Weiser's Gravesite

[Idahodutch]

PS,
The 3 foot man made monument was very nicely stacked pyramid.
I didn’t look inside to see if a can with paperwork was there, but it didn’t look like it would have ever been used as a tie off for supporting descent into the depths
The rocks were not that big. If there was a rope used, it would need a stronger tie off point in my opinion. I am an old Eagle Scout, and have some experience with rope bridges and stuff.
But not repelling, and this is kind of in between the two.... Idk, maybe you’re right
Idahodutch

 

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[skyhawk1251]

For Idahodutch --

"The 3-foot, man-made monument was very nicely stacked pyramid. I didn't look inside to see if a can with paperwork was there, but it didn't look like it would have ever been used as a tie-off for supporting descent into the depths. The rocks were not that big. If there was a rope used, it would need a stronger tie-off point in my opinion. I am an old Eagle Scout, and have some experience with rope bridges and stuff. But not rapelling, and this is kind of in between the two ..." -- Idahodutch

You're correct. The pyramid cairn was not an anchor point for a fixed rope. A very large boulder or deeply embedded ground stake would have been used. A fixed rope might not have been used at all, but it would be my preference if many trips up and down were necessary.

"It seems like a suitable camp site should be there, but enough to just have outfitters drop gear ... across the canyon where we hiked in from, is still sloped but less sloped. But it was pretty windy over there. There is also an area to drop down to Needle Creek west of the ravine, where the creek starts heading down to the north again. That looks like a hike, not a climb ... but if there is a lot of rain, then down at Needle Creek may not be a good spot to camp if it's full of water. Even if camp just up out of creek bed a bit, if rain comes, can trap you in your camp, if the creek was the camp access. I like the idea of easy access to water though. I need to visit with some outfitters, see what they suggest." -- Idahodutch

I'm looking at possible campsites close to your chosen ravine, but on the opposite side of the mountain, where I'm assuming your team will make their way up the mountain. Unfortunately, GE is completely unsuitable for this purpose, mainly because the image data is too old, and areas that look to be clear of vegetation in GE could now be completely overgrown. It looks, though, that finding a site that is relatively level and somewhat protected from the elements won't be easy. You will need a site high enough above the arroyo bottoms to be safe from flash flooding. Weather should be warm and dry if you go in November, but there is no guarantee of stable conditions over a two-week period. A NOAA weather radio will probably be useless, due to no signal.

 

[Idahodutch]

For Idahodutch --



You're correct. The pyramid cairn was not an anchor point for a fixed rope. A very large boulder or deeply embedded ground stake would have been used. A fixed rope might not have been used at all, but it would be my preference if many trips up and down were necessary.



I'm looking at possible campsites close to your chosen ravine, but on the opposite side of the mountain, where I'm assuming your team will make their way up the mountain. Unfortunately, GE is completely unsuitable for this purpose, mainly because the image data is too old, and areas that look to be clear of vegetation in GE could now be completely overgrown. It looks, though, that finding a site that is relatively level and somewhat protected from the elements won't be easy. You will need a site high enough above the arroyo bottoms to be safe from flash flooding. Weather should be warm and dry if you go in November, but there is no guarantee of stable conditions over a two-week period. A NOAA weather radio will probably be useless, due to no signal.

The potential locations for camp are limited, if wanting to stay close enough to the ravine , for it to be handy.
The time of year will be Feb/Mar and for duration, about a week, plus 2 days for hiking in and out. But a week exploring.

It doesn?t look good for having outfitters pack right to desired camp areas, so have looked at potential drop spots for the gear. That?s a hard spot to get into packing gear. Traversing the terrain in there requires agility, balance, and often 3 points of contact with the ground. Boulder hopping in the creek .... with gear ... just asking for mishaps.

I remembered something from one of my first trips ... would have been maybe around 1969.
My mentor was looking for the saddle with the Indian ruin circle of rocks.
I didn?t realize at the time, but he must have seen or heard stuff from Holmes Manuscript.
We dropped into Boulder Canyon from 2nd water (today?s 2nd water), and headed towards south.
After the trail turned south, we veered to East, but was still going south ... at an angle ... didn?t see what he was looking for, and passed by west of Red Hills, then across Needle Creek on Bull Pass trail, up and over Bull Pass and on back out to First Water trailhead.

