We Found This in Bolivia but Can it be Dated and or Identified?

[capt dom]

Take a stab at dating this stone artifact!

 

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[capt dom]

I have been there a couple of times
in my miss spent youth or jaded past.

The last trip was to trace the origins
of many of the coins that we are finding
We went to Potosi.

Into the mines....

Paid homage to Uncle Tio, {he's the "other" well hung guy in the tunnel}
Being tour typical tourista.... I left my mark just opposite Uncle Tio
for him to forever - contemplate.... kinda like Kilroy... I used the flame
and soot from my paraffin lamp...

and showed the miners some of the silver coins coming off
of our shipwreck site that started out there life in the Red Mountain...

 

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[daroofa]

Awesome pictures. Thanks for sharing.

 

[lamar]

Dear Capt. Dom;
The next time you are around Bolivia, give me a shout and I'll set something up so we can goof around the Cordillera for a week or two.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Thanks for posting Lamar. I think we can now put up the green check. "carved by the local Collas and then sold to tourists."

 

[naturegirl]

Hey!, This turned out pretty cool, thanks for sharing the story Cap'n

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

In response to your negative email Capt. Dom. I do not have any first hand knowledge of your ceremonial knife but Lamar lives in South America and he has just told you what it most likely is. I have read some of Lamars prior TN posts and I find him to be very knowlegable. The quote, in my post, is his. If you have any questions about the identification of your object, I would suggest that you direct them toward him. Maybe Lamar will be kind enough to explain it to you again. He seems like a nice guy and I think you should listen to him.. Im sorry you somehow misunderstood.

...they are carved by the local Collas and then sold to tourists...

Thanks for sharing your Bolivia trip Capt. Dom. I have also been reading with interest about your Jupiter endeavors and the authentic artifacts and cobs that you find on your shipwreck site. Im sorry the knife appears not to be what you expected. You have a right to disagree with the ID. The decision to post the green check is yours alone. I do NOT decide what is solved and what is not. I can only offer my opinion. I thought it was solved. If I am wrong, I apologize.

bigcypresshunter

 

[TORRERO]

I'm not an expert, but it seems to me that if an archaeologist says "You can sell it because it's broken in three pieces" then something is not adding up.
That is a beautiful piece, and if real, exceedingly rare and this comment does not seem to hold water.
Scientists and Archaeologists spend a lifetime putting the pieces of pots back together so they can
be displayed in museums, which is where a piece like this should be....
The story sounds fishy...
Not saying you weren't told that....
but lets be real here....
They said they did not want a 10 or 15 thousand year old artifact because it was broken
It makes no sense to me...

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
The artifact cannot be Toltec, Aztec, or Mayan as all of these pre-Columbian cultures are located in the northern part of the American hemisphere throughout Mexico and/or Central America, whereas Bolivia is located in South America and it was once a part of the Inca culture.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[traderoftreasures]

Dear group;
The artifact cannot be Toltec, Aztec, or Mayan as all of these pre-Columbian cultures are located in the northern part of the American hemisphere throughout Mexico and/or Central America, whereas Bolivia is located in South America and it was once a part of the Inca culture.
Your friend;
LAMAR

thanks i didn't look at a map, i had just guessed that bolivia was south....of me. how old is the inca culture date back to?

 

[capt dom]

To the uninitiated....

Those schooled in the archeological sciences often hold
themselves to a different standard than the laymen.

Hence, it is alright, when they put something back together rather than some
dastardly treasure hunter, scoundrel or some other form of Cretan.....

Artifacts are often purposely broken - so that they can be marketable and circumvent
laws - as they may be written.

This does not prove them to be either re-productions or genuine.
Everything that is old does not have to be in a museum.
This concept - brought to its logical extreme is the very basis
of the rift between the archeological community and the treasure hunting community.

The private sector does not have any problem sharing information with the public
until one or the many starts threatening their rights.... It is usually only then, things start to
get hidden or kept secret....

I found a very significant pre-archaic item last week while working at our
shipwreck site. After posting it on Treasure Net - making it public knowledge, we
got immediate responses leading us to identify it as a Kame Glacial Sandal Gorget.

