Monuments at the mine, a Crescent, a Triangle and a Circle'. A monument is a stone on top of a stone.

View attachment 2063120

Phoenix is far from the needle.
Waltz lived and died in Phoenix along the North edge of the Salt river. (The same river farther East that the needle is South of.)
From his bed the needle was South. Quite a ways East too! , but following the Salt East the needle would eventually be - S.

 

[Idahodutch]

Howdy Idahodutch,

Don't mind me , and my opinions. ………..

The "question" was for you to ask yourself why was Waltz planning to take Julia, and Rhiney over the North ridge from the board house? Would it not be easier to take them to where you enter those mountains?

Homar, I’m not sure what you’re expecting here, or how it makes a difference, as any answer is speculation, wouldn’t you say?

I’ve gone hiking into the supers from 3 different areas. I don’t know if I ever used the same path as Waltz to get into the mountains. I wasn’t having to watch out for bushwhackers and wild Indians though either 🥳🥳👍.

To say the monumented trail path that “the woman” told Bick about is fake, is of course your opinion….. but what about it do you think is fake …. ?

There is no question in my mind, that those directions are verifiable in the field, and can be followed….. I think it important to remember that it used to be monumented, so yeah, easy to make a wrong turn now, and when Julia was looking.

These next thoughts, are just some thoughts ….
I think it likely that the monumented trail, was how Waltz was shown the way to the mine, and is part of the story of him getting the mine …. Hence what “the woman” told Bick which seems to be “how Waltz got the mine”.
I don’t think she shared the German directions at all with Bick.

I think it likely that both her and Rhiney were probably both present for much of the talks, including the mention of first discussions at Christmas dinner, that Matthew shared with us, just not all of them.

I don’t see how this is considered showing something is fake. 😕

Back to why Waltz chose the board house path ?? … 🤷🏼

 

[Idahodutch]

Homar,
If I ever get to finish checking things out, I may be able to speak to the events talked about in that article, when Waltz was reaching the mine, and after.
So far, things are spot on 🤓👍

If you have something I missed about this, please fill me in 😁🤗