Bull Pass trail is a workout
So my mentor never did find the saddle.

I guess for me, some of Holmes clues were mixed in all along.
I just didn?t know it.

 

[skyhawk1251]

"The potential locations for camp are limited, if wanting to stay close enough to the ravine, for it to be handy. The time of year will be Feb/Mar and for duration, about a week, plus 2 days for hiking in and out. But a week exploring. It doesn't look good for having outfitters pack right to desired camp areas, so have looked at potential drop spots for the gear. That's a hard spot to get into packing gear. Traversing the terrain in there requires agility, balance, and often 3 points of contact with the ground. Boulder hopping in the creek ... with gear ... just asking for mishaps.

I remembered something from one of my first trips ... would have been maybe around 1969. My mentor was looking for the saddle with the Indian ruin circle of rocks. I didn't realize at the time, but he must have seen or heard stuff from Holmes Manuscript. We dropped into Boulder Canyon from 2nd water (today's 2nd water) and headed towards south. After the trail turned south, we veered to east, but was still going south ... at an angle ... didn't see what he was looking for, and passed by west of Red Hills, then across Needle Creek on Bull Pass trail, up and over Bull Pass and on back out to First Water trailhead. Bull Pass trail is a workout. So my mentor never did find the saddle. I guess for me, some of Holmes clues were mixed in all along. I just didn't know it." -- Idahodutch

Yes, getting pack horses close to your ravine will be a challenge. A roundabout route might have to be considered. For your last trip into the mountains, did you have many water crossings? For my trip, I want to make sure I'm wearing boots that won't fall apart if they become water-soaked.

 

[Idahodutch]

Going in from First Water trailhead, there were maybe 4 creek bed crossings, but once heading north in Boulder Canyon, there are several. The trail zigzags from this side of creek, to that side and back and forth.
When viewing past years in GE, one can see how Boulder trail changes frequently, in places.

It would not surprise me if at times, the junction to Needle Creek becomes an impasse that must go around.
On the camp treks I put up, I didn?t show it, but we hiked north to almost where the trail hits the big zig zag .... to see rock formations. If I would have included it, the map would have needed to zoom out, and then lose even more detail.

Anyway, in rainy situations, where there could really be some water, Boulder Creek is not safe IMHO.
The evidence left behind from past surges is hard to miss. I don?t know how long it takes for things to recover, but to me, it looks like water high enough to get boots wet, probably happens every year, but flash floods to redecorate canyons ... not so often, but could be hard to escape if it happened.
There are some pretty big trees growing in that part of Boulder Canyon, as well as some OLD cholla. It?s been at least a few decades since that canyon roared.

For trail hiking ... it?s up to you, but I wore good tennis shoes, and glad I did.
Just not much ankle support, so have to avoid those rocks that roll out from under foot
Wet boots would suck pretty bad
If not on trail, your clothes won?t last long. Continuous thicket is a good description.

 

[Idahodutch]

My congratulations once again on your successful exploratory trip, and my appreciation for your taking the time to share it with us. I think you've done your research on the LDM as good as it can be done. You've convinced me that your chosen spot is worthy of more scrutiny.

Your description of the hidden camp is of particular interest to me. Matching its location with the Holmes Manuscript indicates to me that no direct pathway from the hidden camp to the mine was ever constructed. The manuscript reads, "After you find the camp then come back out of the canyon." So, it seems that the way from the hidden camp to the mine was by going around the mountain and then by approaching the mine from the other end/opposite direction. You don't make mention of seeing any evidence of pathways leading away from the hidden camp.



With reference to the terraced ground that the rock house was built on, how large an area does the terraced ground cover? How large are the boulders that were used to build the retaining wall? How high is the entrance to the shallow cave, and do you have a guess as to how deep it could have been before sediment partially filled it? Is there clear evidence of human habitation, such as a fire ring? How high are the walls of the rock house as they now stand?

It's my guess that the first prospectors (Mexicans) panned the gravels on the canyon bottom, and finding colors in their pans, they traced the source to a rich vein, or perhaps the vein/ledge was visible near the canyon bottom, now covered over by Waltz. Diggings would not have been done without there being indications that gold was present.