Another body of research - pointed to us states that only 100 of these are known to
be in existence in either public or private collections. Some say I should have kept this secret
because of its potential $ value. Others said, "Oh the boogie man archeologists are
now going to come after you" - "Big mouth".... There probably are some skeptics
out there that may think that I purchased this artifact or even more twisted think I
made it!

To those I have a message in the following photo:
Copy the photo and kiss the treasure Net symbol.

Lamar...
This is not directed to you.
I am one of those guys who shows up!
So, I will take you up on your offer.

And, whether it is 15 years old or 15,000 years old {final vote is not in yet}
there is not copy stamp or small written stamp stating "made in usa, Japan"
on it - so it "is" a Bolivian Artifact that I cherish and enjoy sharing its viewing with others...
If you have some photos of the knock-offs, by all means, post them...

I do not have thin skin and wish to know more of this piece.

Thanks.

 

[CRUSADER]

To the uninitiated....

Those schooled in the archeological sciences often hold
themselves to a different standard than the laymen.

Hence, it is alright, when they put something back together rather than some
dastardly treasure hunter, scoundrel or some other form of Cretan.....

Artifacts are often purposely broken - so that they can be marketable and circumvent
laws - as they may be written.

This does not prove them to be either re-productions or genuine.
Everything that is old does not have to be in a museum.
This concept - brought to its logical extreme is the very basis
of the rift between the archeological community and the treasure hunting community.

The private sector does not have any problem sharing information with the public
until one or the many starts threatening their rights.... It is usually only then, things start to
get hidden or kept secret....

I found a very significant pre-archaic item last week while working at our
shipwreck site. After posting it on Treasure Net - making it public knowledge, we
got immediate responses leading us to identify it as a Kame Glacial Sandal Gorget.

Another body of research - pointed to us states that only 100 of these are known to
be in existence in either public or private collections. Some say I should have kept this secret
because of its potential $ value. Others said, "Oh the boogie man archeologists are
now going to come after you" - "Big mouth".... There probably are some skeptics
out there that may think that I purchased this artifact or even more twisted think I
made it!

To those I have a message in the following photo:
Copy the photo and kiss the treasure Net symbol.

Lamar...
This is not directed to you.
I am one of those guys who shows up!
So, I will take you up on your offer.

And, whether it is 15 years old or 15,000 years old {final vote is not in yet}
there is not copy stamp or small written stamp stating "made in usa, Japan"
on it - so it "is" a Bolivian Artifact that I cherish and enjoy sharing its viewing with others...
If you have some photos of the knock-offs, by all means, post them...

I do not have thin skin and wish to know more of this piece.

Thanks.

At first you seemed knowledgeable & you PMed me as well making out that you didn't fall out the first tree. Now I just think you are closed minded & have made up your own mind, so why bother us.

 

[capt dom]

I genuinely have no idea how old this is.
If you read my post fully, you will see I
will welcome photos of reproductions anyone
may have.

Just because reproductions are made does not
mean all items are reproductions.

That is a fallacy of basic Introduction to Logic 101.
Jumping to conclusions hastily is a human mistake
many make - including myself.

I made one by assuming one posting was discounting
authenticity based up me not personally finding this item.

The poster cleared this up by explaining it was one of his
process of elimination questions - so as to narrow the window
of his assessment.

The point I am attempting to make here and through out this posting is I really want to
know if this is genuine or not. But, I won't care that much if it is a
knock off. I am not trying to sell it!

The sun will still rise tomorrow...

Sorry if my "salty humor" offended any of the "us' out there...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Capt Dom I dont know why your azz is on fire when you previously stated that, "If some jamoke sat around just 10 or twelve years ago
beating a couple of rocks together to make this
I am just as happy to have it!"

We are not talking about the gorget you found at your shipwreck site. You asked TN members to ID a common tourist looking item that you purchased in Bolivia as a tourist. If you dont like the answer dont kill the messenger or try to belittle the forum or its members.

Sure its a possibility that you somehow bought the one very valuable ancient artifact that somehow got mixed up with the authentic reproductions and was accidentally sold to you. Of course its possible.