View attachment 1945220

View attachment 1945221

Skyhawk,
It is hard not to think about all the implications that would come with actually finding the LDM.
The amount of gold that Waltz talked about ..... enough gold showing to make millionaires of 20 men. That equates to quite a lot in today’s terms. If I’m not mistaken, that equates to ~ 1.75 billion in gold ... showing.
It is hard to imagine, but what of the rest of the iceberg, not showing

Waltz had the right idea, low key life raising chickens, and growing some food ..... along with his secret back up caches.

 

[skyhawk1251]

"Skyhawk -- It is hard not to think about all the implications that would come with actually finding the LDM. The amount of gold that Waltz talked about ... enough gold showing to make millionaires of 20 men. That equates to quite a lot in today's terms. If I'm not mistaken, that equates to about 1.75 billion in gold ... showing. It is hard to imagine, but what of the rest of the iceberg, not showing? Waltz had the right idea, low-key life raising chickens, and growing some food ... along with his secret back-up caches." -- Idahodutch

But, again here, my skepticism comes into play. Waltz's words sound like drunken bragging. I seriously doubt if that much gold was visible in the shaft, with gold only selling at $20 an ounce. And Waltz had no way of knowing if the concentration of the gold was continuous throughout the vein, or if it was in pockets. I will go as far as to grant that the ore he recovered was very rich, but how much could be recovered before the vein is depleted is anyone's guess, and Waltz didn't have x-ray eyes.

 

[Idahodutch]

The discription given of amount of gold showing, doesn’t sound like the shaft mine to me either, for the reason you mention, but also because he said they found something on an outcrop, while ascending up the ravine the first time, when they killed the Mexicans. He said it was gold in the outcrop, and it was more gold than quartz. This outcrop mine would have been the one he later covered up with logs and such. The opening of the mine was approximately 4’ in diameter, and he then enlarged the top few feet by a couple of feet to make a shelf. He stacked logs side by side and crisscrossed layerings.
That’s the mine I think he was talking about that had really a lot showing. He did say they put the Mexicans bodies down into the shaft mine above, but worked the very rich outcrop mine, that’s below.
The upper shaft mine is up under the shelf on the ridge somewhere, but the outcrop mine below is the one directly across the canyon from the hidden camp.
That’s the best I can tell at this date anyway. I could be wrong though
Maybe one day we’ll get to find out ... maybe not.

 

[gollum]

Skyhawk,
Nobody has found the LDM. Silver Chief was not it.

For those who wonder why the Silver Chief Team would leave so much rich gold ore. I don't personally know how well versed they were in the mining arts. A rich vein can shear off, pinch out (and maybe open back up), or play out. Many people wouldn't know the difference.

An experienced miner or geologist could tell you if a vein sheared and which direction it sheared to. You could then blast, drill, or pick to find it again. If the vein pinched out, an experienced miner would keep going in the hope the pinch would only last a short distance. If the vein played out.........then youre done. HAHAHA The Pit Mine (as found) was partially collapsed. It was mucked out to about 90 feet deep. Once the bottom was found, mining experts looked to see where the vein went. That is why you go to the bottom of the original pit, then there's a sharp dogleg that continues in that direction for another approx 200-300 feet. This is based on photos and conversations. While I have heard a lot of names thrown around, I do not have any personal knowledge of the people involved. Which is why I never use any names when I talk about it.

As far as Weiser being real; We have done all those things Cubfan described as being necessary to find the man. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent on the International Ships Transcriber Guild's (ISTG) Website searching their records for Waltz, Walz, Wolz, Weiser, Weisser, Wiser, Wizer, and every variation. There are some close ones, but they all fall apart on close scrutiny. The only thing that really references Weiser is the "Peralto-Storm Deerskin Map":

Look just underneath "ADOLPH RUTH MURDER SITE". It says "Wiser's stuff under boulder". I know Storm/Climenson had some issues, but here it is.

Mike

 

[Idahodutch]

Skyhawk,
Nobody has found the LDM. Silver Chief was not it.

For those who wonder why the Silver Chief Team would leave so much rich gold ore. I don't personally know how well versed they were in the mining arts. A rich vein can shear off, pinch out (and maybe open back up), or play out. Many people wouldn't know the difference.

An experienced miner or geologist could tell you if a vein sheared and which direction it sheared to. You could then blast, drill, or pick to find it again. If the vein pinched out, an experienced miner would keep going in the hope the pinch would only last a short distance. If the vein played out.........then youre done. HAHAHA The Pit Mine (as found) was partially collapsed. It was mucked out to about 90 feet deep. Once the bottom was found, mining experts looked to see where the vein went. That is why you go to the bottom of the original pit, then there's a sharp dogleg that continues in that direction for another approx 200-300 feet. This is based on photos and conversations. While I have heard a lot of names thrown around, I do not have any personal knowledge of the people involved. Which is why I never use any names when I talk about it.

As far as Weiser being real; We have done all those things Cubfan described as being necessary to find the man. I can't tell you how many hours I have spent on the International Ships Transcriber Guild's (ISTG) Website searching their records for Waltz, Walz, Wolz, Weiser, Weisser, Wiser, Wizer, and every variation. There are some close ones, but they all fall apart on close scrutiny. The only thing that really references Weiser is the "Peralto-Storm Deerskin Map":

View attachment 1987167
Look just underneath "ADOLPH RUTH MURDER SITE". It says "Wiser's stuff under boulder". I know Storm/Climenson had some issues, but here it is.

Mike

Mike,
Good to hear from you
I remember hearing about stuff attributed to Wiser, that apparently had been found at some point ....... early enough for Storm to include mentions.
I don’t think I ever heard details about the items found. I know I’ve heard speculations, but that’s all.
At one time, I really wanted to know which boulder, so could check it out
I never did chase down the exact supposed Boulder.

Did you ever hear details about the items that were under the Boulder?
Sincerely,
Idahodutch

 

[Idahodutch]

Yes, getting pack horses close to your ravine will be a challenge. A roundabout route might have to be considered. For your last trip into the mountains, did you have many water crossings? For my trip, I want to make sure I'm wearing boots that won't fall apart if they become water-soaked.

Skyhawk,
About shoes/boots.
I really didn’t give proper answer answer ....
I was going to wear boots, but Skechers (hiking shoes) have memory foam and we’re incredibly comfortable. Worked fantastic for trail hiking.
For off trail like in the ravine .... I got lots of plant debris, frequently getting in at the ankles. Could use more support for in there too, as long as you stay nimble as much as possible.
Stickers dropping into shoes at the ankles are annoying, but a stumble from wearing big ol’ clod hopper boots, could be much worse.

I ordered a pair of Skechers, that are boots, waterproof, and memory foam. Had to order on line, first time for me getting shoes without trying on first, so I can not yet give testimony on the comfort

Looking into chaps right now.

 

[Idahodutch]

Skyhawk,
About shoes/boots.
I really didn’t give proper answer answer ....
I was going to wear boots, but Skechers (hiking shoes) have memory foam and we’re incredibly comfortable. Worked fantastic for trail hiking.
For off trail like in the ravine .... I got lots of plant debris, frequently getting in at the ankles. Could use more support for in there too, as long as you stay nimble as much as possible.
Stickers dropping into shoes at the ankles are annoying, but a stumble from wearing big ol’ clod hopper boots, could be much worse.

I ordered a pair of Skechers, that are boots, waterproof, and memory foam. Had to order on line, first time for me getting shoes without trying on first, so I can no yet give testimony on the comfort

Looking into chaps right now.

My plans for this trip, are the Skechers hiker type tennis shoes for hiking in, our, and around camp.
The Skechers boots, plus additional protective clothing for the ravine.

I think I will take some Velcro strap knee pads along, and safety goggles.... in case some rock need to be broken up for sample collections.
One can never tell for sure, until the time. ....Maybe this time is the time?

 

[Idahodutch]

Good afternoon Dutch hunters.
I have been debating with myself if I should reveal something or not, that I discovered while at the site. I honestly do not believe that anybody else is aware of this.
It was many years ago, when we made a trip to collect samples, and to find the view point for viewing 4 peaks, to see what’s what with that portion of he Holmes manuscript clues.
What I discovered, other than the view, may seem insignificant, but it may have been a stumbling block for many searchers from finding the view.
The topo maps out there, do not accurately depict the high points of the low ridge that has the view..
Someone going by a topo map, rather than what exists in reality, will go to the wrong place.