I think lamar has told you what it most likely is. We are only looking at one picture and we only know what you tell us. Maybe if you would be kind enough to tell us more about how you obtained this item and the history of it, as told to you, we would have more to work with.

Lamar maybe if you posted a picture of the common tourist types that are sold we could compare pictures. I wouldnt blame you if you dont but we could learn a lot from you. Myself, I am always willing to learn and Im sure the other TN members feel the same.

 

[capt dom]

Capt Dom I dont know why your azz is on fire when you previously stated that, "If some jamoke sat around just 10 or twelve years ago
beating a couple of rocks together to make this
I am just as happy to have it!"

We are not talking about the gorget you found at your shipwreck site. You asked TN members to ID a common tourist looking item that you purchased in Bolivia as a tourist. If you dont like the answer dont kill the messenger or try to belittle the forum or its members.

Sure its a possibility that you somehow bought the one very valuable ancient artifact that somehow got mixed up with the authentic reproductions and was accidentally sold to you. Of course its possible.


I think lamar has told you what it most likely is. We are only looking at one picture and we only know what you tell us. Maybe if you would be kind enough to tell us more about how you obtained this item and the history of it, as told to you, we would have more to work with.

Lamar maybe if you posted a picture of the common tourist types that are sold we could compare pictures. I wouldnt blame you if you dont but we could learn a lot from you. Myself, I am always willing to learn and Im sure the other TN members feel the same.

Big guy:

I stand corrected....
And, truly wish to see photos of the common reproductions.
I don't think it will adversly effect the "cottage industry" in Sucre'
who may have "seen me coming"...

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

You are correct that the final verdict is not in but i think our best bet at solving this is lamar. He lives in Bolivia, I believe, and is very knowlegable. I understand you need to see the evidence.

 

[lamar]

Dear group;
Wait a second everyone! How did I get involved in all of this mess anyway? If Capt. Dom wants to know if the item in question is authentic or not, all he needs to do is to examine it carefully under a 10X loupe, especially the grooves along the blade. If there are tooling marks in the grooves, especially where the grooves terminate at, then it's a modern reproduction. This would mean that the stone was shaped using a jeweler's Foredom style high speed grinder (or a Dremel style tool).

If worse comes to worse, I suppose that I could venture downtown with my camera and take some photos of the various *artifacts* being sold on the curbs, but at this point I do not feel that is necessary.
Your friend;
LAMAR

 

[capt dom]

Thank you Lamar!

I will break out my 10X loop and see if I
can see any machining marks.

When it comes to these things I am a rank armature
and don't have a clue what to look for. My skin is a little
"thick" being a bushwhacker of sorts, I am sorry if I hurt anyones
feelings

Thank you Lamar for your observations.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Dear group;
Wait a second everyone! How did I get involved in all of this mess anyway?

Because you are the best qualified to solve this ID LOL.

This would mean that the stone was shaped using a jeweler's Foredom style high speed grinder (or a Dremel style tool).

Dremel? But didnt you say in reply #38 "You may however rest assured that the modern stone *artifacts* are pretty much carved in exactly the same manner as the ancient ones, using almost the exact same crude techniques and methods."

 

[capt dom]

O.K.

I broke out my trusty 10X loop....
{The plot thickens....}

I first a tooth brush and ran the blade end under
hot tap water just to clean the dust out of the perpendicular
grooves along the edges nearest the point.

I then went outside to take advantage of natural light to observe
the grooves......

What I saw next confused me!

I honestly can't tell if any "machining" is present but I did observe some
very interesting "crud" and something that looked an awful lot like very small
barnacles inside one of the grooves!

I am going to take some close up photos - if I can - then post them.
You all can be the judge....

And, Big Cypress Hunter. If your close by - why don't you come and take a look?
I will be glad to have you here in Jupiter, if you are up in Stewart

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

And, Big Cypress Hunter. If your close by - why don't you come and take a look?
I will be glad to have you here in Jupiter, if you are up in Stewart

Thanks Capt for the invitation but I have no knowlege of Incan artifacts. I dont know how I got in the middle of this. I guess I was just trying to help.