So quick update .... so far, for this upcoming expedition, all things are scheduled, provisions secured, team assembled, and getting excited.
The chips eventually will fall, and it will be whatever it’s going to be.

 

[Idahodutch]

Good afternoon Dutch hunters.
I have been debating with myself if I should reveal something or not, that I discovered while at the site. I honestly do not believe that anybody else is aware of this.
It was many years ago, when we made a trip to collect samples, and to find the view point for viewing 4 peaks, to see what’s what with that portion of he Holmes manuscript clues.
What I discovered, other than the view, may seem insignificant, but it may have been a stumbling block for many searchers from finding the view.
The topo maps out there, do not accurately depict the high points of the low ridge that has the view..
Someone going by a topo map, rather than what exists in reality, will go to the wrong place.

So quick update .... so far, for this upcoming expedition, all things are scheduled, provisions secured, team assembled, and getting excited.
The chips eventually will fall, and it will be whatever it’s going to be.

The search was successful .... the chips have fallen 😁
Vini Vidi Vici

Idahodutch

 

[BlackLine]

Happy Easter everyone,
I was reviewing Bicknell’s 1895 full article, and the account told about Waltz’s partner Weiser, and where Waltz put Weiser’s body.

Said put him in the crop they were digging (LDM?) and covered it up.
At some point in the legend, maybe on last trip to mine, Waltz really covered up hefty with logs and such.

Was Weiser still buried there, or was he moved?
Just curious.

I think he is still buried there? (right side)

 

[markmar]

Jacob Weiser ( or Wiser ), Waltz's partner, died at Dr. Walker house wounded by Indian's arrow and maybe was buried somewhere close there. Waltz's nephew died at Aqua Escondida shot by Waltz, but this is another story.
There are about three accounts of how Waltz aquired the LDM:
- One is of Herman's who said Waltz and Weiser while working an alluvial gold placer site and were resting to a spring, have heard sounds of miners working a hard rock mine, went there following the sounds and killed mistakenly five Mexicans.
- Another is of Sims Ely who wrote how Waltz and Weiser were at the mine site with one of the Peralta's family to take some gold , returned to Mexico and after went back to the mine, but when they were resting at a spring close to the site, they heard and did the same like in the Herman's account.
- And the third is Waltz's deathbed confession which says how while he was hidding after an Indian attack, he happened to meet two Mexicans who were mining the mine and after showing him the mine site, he killed them in cold blood and took possession of the mine.
From my research after studying the maps and other clues and using more logic than anything else, I came to the conclusion how Waltz deathbed confession is the most accurate account, and I will explain why I believe this.

First let's start with how Waltz and Weiser found themselves to the alluvial placer site. They have had a map, a map which shows a route like a centipede which ends after taking a bend to the right. For who didn't know, this map is a Spanish/Mexican style map which as their rule, the lines in the maps don't follow canyons or ravines, nor put specific known landmarks in their accurate place, but instead the lines follow some rocks/boulders which are lining in a row following a specific route close to canyons but not necessary parallel with them. So, what it's depicted on the map, it's not any known canyon and what someone marked as Weaver's Needle at number #4, it's not WN but something else which has the specific shape on the ground. The fact Waltz and Weiser found themselves panning for gold in a place north of WN in regards to find the mine, tells the following story: they went to Mexico, somehow aquired the map from a Peralta's family member but because Peralta didn't has time to explain the map's coding or didn't want to reveal, tell them the oral directions to the mine ( LDM inclined shaft ), the know to all as " Go to the first gorge... ". W&W started by the instructions, but looking at the map they mistakenly believed ( like many others after ) how the #4 was WN, thought that led them to the wrong spot.

Now you have to know something about the LDM spot and about their camp across the gulch. Believed it or not, there was no way to escape alive from an Indian attack at both sites and nor horse or mule could reach close by. Also from their alluvial gold placer site ( little NW from Al Morrow's mine ) it's not possible to hear someone working the LDM inclined shaft. If Waltz would have found Weiser dead at their camp site and buried him like many believe at the mine's site, then Waltz had to carry Weiser on his back a looong way around, thing which seems impossible in that rocky country and at his age. The only " grave ' which it's close to the LDM residual placer, it's a rock marked with a cross, marking which belongs to a different story, from a different era.

So, there it's only one option that could fit the fact Weiser made it to Dr. Walker house, and which leads indirectly to the story of Waltz deathbed confession. And this story goes like this: one evening W&W while were resting at their alluvial gold placer camp in Needle Canyon, were ambushed by a group of Apache who maybe came for a traditional ceremony to their sacred cave, so the timeline was late spring according to the Apache ritual. The Apache for their own reasons, getting dark or didn't want to be wounded by a riffle bullet, didn't chase W&W but only threw a volley of arrows and let them run away on death fear. In those hard moments, somehow Waltz went to the north and Weiser being wounded went south and from that moment they didn't know what hapened about each other.
And from here begin the two stories, one of Weiser dying at Dr. Walker's house and the other of Waltz meeting at a spring, the two Mexicans which were working the LDM inclined shaft, story taken from Waltz deathbed confession.
My opinion is how after Weiser death, Waltz called up on his nephew in regards to help him working the LDM inclined shaft or the LDM residual placer which found later, but from what Waltz confessed, ended up killing his nephew at the Hidden Water Spring after an argument about filling a claim on a LDM mine. Also I believe the two gold caches that Waltz buried and after took away , were the ore that the two Mexicans have mined before Waltz has killed them. Waltz found the LDM residual placer by following the direction of the vein from the LDM inclined shaft, and seeing there was a cliff face in the direction of the vein, he thought how it would rise out somewhere on the side or at the lip of the cliff, thought which came true.

It's amazing how a map can tell a story and can shred little light in regards to distinguish more real stories from another which are derivations or misunderstandings.

 

[Idahodutch]

Hmmmm,
Well markmar, that is all very interesting.
There have been lots of stories, that’s for sure, and it’s easy to go down all sorts of rabbit holes, often with no way to verify on from another.

Weiser’s Gravesite (this thread) was only detailed out in Bicknell’s 1895 article as relayed to him by Julia Thomas….. as far as I know anyway😵‍💫

Are you saying Bicknell’s 1895 account of Weiser’s death and burial location, are not as stated in the article?

 

[markmar]

Hmmmm,
Well markmar, that is all very interesting.
There have been lots of stories, that’s for sure, and it’s easy to go down all sorts of rabbit holes, often with no way to verify on from another.

Weiser’s Gravesite (this thread) was only detailed out in Bicknell’s 1895 article as relayed to him by Julia Thomas….. as far as I know anyway😵‍💫

Are you saying Bicknell’s 1895 account of Weiser’s death and burial location, are not as stated in the article?

Yes, I believe how what Bicknell wrote about the killing of Mexicans and Weiser burial, all were made up. There don't make sense some details.
When suposedly W&W killed the first two Mexicans, why the other four to get out from the mine when they knew somebody had them at the gun point? They would wait for a good moment to react or to make their escape.
And why to bury Weiser in the mine when there were plenty crevaces or other places to do this?
I believe what Bicknell wrote about Weiser grave was by deduction from a Waltz clue which says how beside the mine ( LDM crop ) is a grave marking, eventualy a cross. The same cross marking, someone can find along the egde of the cliff carved on ten rocks, markings that form a specific route to a different treasure.

 

[Idahodutch]

Yes, I believe how what Bicknell wrote about the killing of Mexicans and Weiser burial, all were made up. There don't make sense some details.
When suposedly W&W killed the first two Mexicans, why the other four to get out from the mine when they knew somebody had them at the gun point? They would wait for a good moment to react or to make their escape.
And why to bury Weiser in the mine when there were plenty crevaces or other places to do this?
I believe what Bicknell wrote about Weiser grave was by deduction from a Waltz clue which says how beside the mine ( LDM crop ) is a grave marking, eventualy a cross. The same cross marking, someone can find along the egde of the cliff carved on ten rocks, markings that form a specific route to a different treasure.

😵‍💫 wow,
You were better off NOT explaining.
Idahodutch.

 

[markmar]

😵‍💫 wow,
You were better off NOT explaining.
Idahodutch.

I don't understand what you mean.